The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Livestock => Goats => Topic started by: fifixx on February 08, 2013, 09:54:07 am

Title: and another one not well...
Post by: fifixx on February 08, 2013, 09:54:07 am
One more of the 10 month old kids is standing by herself in a corner, tail down.

All lambivaced and oviplasted 2 weeks ago, I worm sampled yesterday and the vet gave me some panacur for her which I gave her 5pm.

One thing is she is slightly swollen around her nose - we did have a barber pole goat last year, so I've left a message for the vet to call me.

I am going to have a look at her eyelids to see if they look pale and anaemic.


Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: colliewoman on February 08, 2013, 08:06:50 pm
Oh hun  :-[  I can't offer any advice but didn't want to read and run so have lots of  :hug: :hug: :hug:  instead.
I hope you find out what it is and she makes a full recovery :fc:
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Mammyshaz on February 08, 2013, 08:09:06 pm
So sorry you are having an awful time, hope you find the problem soon. There's nothing worse than not knowing.  :fc:  your girl improves soon  :hug:
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: wytsend on February 08, 2013, 08:18:49 pm
Give Vecoxan as soon as you can....... this the right age/time for coccidiosis to strike .   I am assuming the kids are all up to date with clostridial vaccinations ?
You can buy Vecoxan over the counter.........it does not have to come from the Vet
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Daisys Mum on February 08, 2013, 09:13:34 pm
Sorry I cant offer any advice but hope you get her sorted soon, it's such a worry when they are not well :hug:
 
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Lesley Silvester on February 08, 2013, 10:36:16 pm
 :hug: :hug: :hug: from me as well.
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Anke on February 08, 2013, 10:46:55 pm
Give Vecoxan as soon as you can....... this the right age/time for coccidiosis to strike .   I am assuming the kids are all up to date with clostridial vaccinations ?
You can buy Vecoxan over the counter.........it does not have to come from the Vet

I am not sure about cocci, at nearly 100quid a bottle it wouldn't be the first drug I tried..., especially if no diaorrhea. Also cocci in older goats (as opposed to young kids) is quite rare.
 
Another cause for anaemia could be fluke, if yours have been out grazing recently and it's quite wet in your fields?
 
I have found Panacur doesn't work on my goats anymore, been using Oramec for last two years.
 
Has your girl got a raised temperature? Any heavy breathing?
 
So sorry for you, you must be really worried now... :hug: 
 
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: fifixx on February 09, 2013, 08:30:02 am
Update:

vet came out yesterday.  She had a high temp, pale gums, eyes etc ,no scouring.  he was thinking fluke (but they haven't been out since Nov and were tested for fluke then - pooled sample though) or high worm burden (poss humuncus).  Sending fecal sample off for specific worm testing.

Antibiotic and buscopan given plus multivit for anaemia.

She's no better this morning - he has said she can go on a drip if necessary as she is a breeding animal so worth saving.

I'll wait till lunchtime to see how she is then I'll call the vet again.


Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: fifixx on February 09, 2013, 11:55:48 am
Update no 2;  Moved poorly goat to a more snug side of barn and noticed her muzzle was sopping wet - just the same as one who died 2 weeks ago.  She was a bit unsteady on her feet and definitely worse. 

So - went to vet and told her what was going on (luckily goat-expert vet on this weekend) and she is coming out to have a look.  Her first question was had I lambivac-ed - which I did last week again.

Oh dear - worth spending the money as she is a good breeding animal
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: fifixx on February 09, 2013, 01:16:59 pm
Listeriosis

She had hay just stuck in her mouth and head to one side, circling when walking.  From either the haylage they had over a month ago and the end is still on the ground or perhaps the straw which I bed down with and they always nibble....

Another 24 hour wait to see if she'll get better after different antibiotic and metacam.  She has told me to give her water and some twin lamb stuff as the goat can't eat because of the paralysis on one side of the face.

Young goats are vulnerable as they are changing teeth and then the listeria can get up through the mouth into the brain - nasty.  I remember when i used to make ice-cream that listeria was the most dangerous thing to avoid poisoning people with!!

Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: colliewoman on February 09, 2013, 03:42:11 pm
Oh poor you and poor little one  :hug: :hug: :hug:
I hope she makes a good recovery :fc: :fc: :fc: :fc: :fc: :fc: :fc:
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Old Shep on February 09, 2013, 04:26:41 pm
good luck, hope it gets over this  :fc:   My money would be on the haylage.  With the wet conditions this summer it was hard not to get some soil in with the hay.  :(
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: fifixx on February 09, 2013, 04:39:17 pm
just one question - I'm giving her warm water and twin lamb drench - not sure on quantities to give at a time? 
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: jaykay on February 09, 2013, 07:39:49 pm
Oh, I'm sorry, poor love.

Is she drinking the mixture or are you syringing it? She could probably drink 200ml - I suppose it depends  how often you're giving it?

 :fc: :fc:  that she recovers  :fc: :fc:
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Anke on February 09, 2013, 07:54:54 pm
Oh no, that doesn't sound good.... for goats that have pregnancy tox and aren't eating I have in the past drenched 3 times a day with about 15 to 20 ml of Propylene glycol (Golden Guenrseys). I would follow the advice on the side of the bottle as for ewes. Little and often is probably better.
 
 :fc: :fc:  for a positive outcome
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: fifixx on February 09, 2013, 09:03:22 pm
Lordy lordy.  an hour or 2 or trying to decide whether to call vet to put her down.  Long chat with Leslie of the Devon Cashmere herd who has written a blog on listeriosis http://devonfinefibres.wordpress.com/2009/11/01/goat-listeriosis-or-circling-disease/ (http://devonfinefibres.wordpress.com/2009/11/01/goat-listeriosis-or-circling-disease/)

5 ml penicillin, more twin lamb plus warm water and heat lamp quite high.

Glass of red wine for me now!
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Mammyshaz on February 09, 2013, 09:07:56 pm
So sorry. It must be heartbreaking just waiting to see what happens. your doing everything you can and more.  :fc: for some good signs and a  :hug: for you

P.S. Just leave the glass alone and go straight for the bottle  :trophy:   :innocent:
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Old Shep on February 09, 2013, 10:12:44 pm
 :fc: :fc: :fc: :hug: :hug: :hug: :fc: :fc: :fc:
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Lesley Silvester on February 09, 2013, 10:54:16 pm
That's terrible.  I so hope she does recover.   :hug: :hug: :hug:
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Brucklay on February 10, 2013, 08:27:46 am
Keeping fingers crossed for you Fifixx - what a horrible thing to go through - thank you for the link, saved for future reference - hoping for good news posts in time  :fc: :fc:
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: countrywoman on February 10, 2013, 09:59:55 am
So sorry to read all of this, how upsetting for you.  Hoping the news will be better today.   :fc:
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: wytsend on February 10, 2013, 10:41:23 am
Unfortunately listeria in goats  is a 50/50 chance.................lets hope yur girlis on the plus side.
Having lost an adult to this in 2011 I made the decision never to feed haylage again ....despite the source of mine being an excellent supplier who I had used for 15 years.   Just cant take the risk.
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Susannah on February 10, 2013, 11:29:13 am
I feel for you so much, it is just such a terrible thing not knowing. I am keeping everything crossed for you.
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: fifixx on February 10, 2013, 02:08:12 pm
Called the vet this morning as she is still down, but trying to lift her head - he's given her more time, another anti-inflammatory injection and I'm giving 5ml penicilliin every 6 hours plus twin lamb drench with some warm water - she still swallows, and I am not brave enough to stomach tube.

Talk about exhausted!!




Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: goosepimple on February 10, 2013, 03:06:20 pm
 :hug: :fc:  keep us updated, all the best.
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Bumblebear on February 10, 2013, 06:28:33 pm
Thinking of you :(
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: fifixx on February 11, 2013, 06:16:09 pm
Update again!

She's hanging on - I've been giving her the 5 ml penicillin every 6 hours (not good at muscle injections so it takes me about 10 minutes each time to decide on the spot!), 50-100 ml twin lamb drench with a bit of warm water and she is holding her head if - if a bit wonky and moving around a bit on her tum.

I just fed the other goats and as an afterthought half filled the scoop with water, put it in front of her and she sucked up the lot and licked the bowl clean!  Obviously the drench leaves her thirsty, or I wasn't giving her enough.

anyway - no illusions as she may be too brain-damaged to ever get up - I'll keep going though for a few more days.
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: jaykay on February 11, 2013, 06:30:36 pm
Keeping my fingers crossed for her and you  :fc:  :-*
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Anke on February 11, 2013, 06:53:22 pm
Fingers (and toes crossed) :fc: . Listeriosis is such a horrible thing...
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Blinkers on February 11, 2013, 07:11:02 pm
Keeping everything crossed here for you.  :fc: :fc: :hug: x
 
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: goosepimple on February 11, 2013, 07:49:18 pm
Thinking of you and the little one  :fc:
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Lesley Silvester on February 11, 2013, 10:22:59 pm
You deserve for her to make a full recovery but, even if she doesn't survive, you'll know you gave her every possible chance.   :trophy: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: fifixx on February 14, 2013, 10:24:21 am
So she's very slowly getting better - still down, but I lift her to move her and she tries to use legs; head less tilted; nibbling at grass and hay - but not sure how much she gets down as her mouth is still pretty paralysed.  giving her lectade all the time which she drinks and this morning saw she had drunk half a bucket of water.

Lost my nerve this morning with the injecting - just couldn't do it!  Had to come in, calm down, look up how to inject on lots of websites.  then plus husband to hold her, did a sq over ribs.  I'm off to see the neighbouring sheep farmer to get to grips with the neck injections.  Poor thing - bumps all over from 4 injections a day and it does hurt her.


Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: maddy on February 14, 2013, 11:09:56 am
I do feel for you (and her).  You deserve to pull her through.  :fc:
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: fifixx on February 16, 2013, 12:54:32 pm
She's slowly getting better - down to 2 x 5ml injections of penicillin today - thank goodness.  Lifting her up to try and get some life into the legs and putting her over a haybale - but need a smaller bale as her legs don't reach the ground! 

Little offerings of grass, rose leaves and she even has one of my pots of overwintering parsley in front of her!!

Asked vet today how long do I carry on and he thinks she may make it - she is having lectade plus every day so that will keep her alive and she is cudding a little bit so she is managing to nibble something. 




Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Anke on February 16, 2013, 02:22:30 pm
Try her on some ivy leaves, it's a good pick-me up for goats. No flowers/seeds though, but ivy and maybe bramble leaves should be around just now...
 
 :fc: :fc: :fc:
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: goosepimple on February 16, 2013, 07:05:23 pm
Will she make a full recovery fifixx or will there be a recurrance do you think?  All the best with her though, lovely she has such a caring owner, wonder what happens to ones that don't.
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Lesley Silvester on February 16, 2013, 08:51:35 pm
Sounds encouraging if she's cudding.  You deserve her to pull through after all your hard work with her.
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: fifixx on February 17, 2013, 10:51:47 am
If she does pull through, she should be OK - sometimes they stay a bit droopy on one side apparently.

She seems a bit weak this morning - I have cut the injections down - but probably lack of food.  Soaking sheep nuts which I'm going to add to pureed grass and the lectade drench plus a bit of brewers yeast and probiotics: sounds almost like a posh liquid diet!!
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: wytsend on February 17, 2013, 02:17:43 pm
Give her some live yoghurt asap...........the antibiotics will also have killed off the gut bacteria !!!
Give her as much as she will take........it wont be proper digestion/cudding without gut bacteria.
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: fifixx on February 18, 2013, 08:42:39 am
I''ve put some probiotics in her drench.  last night she got something stuck in her throat as I was drenching her - a leaf or something, so tiny bit worried this morning!  Gave her some drench early this morning but she was still a bit gaggy - so need to have a look
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: fifixx on February 19, 2013, 06:54:14 pm
So much better! Last night she stood up and walked to the water bucket, just a few steps.  Today, she did the same and stayed up while eating some grass.

She is still blind in one eye, that may or may not get better.  I am still giving her 3 ml penicillin daily and plenty of tlc - although we had the first kids this evening, so masses to do!
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Brucklay on February 19, 2013, 07:05:02 pm
Sounds like you've turned a corner - that's really good news and kids too what a good day - really glad for you  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Anke on February 19, 2013, 08:40:30 pm
 :thumbsup:   for your goatling and  :thumbsup: for the kids too!
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: goosepimple on February 19, 2013, 08:49:06 pm
great news and a very lucky girl for having such a great owner  :trophy:
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Daisys Mum on February 19, 2013, 09:19:56 pm
I have all my fingers and toes crossed for you  :fc: :fc: :fc: :fc: :fc:
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Lesley Silvester on February 19, 2013, 11:02:51 pm
Very good news.  You are an absolute star for fighting so hard for her.  I hope she goes on to produce lots and lots of female kids for you over the years.
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: fifixx on February 22, 2013, 04:06:37 pm
She is standing, trying to avoid me (good news!) but she seems to not be swallowing any of the food she eats - so I am pulling out big wadges of chewed/cudded food which have just become too big.

I also can't give her any liquid as it makes her gag - so I think there might be a leaf or something halfway down her throat. 

I don't want her to go downhill after all the hard work - should I get some lectade in with a stomach tube?  Her mouth is still paralysed on one side so she can't pick bits of food up well. 

I'll left a message for the vet to call me, just for reassurance for me really!

I've given her a multivit injection - perhaps she could do with a bit of calcium too?


Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Anke on February 22, 2013, 04:27:56 pm
I think the vet needs to have a look at what's in her throat. I wouldn't try and get anything down her until it's cleared. Vet can also give propylene glycol intra-venously to get her back up quickly.
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: goosepimple on February 22, 2013, 04:36:29 pm
could she have had a stroke?
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: fifixx on February 22, 2013, 05:12:04 pm
Well, I am slightly overtired and was being a bit pessimistic....

Made up some lectade (as opposed to twin lamb first aid stuff) - and she swallowed about 100ml - hurray!

Still waiting for vet's call - of course now it's Friday - I'll wait till Monday and re-consider

10 goats to kid (twins arrived last Tuesday all well, dead kid born at 5 this morning which was a shame) - I may have a talk with them to all hang on till tomorrow if they could!


Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Lesley Silvester on February 22, 2013, 05:29:37 pm
And you expect them to wait for a convenient time?   ???   this is goats we're talking about.
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Anke on February 22, 2013, 06:23:01 pm
All sounds very stressful.... have you got any help nearby. Maybe you just need a few hours sleep?
 
Our vets do often call back late in the evening if they have been out all day, especially if it is urgent. Do your vets not do this? Lets hope she continues to recover...
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: fifixx on February 22, 2013, 07:13:48 pm
Lovely chat to Leslie of Devon Fine fibres in Devon who has been my guiding star through all of this.  She thinks little Vixen has got cold with this bitter wind - a couple of days ago I raised the heat lamp to stop her getting caught up in it as she is now standing so it is not so warm.  She has straw bales around her pen but this cold is everywhere.

So she is now in a fetching M&S black jumper with her front legs through the arms and a tweed dog's coat on top!
I've given her 10 ml prop glycerol in her mouth and am making a soup of sugar beet, lectade, bit of pureed grass which I'll give her a bit later as a drench which should warm her up still more.

Leslie suggested getting some horse alfafa hay Alfa A which is chopped so she can hopefully eat it.

Have had a chat with the pregnant ladies and told them to cross their legs till tomorrow!
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: fifixx on March 11, 2013, 07:20:01 pm
Sadly, I had to put her down yesterday evening - she had made progress slowly and the vet last week said to get her outside for a bit of grass - so took her out a couple of days alone which she hated, then decided to put the yearlings with her, but keep a close eye in case they bashed her.  All OK for an hour, took my eyes off them for under 5 mins while i went to open the barn gate - and they knocked her down.

She didn't recover, I think she just realised she couldn't do it and gave up - I definitely got the message from her on Saturday and decided not to force her to drink or eat - and yesterday it was so cold, I called the vet out.  In retrospect, she would have had to recover to plus 100% as she had gone blind in one eye and would have had to defend herself on that side.

I have learnt a lot about the disease and will never ever ever ever feed haylage again.  Lesson learnt.  I know lots of goat and sheep keepers do feed haylage, but as I can make good hay - I'm sticking with that!

Good news: we have 20 happy healthy kids bouncing around the barn!


Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: goosepimple on March 11, 2013, 08:00:32 pm
Too bad, you did your very best for her fifixx your a considerate keeper  :thumbsup:  nice to have the new kids bouncing around to keep you focused, all the best.
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Anke on March 11, 2013, 08:52:19 pm
Oh, that's such a shame.... but listeriosis is bad and very few goats survive it. You hav etried to do as mch as you can. Good news about your kids.... well 20, that's quite a number!
 
My first one due in a weeks time... and looks like we have to start drenching as madame is not liking her concentrate anymore... :-\
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Lesley Silvester on March 11, 2013, 10:59:37 pm
So sorry to hear that.   :bouquet:   At least you have the satisfaction of knowing you did your absolute best for her - more than many would have done  - and you are to be congratulated on that.  It's still hard though but focus on enjoying the new arrivals.
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Roxy on March 12, 2013, 12:28:59 am
So very sorry about your loss.  Its nearly a year ago since I lost my lovely Jinty to this.  She struggled on, and made some improvement, and I was hopeful, and then she had a relapse.
 
 
Unfortunately, this year we are struggling for hay in any shape or form, so have no option but to use haylage for our animals. 
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: wytsend on March 12, 2013, 06:24:54 am
I too, will never ever use haylage for the goats again........listeria in goats, ultimately is 90% fatal.
It is especially worse when you get a glimmer of hope and then they pass over the rainbow bridge.
Hopefully this year will be better haymaking weather...............make/acquire more than you think you will need, at least goats will happily eat headland/hedgerow hay which a lot of contractors virtually throw away because it is unsaleable to horse owners.    Go and see every loacal contractor and tell them that you are happy to have 'weedy' hay.........usually they are grateful to sell for a smaller amount.   Thats how I get mine..................big bales can be got the same way.
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: plumseverywhere on March 12, 2013, 07:34:53 am
When I called my local hay supplier he insisted I go down and see the hay as lots of horse owners had sent it back...when I got there I was delighted as it was packed with thistles and all sorts which I knew the goats would love but also it meant I was paying £3.50 a bale delivered rather than over £5  :)  like Wytsend says, its well worth  looking around for this!
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Roxy on March 13, 2013, 12:25:14 am
We had such awful weather in the summer  - like most of the country, I think ....the hay made round here was in most cases not good. Damp, musty, and poor quality,  Really hope we have a better summer, and good hay is made.
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: Daisys Mum on March 13, 2013, 07:01:13 am
Not quite sure why but in 2011 I bought the years hay and then decided to buy a load of big bale haylage, thank goodness I did. The goats are eating the hay which is still really good and the horses the haylage, did offer some to the goats but they were not keen so have stuck to just the hay for them.
Now praying for good weather as we do need hay and haylage this year.
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: wytsend on March 13, 2013, 07:18:10 am
Dont forget......that big bale hay, which is often equivalent to at least 12 std bales can be bought for around £20 A BALE   making it cheaper still.
Best of all, handling problems are not really there, as unlike haylage,  you can cut the strings and re stack where you need it !!!!   Thats what I do  and I use 2 big bales a week !!!!
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: fifixx on March 13, 2013, 05:13:44 pm
and my big mistake this year:  putting a row of big bale hay on the chalk floor - now all mouldy so have wasted the bottom third - grrrr
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: wytsend on March 13, 2013, 06:43:26 pm
Use pallets for the bottom layer....air can circulate.
 
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: plumseverywhere on March 13, 2013, 06:49:34 pm
and my big mistake this year:  putting a row of big bale hay on the chalk floor - now all mouldy so have wasted the bottom third - grrrr

I did that last year, use pallets now like Wytsend says but also I make sure the back of the bales aren't touching the brick wall so air gets all round  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: and another one not well...
Post by: goosepimple on March 13, 2013, 07:05:26 pm
dig a hole under the pallet and put a basin in it with lots of rat poison otherwise you'll create a five star rat run  ;)