The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Justkat on February 08, 2013, 09:36:52 am
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Hi everyone :wave: Newbie from Cumbria here!
I am interested in getting some sheep and was wondering what people would recommend for a beginner. The idea is to buy some ewes with lambs at foot this year, rear the lambs for slaughter but keep the meat ourselves to sell to family and friends. We have a very helpful farmer down the road who has told me 'he knows a man' ::) who I can buy some herdwicks from. He said I need to make sure I don't buy sheep that are "ratchers" - not sure if this is just a west cumbrian term but he explained that basically a ratcher is a sheep which is an escape artist. Apparantly, this man he knows sells sheep which aren't ratchers so I presume that means he handles them, trains them to the bucket etc but I need to find out more about it.
Anyway...from what I've been reading mainly on this forum it has become apparant to me that perhaps Herdwicks aren't the best sheep for a beginner to start off with. What do you all think? Ideally what I'm after is a breed that is very hardy, could survive happily in a field which doesnt have a purpose built shelter, is easy to handle for worming etc (I'm a small but strong woman and would like to be able to do most things on my own), and that need little intervention during lambing. It would also be advantageous money-wise to have a breed with a good lambing rate (not sure if this is the correct term). Also above all, they need to produce good meat as that is the main reason for keeping them.
I'm still getting to grips with all the sheepy terminology so apologise if some of the phrases I've used sound a bit odd! I've got tons of questions but that should do for now, I'd love to hear what you experienced bunch think!
TIA :thumbsup:
Kat
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Suggestions: get Tim Tyne's book on keeping sheep and go on a course (plenty advertised in Country Smallholding). I think Kate and Jim Beavan (who were the first Lambing Live farm) do one. My son did a shearing course there with Jim last year and it was excellent.
Generally speaking the downland sheep are hardy, docile and easily trained to the bucket. You're welcome to come and have a look at my Southdowns if you're passing through Herefordshire! We also keep Badger Face but they're a mountain breed and wouldn't recommend them to a beginner - super breed but great jumpers!
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Hi Kat, I'll leave any breed advice to those of the forum with lots of experience.
That said, I may be able to assist with the correct term for "good lambing rate" - the word is "fecundity". I kid you not. Be careful with using it in front of children as you could find yourself answering lots of questions!
Not specific to ewes but an absolutely fab word none the less!
Good luck with your new venture.
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Herdwicks wouldn't be my idea of a starter breed - big to handle and as a breed renowned for escaping/wildness. Like any breed that may not be the case if you train them from lambs but I would go for something smaller and tamer! Nb most primitive breeds like Shetland, Hebridean etc will be fine overwintering on open field but will need hay and mineral lick. Or get a down land breed which would be ready for slaughter in the same year they are born.
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Get a breed that matches your locality. If there are lots of folks around your area with Herdwicks then get those, they are as hardy as can be. They will be ideal for your local environment and weather conditions, and you will be able to call on the local knowledge of the breed too.
Herdwicks aren't that big really, I would go for it! :D Size isn't really an issue once you've got the hang of handling them, it's all about technique.
You will be able to get the lambs tame without a problem, so try to pick ewes that don't run a mile when you approach them. If yer'man knows a man who has some that aren't escape artists then go with that.
And if you need a more meatier lamb, then next year you can buy a meat breed terminal sire and put him to your Herdwick ewes.
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Remember though, there's a difference between keeping a breed like the Herdwick on open hill and keeping them in small paddocks - which are not their natural environment. Hill sheep have miles to roam over so access to a surprising amount of fodder plus loads of places to shelter.
If you are keeping 5 sheep to the acre rather than 5 acres per sheep, they will still probably need hay over winter. So t will depend on your land in terms of quantity and quality what is the best breed.
I don't know how prolific Herdwicks are and it will be influenced by management factors, but Blackies tend to produce single lambs (which is what most hill farmers want - a good big single) but will produce more if kept on easier ground.
I would also recommend Tim Tyne's book - which I am rereading again :thumbsup:
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Thanks everyone, lots of sound advice!
I have ordered Tim Tynes book, was hoping it would arrive in the post today but no such luck. Yeoman - thanks for that, now I can sound all technical when I speak to the locals :excited:
We do have lots of Herdwicks nearby so that is one of the attractions of that breed, we are also friendly with another farmer over the valley from us who has lots of Herdwicks so he could be a valuable resource in terms of getting new tups etc.
I am still trying to work out costs etc, and I'm not entirely sure what price I could sell the meat for. I understand Herdies produce smaller carcasses unless you keep them for longer, what are the pro's/con's of this? I presume it ends up costing slightly more as you have to feed them over winter, but in return you get more meat...is the meat better or worse for being allowed to mature or is it the same just more of it?
I have so many garbled questions floating around in my head I'm struggling to write them down in coherent sentences!
Could somebody explain the terminal sire thing to me? My simple brain is finding it hard to understand!
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Terminal sire = a ram that you use only for producing larger meatier lambs, with more meat on them than you would get if you bred with the same breed ram as you have ewe. The lambs would be destined for eating rather than keeping for breeding.
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Terminal sire = a ram that you use only for producing larger meatier lambs, with more meat on them than you would get if you bred with the same breed ram as you have ewe. The lambs would be destined for eating rather than keeping for breeding.
Ahhh I see, thanks for that simple explanation :)
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"fecundity"
Bless you! ;D
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Hi Kat, I'll leave any breed advice to those of the forum with lots of experience.
That said, I may be able to assist with the correct term for "good lambing rate" - the word is "fecundity". I kid you not. Be careful with using it in front of children as you could find yourself answering lots of questions!
Not specific to ewes but an absolutely fab word none the less!
Good luck with your new venture.
We use 'prolificacy' which doesn't sound so rude but is more difficult to say ;D
For sheep breeds which have a slower rate of maturing, the meat will be different - better in most people's opinion. It depends though on what you like - tender baby lamb or a fine grained more flavoursome meat.
Maybe you could buy a 16 month carcase from one of your Herdy-breeding neighbours and see if you like the taste.
Other breeds to consider are the primitives - the carcase is also small but matures more slowly. Our Hebs weigh in at about 15-22kgs deadweight at 16 months. Carlisle has it's own Rare Breeds sale so you have a wide choice on your doorstep. Primitives have a good pelvis width to weight ratio so are easy lambers to a commercial terminal sire - you get the carcase size you are looking for but the hardiness, thriftiness etc of the Primitive dams. Breeds such as Shetland, Hebridean, Manx have a fair prolificacy at about 160-170% ie about 2/3rds of your ewes will twin, the rest will have singles, with the occasional triplets if your ground is lush.
Some people say that the Primitives are difficult to manage, being a bit flighty, but we haven't found that (except Soay sometimes :D ) especially Shetlands which are very tame, can be readily trained to the halter, and have one of the best British fleeces around to add a tiny bit to your income (fleece for craft or tanned skins)
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This question has been asked many times.
Get whatever breed your neighbour has.
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Get a breed you like the look of, if you are pleased when you look at them, then they could be the breed for you.
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This question has been asked many times.
Get whatever breed your neighbour has.
This, but with the added caveat - unless your neighbour has something very unusual for the area.
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Or unless your neighbour keeps the ugliest sheep you've ever seen, which sound as though they're throwing up when they baaa! :innocent:
(http://www.uklivestock.co.uk/buildgfx/scrolling-images/wern-beltex-scrolling2.jpg)
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Or unless your neighbour keeps the ugliest sheep you've ever seen, which sound as though they're throwing up when they baaa! :innocent:
(http://www.uklivestock.co.uk/buildgfx/scrolling-images/wern-beltex-scrolling2.jpg)
Thats a lovely sheep!
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Nothing wrong with a texel or beltex :P
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My goodness, beauty really is in the eye of the beholder! ;D (though apologies to any Beltex keepers out there!).
Apart from the size of the joints though, I really can't see why a smallholder would want to keep those over and above these
(http://www.farmersguardian.com/pictures/576x440fitpad%5B0%5D/4/3/9/32439_Herdwick_sheep.jpg)
or these
(http://ramblenshetlands.webs.com/shagbark.jpg)
That said, we're hoping to get some ewes with lambs at foot in the spring from our other neighbour, so guess what they'll most likely be!? :innocent:
It's a great thing that we have so many varieties of sheep in this country though. Also as smallholders, most of us aren't under the same pressure as the commercial farmers to focus on the bottom line. If you're doing it for pleasure, you might as well get the breed you like the look of best, surely? :thumbsup:
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Oh dear - that's not a bonny sheep to me - saying that we ended up with a "pig face" orphan year before last as a local farmer was left with one (when it's pall died) and knew I had orphans and in my eyes she was beautiful - just because she was my "pig face" :innocent: :innocent:
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I don't keep sheep like my neighbors, but then my sheep haven't been dropping like flies all winter ;)
The term in Somerset for a sheep that escapes is 'You F*&^£$!!!!!' I believe. At least that is what I hear being shouted ;D
Mine got out when the snow melted and froze my lekky fence to the floor, but they have behaved all the rest of the time. Save for the time they took themselves to the post office in the village on the ONE day I went away for a trip ::)
My sheep look like this;
(http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa363/missus-snow/beasties001.jpg)
They go 'baaaaah' and not 'oink' and are by far the best sheep in the world. Ever. :love:
Not that I am biased or anything :innocent:
And their lambs are just :yum: :yum:
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Racists! ;D
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On the subject of 'escape artists', I'm not sure it is about breed, rather just about personality. Most of our Soays stay where they are put unless there is a big hole under the fence but we have one that since birth has been a pain in the backside. She only survived because she is one of the best looking sheep we have ever had and I regret this decision all the time. If she weren't too old and tough to eat ... .
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Good Evening
I am new to keeping sheep also, although i didn't want them for the meat, i just needed something to keep the grass down, where the horses wouldn't graze. I was advised to get Shetland sheep, as they are much smaller, so easier to handle, (well there meant to be). They are also very hardy and don't seem to require a great deal of hard feed. They are also very friendly. I ended up with 6 ram lambs, who are lovely and they are also pretty good looking (although i may be a bit biased). They are generally good and don't try to escape either.
I must admit i just bought the Tim Tyne book as well and its a good read.
Regards
Emily
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I don't think the crossbreed can be beaten - here's one of my Ryeland x Charollais lambs from last year. They appear :fc: to be hardy, healthy and more robust than many sheep.
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The problem with Herdies and some other hill breeds is that they are 'hefted' - the ewes regard their own ground as home and will try to return to it.
If you buy ewes from a flock that range on the common allotments, or out on open moorland / fell, the likelihood is they'll be hefted types and won't settle, especially in teeny paddocks. Hence, 'ratchers' - they're just trying to find their way back home. :'(
However, there will be breeders who keep their sheep closer, use "in-bye" ground, so their sheep will be used to being moved around smaller fields.
So I would ask your friendly farmer if you can see the flock in their home environment, and if that's open moorland or fell, look elsewhere for stock. If they're in fields, ask questions about do they have any fell or common ground that they use - if they don't, you may be okay!
On every other count you've listed bar one, Herdies would fit your bill. They're one of the hardiest breeds, not huge, shouldn't need much help at lambing provided you haven't been silly about your choice of tup, and have delicious meat. There are lots around you and lots of people who could advise you in your area.
The one count on which they don't fit your bill is that they're a lot less likely to have twins than some breeds - but then there's no reason they won't go on popping single lambs out, and rearing them with no particular help, for over a decade, perhaps longer. If you do the maths, you could find that the reduced startup costs, reduced replacement costs (lambs you can't sell - or eat - because you're keeping them to replace old ewes that are no longer productive) plus the very low inputs - and hopefully low vet bills - might make them a better financial proposition than you expect.
There are bound to be some people around who do sheep handling sessions / courses on Herdwicks - why not try to find one, and see if you like them and feel comfortable and confident handling them?
The other local breed you could consider is the Swaledale. They're not generously-framed, so aren't oversized for a woman to handle on her own (plus the ewes have the helpful 'handlebars' - you would never pull a sheep along by its horns, but they aren't half useful at helping you grab hold of one securely ;)), two-summer wethers taste fantastic. Like the Herdie, some flocks will be hefted but even they do tame given time and patience - Swales really like sheep cake, and human bread ;), digestive biscuits, etc. They're terrific mothers, usually have plenty of milk, and are more likely to have twins than Herdies would be. Older ewes will be capable of producing a lamb or pair of lambs to a larger tup breed if you do decide you want to produce meatier lambs.
Neither breed has fleeces that handspinners will queue up for, so don't bank on any income from fleece. Having said which, there are people who do market Herdwick and Swaledale wool.
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That's a very very nice lamb, ZaktheLad :thumbsup:
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We have hebrideans. Our friend has them and recommended them. We got a flock of 10, the flightiest sheep I've ever known and we wondered what we'd done!
But they are better now they've lambed and the lambs are really tame, so we could have the nature v nurture debate...
Also, hill breeds are smaller so easier for me to handle, once I've rounded them up that is!
J xxxx
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That's a very very nice lamb, ZaktheLad :thumbsup:
Thanks! She is one of the ewe lambs that I have kept back from last years lot, so will be interesting to see what her offspring look like this time next year.
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We've got ryelands and I think they're fab :excited: I manage them for the majority on my own and as they are easily bucket trained so will follow where ever the food goes ;D . They generally don't want to escape as it's just to much hassle, why waste energy escaping when I can just stand here and graze? I am totally biased but I really do love them. All my local farmers have welsh crosses so they all look a little confused when they see my woolly, tubby sheep.
Have attached photo of Puck, one of our breeding ewes, claiming the hay all for herself :innocent:
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I like ryelands myself or rather my wife does :innocent: but they are a little hot for my pocket. I'm quite happy with the shetlands, when you have arthritis like i do they are ideal.