The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Smallholding => Buildings & planning => Topic started by: edessex on March 03, 2013, 04:17:50 pm

Title: Shed Repairs?
Post by: edessex on March 03, 2013, 04:17:50 pm
I have a shed that is in very bad condition, I was going to replace, but it looks like I would need planning permission for that.

The shed's roof has pretty much collapsed, the floor is rotten, and the whole thing leans backwards.


What is the cheapest way to replace the roof?  Board and felt, platic sheets, or roofing sheets?

How do I replace the floor without removing the sides?

What is the best way to bring back some structure and stop it leaning?  I was thinking a couple of diagonal struts inside might work?

Other than enviromental issues, what is the downside to treating the wood with used engine oil?  Will it make it much more of a fire hazard?
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: lachlanandmarcus on March 03, 2013, 05:21:19 pm
Why would you need pp to replace an existing structure like for like?
I would take lots of photos incl ones showing measurements and then replace it.



If not, then the lightest easy DIY roof material is probably onduline with a lining of OSB board under neath.
If the floor is under the walls and rotten then I don't see any way round doing that properly without taking the walls down.


If it is only leaning a tiny bit then acro props and scaffold boards against the wall might help, diagonal bracing would help to prevent lean but would be unlikely to cure a substantial lean once it starts.
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: edessex on March 03, 2013, 05:47:32 pm
Its agricultural land, not residental, and under 0.4ha so basically I have no building rights without PP, including sheds!

I'm assuming the floor goes under the walls, and the lean is about 20 degrees at a guess, but pushes back upright by brute force...
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: lachlanandmarcus on March 03, 2013, 05:56:49 pm
But you aren't building a new one just replacing like for like - definitely check out  with your LA as although I agree you would def need pp for any new building, this if it is a straight replacement isn't creating any new structure that wasn't there before.



Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: Tala Orchard on March 03, 2013, 06:45:52 pm
The following applies for under 5ha.

The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Order 1995
[/b]

Class B Development on units of less than 5 hectares

B.    Permitted development

The carrying out on agricultural land comprised in an agricultural unit of not less than 0.4 but less than 5 hectares in area of development consisting of—

(a)the extension or alteration of an agricultural building;
(b)the installation of additional or replacement plant or machinery;
(c)the provision, rearrangement or replacement of a sewer, main, pipe, cable or other apparatus;
(d)the provision, rearrangement or replacement of a private way;
(e)the provision of a hard surface;
(f)the deposit of waste; or
(g)the carrying out of any of the following operations in connection with fish farming, namely, repairing ponds and raceways; the installation of grading machinery, aeration equipment or flow meters and any associated channel; the dredging of ponds; and the replacement of tanks and nets,
where the development is reasonably necessary for the purposes of agriculture within the unit.


So from reading this surely you can make the repair under TTCP Act  Schedule 2 part 6 para B. as you are making an alteration to an existing agricultural building in that repairing the building is fine. as from what you are saying the walls are fine other than a lean. So you are going to repair the roof and floor and to do so you will need to remove the walls as lomg as you do use the same walls again I cannnot see any reason that you cannot use this section.

Tala
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: edessex on March 03, 2013, 07:09:33 pm
But that states 'not less than 0.4'...

Mine IS less than 0.4...
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: Tala Orchard on March 03, 2013, 07:20:16 pm
Sorry miss read your post, but still feel that you could repair it without PP, provided you do not demolish the shed to repair it. BTW what size shed are we talking about?

Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: edessex on March 03, 2013, 09:08:25 pm
That is the plan: repair not replace.  ...as that seems my only option!

The worst shed is only 5x6, but a shed is a shed!
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: Womble on March 04, 2013, 07:32:55 am
A shed is a shed Ed....... unless it's a moveable agricultural building?  ;D

We have a 6x4 shed built on a heavy plywood base with timber runners underneath. It can easily be towed about behind the Landy, or manually on rollers. Worth a thought perhaps?
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: Backinwellies on March 04, 2013, 08:33:05 am
I can't really see there being a problem replacing old with new on same floor area.... no planner is likey to object to it looking less of an eyesaw as long as you dont extend in any direction... though it should look similar ie same colour/materiels.   I'm with the suggestion check it out unofficially and keep proof with photos.

Alternative as womble says a 'moveable' shed is not a shed!
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: nicandem on March 04, 2013, 09:17:24 am
there is nothing wrong with moving the roof and walls out of the way so that you can repair the floor. then replace the walls and floor...whilst you do so, replace any of the rotten wood..... :innocent:
I needed pp to replace one building (due to being forward of building line) but not to REPAIR as above as was pointed out in a very helpful way by the LA officer :thumbsup: .... now done with concrete floor, etc :excited:


if it doesnt look worse/bigger/more intrusive than the old one and you haven't pi**ed your neighbours right off.... how will they know?
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: bazzais on March 04, 2013, 11:35:25 am
When I bought the farm here - the owner had sold previously a corner of one field with an old hay barn in it to another fellow.

The other fellow cant get planning to rebuild the structure as his land is really small too - ultimately he doesnt live here either.

All that was left of the old barn was the uprights - and I have been told this was the key.

If you have a structure with at least 1.5 meters of wall and a little bit of roof - even if it has fallen in - you can repair it as you like without planning.

The best course of action I would suggest is ask your neighbours if you have any if they have any objections - if they dont - just rebuild and dont involve the planners at all.

Wing it.

Baz
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: edessex on March 04, 2013, 12:39:47 pm
The neighbour will have issues with whatever I do, as he is trying to force me to sell him the land. So whatever I do must be done
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: edessex on March 04, 2013, 12:40:23 pm
...legally.

(phone cut off last word!)
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: lachlanandmarcus on March 04, 2013, 01:11:57 pm
I would get some scaffolding in to support the walls then take off the roof and take out the floor and then replace the floor with new walls inside the old ones and new roof/ Taking photos all the way.
Neighbour wont be able to do anything, its repair of an existing building, no PP needed.
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: bazzais on March 04, 2013, 02:54:56 pm
Good call - I fell foul of this ruling by replacing one of my sheds after the slab had become unstable - I removed all the structure and rebuilt from the ground up - if I had just put a structure around the original one it would have been classed as a repair.
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: edessex on March 04, 2013, 03:46:55 pm
Other than the lean the walls are in usable condition, one needs some planks replaced as they were ripped off in a break in.

I was wondering if it is worth replacing the roof first (as it will add some structure), and reinforce the structure of the walls, and somehow jacking up the shed or tilting if forward to slip a pre-made floor in under it...
Would that sound all legal and logical?
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: lachlanandmarcus on March 04, 2013, 05:09:53 pm
It sounds very sensible and potentially quite doable.
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: goosepimple on March 04, 2013, 05:26:54 pm
you are allowed to replace in a 'mend' situation, so if you're replacing like with like then you won't need PP.  Alternatively you could always build one 'inside' the existing and gradually peel away the outer leaf  ;)
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: edessex on March 05, 2013, 10:23:15 am
Ok, so I've got the plan of how to do it... Now, what is the cheapest material to use?

lachlanandmarcus suggested plyboard and onduline for the roof... I did look at some onduline in Homebase, and was tempted with it, but to fix straight to the 'rafters', then fill the gaps with foam or something similar to stop the birds getting in.
If I'm plyboarding it I might as well felt it...

Any other suggestions?

I'm guessing plyboard is my best option for the floor as well?
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: bazzais on March 05, 2013, 10:52:27 am
See if you can get marine plywood from china - its ace stuff ;) and cheaper to ship it over than buying anything else - think it has to do with the total lack of health and safety with the chems used in china ;)
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: lachlanandmarcus on March 05, 2013, 11:45:32 am
Ok, so I've got the plan of how to do it... Now, what is the cheapest material to use?

lachlanandmarcus suggested plyboard and onduline for the roof... I did look at some onduline in Homebase, and was tempted with it, but to fix straight to the 'rafters', then fill the gaps with foam or something similar to stop the birds getting in.
If I'm plyboarding it I might as well felt it...

Any other suggestions?

I'm guessing plyboard is my best option for the floor as well?


Plywood to me would suggest a layered material of thin layers of solid wood. I was thinking more of OSB board which is cheaper, pressed together bits of wood, like very large chips chipboard.


The issue with felting is that it isn't that long lasting at the folds/ corners. I def wouldn't use onduline without a board beneath as it may sag. The stopping up of all the gaps with foam would likely mean condensation and damp.
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: benkt on March 05, 2013, 12:01:25 pm
onduline is all right without boards under so long as you have a proper pitch to it, say > 15 degrees. For a shed that seems unlikely, as their roofs are usually pretty flat, in which case put some board under it - I use shuttering ply as its fairly weather proof and fairly cheap.
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: edessex on March 05, 2013, 06:58:05 pm

Plywood to me would suggest a layered material of thin layers of solid wood. I was thinking more of OSB board which is cheaper, pressed together bits of wood, like very large chips chipboard.

Yes sorry that's what I meant, always end up referring to it as ply for some reason!

One of my sheds had thick felt on it, and that lasted about 5 years, until a rubbing tree snagged it and let water in...  My worry with board and then onduline is mice nesting in the gaps...
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: lachlanandmarcus on March 05, 2013, 07:30:05 pm

Plywood to me would suggest a layered material of thin layers of solid wood. I was thinking more of OSB board which is cheaper, pressed together bits of wood, like very large chips chipboard.

Yes sorry that's what I meant, always end up referring to it as ply for some reason!

One of my sheds had thick felt on it, and that lasted about 5 years, until a rubbing tree snagged it and let water in...  My worry with board and then onduline is mice nesting in the gaps...
I havent had and issue with it but if the shed is for storage (ours is stables so want plenty of ventilation on top of the front and back vents in the mini barn) then you can get foam strips that onduline supply which fit the profile of the sheets perfectly (but are also removeable meaning you can reuse the onduline sheets in the future if you decided to). They are pretty cheap to buy two and will look much better and no trimming of madly escaping foam :-DDDDD
http://www.roofingsuperstore.co.uk/product/coroline-corrugated-bitumen-roof-eaves-fillers-pack-of-6-pack-of-4.html (http://www.roofingsuperstore.co.uk/product/coroline-corrugated-bitumen-roof-eaves-fillers-pack-of-6-pack-of-4.html)
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: bazzais on March 07, 2013, 01:21:26 am
OSB is a nightmare if it gets wet - so can be cheap ply - but marine ply will stand upto alot more than OSB  - its also more rigid so it would mean less supporting framework (in my world of bodge jobbing anyway)

Baz
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: goosepimple on March 07, 2013, 10:23:46 am
You also get wbp ply which is water and boil proof ply.  If it's for a roof, don't do thinks cheaply you will live to regret it  :tired:
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: edessex on March 07, 2013, 11:40:31 am
I've had a quick look at prices for boards at Wickes (as there is one down the road), marine ply is a bit more than I want to spend.  OSB is a tad better.

If I use OSB, would treating it beforehand help?
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: deepinthewoods on March 07, 2013, 01:14:50 pm
first rule.

DONT GO TO WICKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

unless your minted.
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: bloomer on March 07, 2013, 01:29:56 pm
first rule.

DONT GO TO WICKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

unless your minted.


like button required


find a proper timber yard, shop around you'll be amazed how much cheaper they are than any of the big metal shed diy stores!!!
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: edessex on March 07, 2013, 02:23:24 pm
I just checked Wickes as a guide.  There is a TP local, but mainly does aggrigates I think, and a Ridgeons not too far away.  Other than that I've got to travel a fair way...
Title: Re: Shed Repairs?
Post by: deepinthewoods on March 07, 2013, 03:38:14 pm
tp is expensive too, unless you have an account, they have a cheaper affiliate buisness called keyline, look for one of them. if you register with your postcode youll get a discount too.

always negotiate!!