The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Remy on February 19, 2013, 09:48:59 pm
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When I went to feed the ewes this morning one of my faves (an orphan I call Susie Sheep) was lying down. She got up when I dished out the haylage but then collapsed onto my feet. She couldn't stand easily and was salivating, so she was brought up to the house and stabled. I immediately gave her Alamycin LA in case of pneumonia but was also wondering if it could be a calcium problem as she is supposed to be pregnant due early March, this has not been confirmed. So I have given her a dose of calciject and also twin lamb drench just in case! I've propped her up by a bale with water, hay and mix in front of her and praying she doesn't succumb ... :-\
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Oh no hun :-[
Is she eating and drinking?
Scouring or constipated (in my experience ewes with TL are constipated)
Does her breath smell?
Is she vaccinated?
Temperature?
Anything in the paddock that shouldn't be? Hedge trimmings etc
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:hug: Hope she picks up :(
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She's still with us but no improvement, not eating just drooling with laboured breathing, I'm sure it must be pneumonia as she hasn't responded to the TL drench or calciject. She has laboured breathing and was attempting to drink when I put the water under her chin but not sure she was swallowing ..
She is not scouring and I did also notice a little discharge from her vulva, although lambs are not due till 5 March.
All sheep were vaccinated on 1st Jan.
Is there anything else I can do? :(
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I would say dribbling is Hypocalcaemia. How much caliject did you give?
What's her temperature, and are her ears cold?
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The bottle said between 50 and 80ml, I gave 50ml as she's not a very big sheep
Her ears are cold yes, haven't taken her temp as I can't find the thermometer! I'm going out shortly and will get one.
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I would inject again, another 50ml split over a few sites.
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Her breath will smell like peardrops if it's TLD. She may lose the lambs but that will take the burden off her system and she'll likely survive.
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Calcijet, or the wrong Calcijet, when the sheep is not low on calcium can be fatal, so take care with that.
Our vets wrote up the correct treatment regime for pre-lambing and post-lambing metabolic disorders, which I copied here (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=12927.msg136877#msg136877). I'm afraid I haven't been able to confirm that the Dunlops numbers and top colours are the same as the Calcijet ones - anyone else know for sure?
I don't think you can do any harm with a twin lamb drench, so I'd give her a dose of that.
:fc:
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Sally, I didnt understand your bottle numbers on that post - I've never seen a green top. We use the Norbrook ones, so they are:
No 3 Red Top
Calciject
Calcium 5.92g
(provided by Calcium Gluconate and Calcium Borogluconate)
[size=78%]Magnesium 1.85g[/size]
(provided by Magnesium Hypophosphite)
No 6 Blue Top
Calciject
Calcium Borogluconate 20% w/v
Magnesium Hypophosphite Hexahydrate 5% w/v
Glucose Monohydrate 22% w/v.
No 9 Black Top
Magniject
Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate 25% w/v
Equivalent to Magnesium Sulphate anhydrous 12.21% w/v
I use No6.
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I suspect the numbers and colours are the same in all the different products.
First dose is always No6 Blue Top; according to my vet, there's no point in a second No6 Blue Top in a pre-lamber.
In a pre-lambing scenario, you would switch to the No2 Green Top after the initial No6 Blue Top; post-lambing you just use No6 Blue Top.
If you don't have a Green Top, and your pre-lamber doesn't rally after the initial No6 Blue Top, perhaps it's best to ask your own vet for advice on further treatment.
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What's in your No2 green top? Could that be the No3 Red top equivalent?
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Ahhh, green top No2 is a Norbrook one (calcium only) ... but it's listed for Cattle only, not sheep. The ones I listed are the only ones for sheep (according to Norbrook)
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Wow....learning lots...thanks :thumbsup:
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Yeah, I will have to get myself some green top in stock. Incidentally, the Nadis docs confirm the use of No2 green 40% for sheep too. How odd that the bottle itself doesn't say sheep on it.
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Guys, have spoken with Remy and suggested it may be pneumonia as Susie is defecating and weeing so likely NOT Hypocalcaemia (I confess I didn't realise it could be dangerous to give calcium injectiions to a ewe who hasn't low levels-good thing to know and sounds like Remy has done right thing with a low dose). We had discussed Twin Lamb drench and concluded it could do no harm. My previous experience of a pregnant ewe with pneumonia was five days worth of antibiotics and steroids every other day (three doses in total). She did lose the lambs but regained her health and has gone on to lamb exceptionally well. Would you concur with the same treatment for this ewe?
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We use Draxxin for pneumonia, should only need one jab of this as it gives around 9 days cover, would also be very careful about giving any fluid drenches to a sheep with pneumonia until they start to pick up with the antibiotics. Hope she makes a good recovery Remy. :fc:
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We had a bit of pneumonia in one batch earlier in the winter, lost a couple of ewes. :'( Our vet prescribed Hexasol (yes, for pneumonia in sheep) - and we saved those who got a jag of that. We also fluked and wormed the whole batch, even though they shouldn't have been wormy in winter and they'd been fluked fairly recently (with a different flukicide) which I suspect is why we didn't get another case.
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Interesting Sally, so do you think fluke could have been the trigger? We hadn't seen any pneumonia cases in the flock until last year, I had put it down to the weather in the lambs, we had 3 ram lambs go down with it last winter/spring and, we lost one of them, they were too young I think for it to have been fluke. We also had ram go down with it in the autumn, I think the rams had been fighting so put that was possibly the trigger in his case, but potentially could have been fluke due to the wet year.
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Remy, when we had a sheep die of rhodedendron poisoning last year, I explained the symptoms and it seems foaming at the mouth is only one of two things - poisoning or pneumonia.
Good luck with her Remy, try not to stress :fc:
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Blacksheep, we had an abbatoir report showing that 26/29 2012 lambs had fluke in their livers in August. These were March/April born, ie., 4-5 months old and it was "summer"!
Last year was a dreadful year for both fluke and worms - never cold enough to kill the worms and never warm and dry enough to stop the fluke.
In addition, there are starting to be reports of resistance to flukicides in our area.
So yes, we think the ewes were pulled down by the long wet summer, by a bigger worm and fluke burden than usual, and so a lot less able to fight off disease such as pneumonia. Not to mention that the abbatoir had reported lungworm in 13 of those lambs too - the already physiologically stressed animals were succumbing to a parasite that normally isn't a problem.
Let's hope this year has a bit more in the way of seasons.
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Posting on behalf of Remy who's internet is down. Her ewe is now bloated, flat out on her side with legs outstretched which to me is a classic stance of hypomagnesaemia. She's shakey, weak, drooling also. Her vet advised another Calciject dose so she's had 200ml overall now and is worried that she's given too much and if this is any reason for the bloat. She's going to try Magniject injections. I wondered if a little gentle massage to disperse any accumulated gasses may help and maybe to prop Susie up so not too much pressure on either her organs or her babies. Susie is peeing and pooing and has had twin lamb drench as you know but she wasn't holding her head high as indicative of twin lamb disease. It won't have done any harm though, but I'm not so sure about the Calciject in such a high dose, especially after seeing Sally's earlier posting. If you could respond please people and I'll pass on any concerns/advice to her.
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For bloat generally we might try bicarb of soda, live (probiotic) yoghurt, oil (sunflower/vegetable or paraffin), & ginger. Massaging yes, you need to see the rumen wave recommence.
If she's laid out flat, make sure the rumen is upppermost (left side up, in other words.) But yes, it's best to get her on her brisket or even stood up - I've used hurdles, padded with fleeces, laid across straw bales, legs poked through the gaps, bales either side to support, before now.
It's a very good sign that she's pooing and peeing. Don't give up yet. Try to control the bloat - if you can get her burping again, and a good rumen wave reestablished, things would look even better.
:fc: Tell Remy we're rooting for her - and Susie :-*
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Have passed that on Sally, thanks. Poor Remy is so dispairing, she's had so many sheepy disasters this last year she's seriously considering giving up. I wondered if a last ditch steroid injection was worth while but Remy hasn't anything available only some 'old prednisalone tablets'.
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:hug: to Remy. Hope Susie makes it. It really does make you despair when everything seems to go wrong with your flock, with one thing after another making it seem that it really is not worth the stress and tears. I think there are probably a few of us who have felt the same, I know I have. Unfortunately there always seems to be something going on with sheep and the saying that a sheeps main aim in life seems to be to drop dead, certainly seems to have a lot of truth in it. Please tell Remy to keep her chin up and hopefully all the good vibes all TAS forum users are sending her way will help towards a much brighter future for Remy and her flock. :-*
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Susie has died :'( . I'm sure Remy will be back online soon but she said to say thanks for all the good wishes and your help.
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Oh no :'( after all her efforts. It is so sad. Sending :hug: :hug: to Remy.
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She's having a darn good cry. Poor love.
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Is anyone close enough to Remy to go give her sheep a once-over - in case there's something an external eye might spot?
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I know Roxy knows her well and sees her at horse shows but don't know of anyone close. I think that's half the problem in that she feels so alone in it all.
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:bouquet: for Susie - very sad. :hug:to Remy. Where does Remy live - I'm Bristol area but very close to M5 motorway access if down South or Gloucester way?
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She's Shrewsbury way.
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shes stayed with us a few times, feel for her at this time.
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I'm just outside Shrewsbury but am a complete novice with sheep - only in my first year - so wouldn't be any help looking over the flock.
Poor Remy, and poor Susie :'( I hope things improve soon
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I think the thing you always have to keep in the back of your mind with sheep is that they are a prey animal and therefore pre-programmed NOT to show any sign of weakness so that the wolf won't pick on them as its next dinner. That's why it sometimes seems that you spot a problem too late to do anything constructive.
This last year has been so hard for all classes of stock - higher than usual losses reported in even the biggest and best flocks and herds around here.
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:bouquet: So sorry.
Good idea for someone to look over the flock if she thought it might help. Fresh eyes are always a good idea I think. I'm not too far from Shrewsbury but in no way am I experienced enough to help. Always worry that I'll miss things in my own flock and its care that others might see.
Hope someone can help. That feeling of despair with your animals is so miserable. :hug:
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Remy - so sorry to hear that Susie died. It is so upsetting when you've tried your hardest and you always just hope that next time you go to see your sheep there might just be a small improvement. Don't give up, you've obviously got lots of love to give to your sheep.
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I would say that unless someone experienced comes forward soon, it is worth one of you guys who are saying you are "not experienced enough" but are nearby to go and see Remy and her sheep. Firstly, I bet you know a lot more than you realise, and secondly, a second pair of eyes - and hands, get your hands on one or two of them too, if you can, to see how their condition feels as well as looks - is always helpful.
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Ditto what Sally says.
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She's still with us but no improvement, not eating just drooling with laboured breathing, I'm sure it must be pneumonia as she hasn't responded to the TL drench or calciject. She has laboured breathing and was attempting to drink when I put the water under her chin but not sure she was swallowing ..
Sorry I'm a bit late to this thread and very sorry to hear your ewe has died.
Reading above, drooling rather than foaming from the mouth indicate (IMO) Listeriosis. I have lost two ewes myself to it recently in spite of spotting it very early, seeking veterinary advice and treating aggressively with antibiotics. It's a horrible disease.
(sorry don't know what has happened with the quote?)
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so sorry to read that Susie didn't make it.
I am not sure if Remy is having a pm done this time but I think it can be worth asking at the rendering place if they can take a look, if we lose any sheep we have found that they will have a look and can tell you if it is pneumonia, about the state of the liver, parasites etc and they don't charge us anything for this.
We are in South Shropshire and have sold lambs to Remy in the past and would be happy to visit later in the year if Remy wanted us to ( I currently have a broken leg and so my OH is busy coping with lambing on his own at the moment so could not visit for a few weeks). However Remy is very experienced with keeping sheep so I am not sure whether or not we could help at all and have been in contact with Remy previously over some of the problems, OH is an experienced ecologist and would be able to identify any native plants that may be a poisonous, but the pms that Remy have had done have shown heavy parasite burdens and pneumonia.
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If anyone near me fancies going up, I'll come too. But alas I have no transport of my own and hubby is working flat out at the moment :fc:
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Listeria hadn't occured to me because she was saying that they had gone straight down and they tend to 'list' with it. But it could be an explanation for why they keep dropping if she is feeding contaminated fodder.
If its any consolation, experienced sheep men and women are losing stock this year, its been such a bad year with fluke/worms appearing in huge ammounts and in places they haven't been before. I have had more morts than I expected, for a variety of reasons here and there. Its sad, but sometimes thats just the way sheep are.
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Listeria hadn't occured to me because she was saying that they had gone straight down and they tend to 'list' with it. But it could be an explanation for why they keep dropping if she is feeding contaminated fodder.
Good point SH. Probably worth her getting her haylage checked out - or use alternative.
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So sorry about Susie. Its terrible losing animals, and more so when they are favourites. Having been through a terrible year with my goats, and losing quite a few to various illnesses, I know the despair you must feel. Sending you lots of :hug: .
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Just like to say thanks to all of you for your help and concern :hug: and especially Amanda (Pedwardine) who has been so supportive on the phone. I haven't had internet for a week and it's been really frustrating. The loss of little Susie really hit me hard, she was like a little dog and had a huge character, it was just sooo sad :'( . Anyway my vet was adamant it was a calcium issue, but he said there could be other complications and I'd done all I could do and the only thing left was nursing. He said he could have come out but it didn't sound hopeful from what I described and I'd just have a vet bill to add to a dead sheep, he was proved right!
I was so worried about the others I couldn't sleep so as soon as I got help I moved all the in-lamb ewes out of the field as thankfully we've not had rain for a while and some of the land has dried out. They seem fine at the moment, and look happy to be on new grass, even if there isn't a huge amount of it! Hopefully now they aren't competing with the other sheep they will get more feed. They aren't touching the haylage so must be getting enough grass for the moment, they are also having ewe nuts.
I had planned to lamb them outdoors but spent today turning one half of my barn into lambing pens, just in case the weather turns again!
A quick reply re. the listeria comment, the losses I've had have all been unrelated and have been different sheep in different fields, and before I was feeding extra haylage. I haven't had any losses apart from Susie, since feeding it.
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Hope your rest of lambing and rest of year is less stressful Remy, it's all great until something goes wrong isn't it, but we all know that one, you're not alone :wave: