The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Rosemary on March 17, 2013, 04:02:23 pm

Title: Sheep housing
Post by: Rosemary on March 17, 2013, 04:02:23 pm
Given the weather this year, the prospect of more of the same if the climate is changing, and the consequent state of some of the pasture, I'm seriously considering housing the ewes next winter, probably from January until lambing in early April.

I've done a bit of reading but any tips would be gratefully received.

Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: woollyval on March 17, 2013, 04:17:51 pm
Sadly its going to be necessary to cut stock numbers due to the climate....I know this will not be popular but I can see a time when 2 sheep tp the acre will be the norm in winter  :-\
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: mmu on March 17, 2013, 04:33:54 pm
We've been thinking along the same lines, and buying up as many sheds as we can.  It's not very technical, but we can't afford a massive wide span which would cover all the sheep, but allow plenty of air to circulate, so we'll just have to compromise.  We're also building an extension to our ancient steading for extra lambing space, as we had to keep them in longer than usual after lambing last year, and got very short of space.  This resulted in smaller pens and a very fuggy atmosphere, and at times, chaos!  We got away with it last year, our only losses being 2 lambs who died from the cold and wet after they eventually went out, but you can't go on pushing your luck. We do need to get on with the extension, as our main lambing is due to start at the end of the month, and we still haven't put the Southdowns out permanently.
 
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: GaddesdenGal on March 17, 2013, 04:39:06 pm
What flooring were you thinking of putting down Rosemary? We're building lambing shed and pens this summer and trying to figure out best layout of flooring and drainage.
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: JMB on March 17, 2013, 04:41:22 pm
You are not alone. We are going to reduce our flock this year and look at housing next winter too.
I'd be interested in any housing ideas. Our hebridean sheep hate being in though so it'll be a challenge maybe
J xxxx
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: SteveHants on March 17, 2013, 05:31:06 pm
Sadly its going to be necessary to cut stock numbers due to the climate....I know this will not be popular but I can see a time when 2 sheep tp the acre will be the norm in winter  :-\


2? I only stock 1.5/ac in winter.


You do realise that now you are going to buy a building that we will have a scorcher this summer and the grass will grow like stink, don't you?  :excited:
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: Rosemary on March 17, 2013, 05:53:52 pm

You do realise that now you are going to buy a building that we will have a scorcher this summer and the grass will grow like stink, don't you?  :excited:

Shhhh - that's my cunning plan  ;D
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: Marches Farmer on March 17, 2013, 05:55:40 pm
Our lambing shed was put up by the previous owner.  It's basically a pole barn with solid sides and a solid back up to about 60cm below the roof.  The front gates are solid up to about 75cm and we tie on 8' x 2' sheets of external ply at the top to keep the worst of the wind out over lambing then take them down for extra air flow when we use the shed for calf-rearing July-December.  It's divided by a post and rail fence into 3 sections and we house the single-bearers in one, twinners in the next and use the smaller section at the end as a nursery shed where the ewes and lambs are kept for a day before turn out so the lambs get used to going back to their dam and not trying to suckle from another ewe.  It's on sloping ground with an earth floor and we straw down generously every day, muck out thoroughly and lime it and leave it to dry before the calves go in.  Works well for us.  The area in front has a thick layer of scalpings so we don't tramp mud into the shed.
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: Fleecewife on March 17, 2013, 06:25:15 pm
Many people house their sheep in polytunnels over winter  :sheep: .  Not the all-over polythene type, but the ones with mesh sides.  Cheap, fairly easy to move and you have the option to grow your tomatoes in there in the summer   :garden:
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: Fowlman on March 17, 2013, 06:38:24 pm
Have you thought about straw bale housing, quick and cheap and can be dismatled when finished with.
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: Marches Farmer on March 17, 2013, 07:46:56 pm
Many people house their sheep in polytunnels over winter  :sheep: .  Not the all-over polythene type, but the ones with mesh sides.  Cheap, fairly easy to move and you have the option to grow your tomatoes in there in the summer   :garden:

You have to be prepared to keep the top reasonably clear if it's snowing or the tunnel may collapse - happened to a friend of ours last year.
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: Herdygirl on March 17, 2013, 08:31:06 pm
My OH has put up a pole barn with a corrugated steel roof with guttering that drains any rain into a large water butt, and dustbin. We have mesh for the sides to keep out the worst of the weather and so have no condensation build up, the temperature is the same inside as outside.  It is surprising how well the mesh performs! Even in very windy weather!

Wooden hurdles are around the perimeter and we use the same for a hay bar and to move pens around as we need to.  We thoroughly muck out every week and put plenty of straw down on the earth floor.  the 60 odd girls we have in there seem quite calm and happy if a bit short of space, but they take turns at the water buckets, licks etc.  It seems to be working......but time will tell.


Gill
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: Cosmo on March 17, 2013, 08:51:16 pm
I have heard of mesh from Galebraker that let's a steady airflow in but no wind or rain, has anyone had these?
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: mojocafa on March 18, 2013, 06:55:01 am
Do you need planning permission for these barns/shelters?
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: mmu on March 18, 2013, 10:38:57 am
PP depends on the size, can't remember what it is, but is easy to find on .gov  There are some really good ideas here, like the mesh, will have to investigate.  I was going to use ordinary garden windbreak on our pollytunnel, if it ever happens.
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: Rosemary on March 18, 2013, 11:18:56 am
Do you need planning permission for these barns/shelters?

Different rules apply if it's an agricultural building. This is the advice I got from a planner a few years ago.

"Rosemary, the tests of whether PP is required in this case are basically:
Is the building for an agri purpose on an agri unit  of more than 0.4Ha?
Would the building plus any others erected in the last 2 years exceed 265sqm?
Would any part of the building be within 25m of a metalled portion of a classified road?
Would the height of the building exceed 12m?

If the answer is NO to all of these questions, then no PP is required.  Hope that helps. "

Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: Fleecewife on March 18, 2013, 11:23:57 am
Although all those criteria apply, we found the planners still want you to let them know what you are doing and let them make the decision as to whether you need PP.  Keeps them sweet, and also they like to be in the know if someone comes to complain.
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: Bionic on March 18, 2013, 11:52:03 am
I just wondered if you keep them inside for an extended period what about exercise?  I suppose you could buy them a treadmill  :roflanim:
Seriously though is it an issue?
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: lachlanandmarcus on March 18, 2013, 12:10:57 pm
Do you need planning permission for these barns/shelters?

Different rules apply if it's an agricultural building. This is the advice I got from a planner a few years ago.

"Rosemary, the tests of whether PP is required in this case are basically:
Is the building for an agri purpose on an agri unit  of more than 0.4Ha?
Would the building plus any others erected in the last 2 years exceed 265sqm?
Would any part of the building be within 25m of a metalled portion of a classified road?
Would the height of the building exceed 12m?

If the answer is NO to all of these questions, then no PP is required.  Hope that helps. "


I think this is all true but applies to holdings over 5 hectares, there are much more restricted circumstances where agricultural prenotification applies  for smaller holdings., you have to prove the agricultural justification for the building rather than it being assumed as it is with holdings over 5 hectares. Also unless you do the notice to council and the small fee and wait the 28 days, you can't benefit from it retrospectively later and will have to apply for PP instead, which some people don't realise.




Also (last caveat) building regs will apply in many cases esp where drainage of waste water or rainwateris involved as it would be for a livestock building. If it were just storage then a fairly modest building (upper limit is deptermined by volume, would equate to approx 60x40 foot building about 12 foot to eaves ) can escape building regs, which is useful as the fee for a building warrant is usually a lot more than for PP, but this exemption is only for storage type buildings.


There is a slight niggle in the back of my mind that is also querying whether you can use agricultural notice planning exemption for livestock housing buildings at all, but I haven't been able to track down anything recent on this.

Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: feldar on March 18, 2013, 12:21:28 pm
Yes it can be an issue an in-lamb ewe stuffing herself on hay or silage will get fat and potentially have lambing problems. I think housing ewes can be as much work if not more than leaving outside but it can be being caught between a rock and a hard place :-\
We have housed all our early lambers since two weeks before they lamb and if not for the SBV we 've had a good season, our late lambers usually stay out and lamb out, but this year we lambed them earlier and they came in because the weather was so bad and again we had the best March lambing we ever had.
But saying that ewes don't like being in much and they do look tired in their fleece after a while. Sheds and barns can be too  warm and the risk of disease like pnuemonia high. Plus you have to clean it out afterwards, or risk disease next year. That needs a tractor or a very willing workforce, Trust me i know cleaning a deep litter barn by hand is yuk.
So swings and roundabouts But got to be better than standing in deep mud!!
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: Tala Orchard on March 18, 2013, 01:20:03 pm
For livestock buildings for housing you will require PP in England and Wales not sure abut NI or Scotland.

For temp housing of pregnant animals or sick animals you can use General Permitted Developement under the Town and Country Planning Act 1995, Part 6
PART 6
AGRICULTURAL BUILDINGS AND OPERATIONS

Class A Development on units of 5 hectares or more

A.    Permitted development

The carrying out on agricultural land comprised in an agricultural unit of 5 hectares or more in area of—

(a)works for the erection, extension or alteration of a building; or
(b)any excavation or engineering operations, which are reasonably necessary for the purposes of agriculture within that unit.

A.1    Development not permitted

Development is not permitted by Class A if—

(a)the development would be carried out on a separate parcel of land forming part of the unit which is less than 1 hectare in area;
(b)it would consist of, or include, the erection, extension or alteration of a dwelling;
(c)it would involve the provision of a building, structure or works not designed for agricultural purposes;
(d)the ground area which would be covered by—
(i)any works or structure (other than a fence) for accommodating livestock or any plant or machinery arising from engineering operations; or
(ii)any building erected or extended or altered by virtue of Class A,would exceed 465 square metres, calculated as described in paragraph D.2 below;
(e)the height of any part of any building, structure or works within 3 kilometres of the perimeter of an aerodrome would exceed 3 metres;
(f)the height of any part of any building, structure or works not within 3 kilometres of the perimeter of an aerodrome would exceed 12 metres;
(g)any part of the development would be within 25 metres of a metalled part of a trunk road or classified road;
(h)it would consist of, or include, the erection or construction of, or the carrying out of any works to, a building, structure or an excavation used or to be used for the accommodation of livestock or for the storage of slurry or sewage sludge where the building, structure or excavation is, or would be, within 400 metres of the curtilage of a protected building; or
(i)it would involve excavations or engineering operations on or over article 1(6) land which are connected with fish farming.
A.2.    Conditions

A.2.

(1) Development is permitted by Class A subject to the following conditions—

(a)where development is carried out within 400 metres of the curtilage of a protected building, any building, structure, excavation or works resulting from the development shall not be used for the accommodation of livestock except in the circumstances described in paragraph D.3 below or for the storage of slurry or sewage sludge;
(b)where the development involves—
(i)the extraction of any mineral from the land (including removal from any disused railway embankment); or
(ii)the removal of any mineral from a mineral-working deposit,the mineral shall not be moved off the unit;
(c)waste materials shall not be brought on to the land from elsewhere for deposit except for use in works described in Class A(a) or in the provision of a hard surface and any materials so brought shall be incorporated forthwith into the building or works in question.
(2) Subject to paragraph (3), development consisting of—

(a)the erection, extension or alteration of a building;
(b)the formation or alteration of a private way;
(c)the carrying out of excavations or the deposit of waste material (where the relevant area, as defined in paragraph D.4 below, exceeds 0.5 hectare); or
(d)the placing or assembly of a tank in any waters,
is permitted by Class A subject to the following conditions—

(i)the developer shall, before beginning the development, apply to the local planning authority for a determination as to whether the prior approval of the authority will be required to the siting, design and external appearance of the building, the siting and means of construction of the private way, the siting of the excavation or deposit or the siting and appearance of the tank, as the case may be;
(ii)the application shall be accompanied by a written description of the proposed development and of the materials to be used and a plan indicating the site together with any fee required to be paid;
(iii)the development shall not be begun before the occurrence of one of the following—
(aa)the receipt by the applicant from the local planning authority of a written notice of their determination that such prior approval is not required;
(bb)where the local planning authority give the applicant notice within 28 days following the date of receiving his application of their determination that such prior approval is required, the giving of such approval; or
(cc)the expiry of 28 days following the date on which the application was received by the local planning authority without the local planning authority making any determination as to whether such approval is required or notifying the applicant of their determination;
(iv)(aa)where the local planning authority give the applicant notice that such prior approval is required the applicant shall display a site notice by site display on or near the land on which the proposed development is to be carried out, leaving the notice in position for not less than 21 days in the period of 28 days from the date on which the local planning authority gave the notice to the applicant;
(bb)where the site notice is, without any fault or intention of the applicant, removed, obscured or defaced before the period of 21 days referred to in sub-paragraph (aa) has elapsed, he shall be treated as having complied with the requirements of that sub-paragraph if he has taken reasonable steps for protection of the notice and, if need be, its replacement;
(v)the development shall, except to the extent that the local planning authority otherwise agree in writing, be carried out—
(aa)where prior approval is required, in accordance with the details approved;
(bb)where prior approval is not required, in accordance with the details submitted with the application; and
(vi)the development shall be carried out—
(aa)where approval has been given by the local planning authority, within a period of five years from the date on which approval was given;
(bb)in any other case, within a period of five years from the date on which the local planning authority were given the information referred to in sub-paragraph (d)(ii).
(3) The conditions in paragraph (2) do not apply to the extension or alteration of a building if the building is not on article 1(6) land except in the case of a significant extension or a significant alteration.

(4) Development consisting of the significant extension or the significant alteration of a building may only be carried out once by virtue of Class A(a).


D.1    Interpretation of Part 6

For the purposes of Part 6—

“agricultural land” means land which, before development permitted by this Part is carried out, is land in use for agriculture and which is so used for the purposes of a trade or business, and excludes any dwellinghouse or garden;
“agricultural unit” means agricultural land which is occupied as a unit for the purposes of agriculture, including—
(a)any dwelling or other building on that land occupied for the purpose of farming the land by the person who occupies the unit, or
(b)any dwelling on that land occupied by a farmworker;
“building” does not include anything resulting from engineering operations;
“fish farming” means the breeding, rearing or keeping of fish or shellfish (which includes any kind of crustacean and mollusc);
“livestock” includes fish or shellfish which are farmed;
“protected building” means any permanent building which is normally occupied by people or would be so occupied, if it were in use for purposes for which it is apt; but does not include—
(i)a building within the agricultural unit; or
(ii)a dwelling or other building on another agricultural unit which is used for or in connection with agriculture;
“significant extension” and “significant alteration” mean any extension or alteration of the building where the cubic content of the original building would be exceeded by more than 10% or the height of the building as extended or altered would exceed the height of the original building;
“slurry” means animal faeces and urine (whether or not water has been added for handling); and
“tank” includes any cage and any other structure for use in fish farming.
For the purposes of Part 6—

(a)an area calculated as described in this paragraph comprises the ground area which would be covered by the proposed development, together with the ground area of any building (other than a dwelling), or any structure, works, plant, machinery, ponds or tanks within the same unit which are being provided or have been provided within the preceding two years and any part of which would be within 90 metres of the proposed development;
(b)400 metres is to be measured along the ground.
The circumstances referred to in paragraphs A.2(1)(a) and B.5 are—

(a)that no other suitable building or structure, 400 metres or more from the curtilage of a protected building, is available to accommodate the livestock; and
(b)(i)that the need to accommodate the livestock arises from—
(aa)quarantine requirements; or
(bb)an emergency due to another building or structure in which the livestock could otherwise be accommodated being unavailable because it has been damaged or destroyed by fire, flood or storm; or
(ii)in the case of animals normally kept out of doors, they require temporary accommodation in a building or other structure—
(aa)because they are sick or giving birth or newly born; or
(bb)to provide shelter against extreme weather conditions.
For the purposes of paragraph A.2(2)(c), the relevant area is the area of the proposed excavation or the area on which it is proposed to deposit waste together with the aggregate of the areas of all other excavations within the unit which have not been filled and of all other parts of the unit on or under which waste has been deposited and has not been removed.

In paragraph A.2(2)(iv), “site notice” means a notice containing—

(a)the name of the applicant,
(b)the address or location of the proposed development,
(c)a description of the proposed development and of the materials to be used,
(d)a statement that the prior approval of the authority will be required to the siting, design and external appearance of the building, the siting and means of construction of the private way, the siting of the excavation or deposit or the siting and appearance of the tank, as the case may be,
(e)the name and address of the local planning authority,
and which is signed and dated by or on behalf of the applicant.


Basically if you want to house sick and pregnant animals you can build a barn under GPDO this will cost £80.00 simple application form, hope this is of help

Tala

Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: SteveHants on March 18, 2013, 01:28:32 pm
I'm also of the opinion that pregnant ewes need to wander about - I'm not sure how good for them keeping them in all winter would be. My attempt to address the poor weather this year was to lamb on the 18th Apr as opposed to the 1st or thereabouts which is when I usually lamb. I wont be able to tell you whether that was a good idea or not for a month or so though.  ;D
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: shep53 on March 18, 2013, 07:46:19 pm
I just wondered if you keep them inside for an extended period what about exercise?  I suppose you could buy them a treadmill  :roflanim:
Seriously though is it an issue?
                                                                                                                                                             You would be surprised how much exercise sheep get inside they don't just eat and sleep !   This year inside from early feb  until lambed , in a very wet year can be in from early jan  , i have tupped ewe lambs inside in dec and kept them in until lambing in may , feet are the only problem, shed is very open
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: Rosemary on March 18, 2013, 08:12:41 pm
Ours aren't getting much exercise OUTSIDE - they spend most of their time huddled in the field shelter  :gloomy:
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: Pasture Farm on March 18, 2013, 09:23:09 pm
This is exactly the way i am thinking of going next year i keep 40-50 breeding ewes on 20 good grass acres but this year the 5 acre field nearest to the house with the barn on looks as though it has had horses on all year  :(   im considering digging down 18" and filling with chalk for drainage then keeping the sheep on straw untill april but feeding will be a fine art and i will also have to store the hay outside.
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: Herdygirl on March 18, 2013, 09:41:19 pm
As i have spent a fair amount of my free time (?) watching my sheep, i notice that they do spend a fair time wandering about the barn, apart from around 12 til 4pm, it's seista time!  unless they want a drink. They also settle down around 7pm for the night as they would in the field.

Despite what neighbouring farmers have said on bringing them in more than a week before lambing (that they get sore feet) i find that on good dry straw,mucked out regularly,  that i have less limpers than i would normally have at this time of year. And if there is, because they are relaxed i can do a quick trim with them standing up with no stress to me or sheep!  ;)
Title: Re: Sheep housing
Post by: feldar on March 19, 2013, 09:04:26 am
Ours aren't getting much exercise OUTSIDE - they spend most of their time huddled in the field shelter  :gloomy:
Bless em!  bring them in, they'll love you more for it :innocent:  poor babies