The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: happygolucky on January 18, 2013, 07:53:34 pm
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I have been thinking a long time about all the health and safety....I know its for everyones good but is it?
We have so many inspections it Peees me off....we do well but are selling up, maybe to have some other business, we will see BUT, all the rules and reg and planning cost too much and eat into any meagre profit.
I got to thinking, farmers used to feed their hens and pigs waste from shops, cafes etc, that's not allowed so not the farmer has to pay for expensive feed and the waste,....well goes to waste.
I heard something today that made me so angry and it actually had nothing to do with me, it was about my local planning....they tend to object to everything so put anyone off who wants to give being self employed a go.......
We also, being a business, cannot get any form of grant, and they even went funny about out garage being converted, we are not doing that now but after talking to the person today, we should have done it and got retrospective planning,,,,,,
So, shops are going down due to the internet but I suspect a lot of small businesses and smallholders are going down due to H&S
What so other think??
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I agree the planners are not helping things, i recently read in a council document that their target for refusal of any new proposed sustainable/rural business was 100% refusal.
This stinks. If we own it and want to make a pi$$ poor wage but have total job and life satisfaction who the hell are they to refuse us before we even get our suggestions down on paper. I would never advise anyone to meet and discuss anything with planners. You have to build a solid case for acceptance, study and pry till you know all about the NIMBYs in the neighbourhood and what they do at parish council meetings, then with all guns blazing fire in your seamless application. If they do find something to winge about (and they will :huff: ) just work on an answer till there are no more winges, bingo, live, work, enjoy and sod off ElfinSafety!
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:thumbsup: We had plans passed but with loads of conditions, but the person I spoke to didn't, they moved their now successful business to another county where there were no Dinosaurs, that maddened me, I have no spare money to do what they wanted to do but it was one of my dreams too so now that ones shattered.....
Smallbuisness and smallholdings need a lot more help, the bigger businesses do too but lets start like it all started before the net, I think used clothing is doing very well, infact they have become very expensive.
I know a local councillor that moans about every thing, they do not want change, even for the better and that's very sad :( I could explaine but not on here!!
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The main reason shops are going under is the massive amount they have to pay in rates etc . The internet doesn't help but it isn't the cause .
Huge rates bills and massive tax hikes are killing the uk .
The insane borrowing that has gone on in the past is now playing a big part too .
It is the same with eu membership as well .
All the smaller countries who got all the 'free' money from the dictatorship that is the eu , are now up that creek without a boat let alone a paddle , and they turn to the corrupt bankers that are now running these countries for even more money .
Bailouts they call them , extorsion by any other name though .
The system is corrupt , those that are running it are corrupt , those that are providing the worthless money that is keeping it going are corrupt .
The system is , however , a dead man walking . There is no way it can survive much longer .
It does all boil down to corruption , and the rot has now spread as far as it can .
The hmrc is one of the flailing limbs of a government that is in a death throw , and is , in desperation , trying to grab anything to sustain their corrupt system .
In doing so though , they are like a drowning man who grabs at anyone who attempts to help him , and he clings so tight that he ends up drowning the very people that could save him .
He , the drowning man , like the government , doesn't care who he kills or how many , he just grabs the next in line , till they succumb to his vice like grip .
He is so desperate to survive , nobody can help him . The only way the people near him can survive , is to keep away from his grip .
The same applies to the flailing corrupt government . Starve the bastards of their life blood , money , and they will drown in their own shite . Then and only then can we get out of the shite they have pulled us into .
How to do this though is the hard part .
As the system continues in it's death spiral , more and more of what people pay taxes for , will be taken away , although the taxes/rates will continue to increase .
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there is also a school of thought which says that the councils and government dont want peole who are self sufficient, the economy needs people to be dependent upon the likes of supermarkets and energy suppliers, so the bias in government and councils is to supress those people who are trying to get ahead, thats why they sold debt so easily, debt is slavery. basically.
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I do not understand why they cannot reduce rates in towns to help the towns survive, most towns now are dying and that's sad :(
The system is corrupt , those that are running it are corrupt , those that are providing the worthless money that is keeping it going are corrupt .
I trust the criminals rather than the politicians, bankers and councillors, at least you know you will get knee capped if money is not paid back, its the others who are the liars!!
Guess I could become a gangster :innocent:
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Can't quite see you as thug, somehow :innocent: Although you have conditions on your garage plans it is still an asset to whoever buys your house. I think it's a great buy for the price to be honest.
A lot more of the big companies are going to go bust so i reckon planners are going to have to back off soon!
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we are moving soon and have looked a a few small hotel and small shops to buy. some had rates for about £14k pa, others £4kpa and others nil as remote area. i dont understand rates at all but its enough to put you off buying alot of businesses.
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there is also a school of thought which says that the councils and government dont want peole who are self sufficient, the economy needs people to be dependent upon the likes of supermarkets and energy suppliers, so the bias in government and councils is to supress those people who are trying to get ahead, thats why they sold debt so easily, debt is slavery. basically.
Really ! I wonder if they have people watching this site to gain information about us and draft new ways to stop people being self sufficient.
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Rusty, I normally agree with you, I don't this time!
I'm negotiating on a shop at the moment, not paying any rates for year 1, that's in merseyside, my other shops rates are about £1500 a year. It's only in the town centres that rates are high and there's small business relief on those, in the town centres they're giving units away, I looked in Kendal, 1month leases, most seem to be 6 month leases, so if your willing to take a long lease, the worlds yours...
There are no grants (unless you fit in the criteria of being 12 yrs old) to start up these days, but that is in my opinion a good thing, if you can't stack your business plan you shouldn't be starting out in this market.
The problems the Internet shopping, society being more interested in convenience and the mob mentality, so if everyone thinks something's good and rates it high on the Internet, then everyone buys it, so one one goes to jessops to buy a camera, they don't need the advice, they've already got it and the internees cheaper because they're not on he high street etc etc
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I've just invented the 'internees', it's an advice free version of he Internet, it's just basically TAS and a picture of rustyme's knees, it's conceptual at the moment...
Interestingly I also invented a flag on a stick that you put on the back of your westie when it snows so you can see it, and mittens for kittens oh and don't forget the clogs, for dogs that is...
I dd drink far to much port last night, it's a recession don't you know, clearing the booze cupboard can't afford wine at the moment
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I don't think its really down to health and safety - more the extortionate rates and rents that the high street charges. A tiny kiosk type shop in our local town is £10,000 a year PLUS really high rates which are about another 50% on top.
THe more small businesses that can't afford this reduces how many interesting shops are in the town, this in turn reduces how many people visit the town to do their shopping.
Obviously I am guilty of being an online shop - my business has never been more brisk
My husband is a very senior health and safety expert and his take on 'elf and safety bashing is that most of the so called legislation isn't actually set out by the HSE rather people who misinterpret or make up their own guidelines and then install them in settings. Eg. the no conkers at school was ONE headteacher who made that one up and it became an object of ridicule for all H&S professionals.
All the malarkey about don't put grit down because if someone falls over, you will be sued wasn't HSE recommendation either! ::)
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No probs Alistair , you usually agree with me ? Do they let you out then ? I escaped !
Your last sentance ; "it's cheaper on the internet because they aren't on the high st etc etc " erm isn't that what i am saying , roflmfao !
Yes there are 'new deals' to be had , but even charity shops are now closing because they aren't all getting their 80%+ rates discount now .
Good luck on your venture though mate , hope it goes well for you .
My knobbly knees are not a pretty sight though mate , best give them a miss !
Take care , 'they' are out there !
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In most cases if you factor in labour costs, hardly any smallholder is really viable as a money making business that would earn a decent standard of living in its own right.
Nobody is killing it off - its just not viable in the modern environment of supply and demand as a money making venture.
Therefore it becomes a lifestyle choice & nobody will ever kill that off as long as people value the lifestyle more than money ( or health as we have seen on here this last week).
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A friend of mine told me this story, he was painting and finishing off at a new house. Owner had a right carry on with the council over planning but got it in the end. They wanted trees planted around the plot which is often the case up here AND roses up his driveway. When work was finished they came to inspect everything and asked about the roses. They are there said the owner and right enough plants could be seen BUT he planted them upside down saying he was not a gardener and he had put in roses. He did it to get his own back I suppose. Supermarkets have ruined the high street as just about everything is now sold in them. I did a good bit of my Christmas shopping on line as it works out cheaper than the cost of fuel getting to the shops. Being on a limited budget means doing what you can to save money. I never go into Aberdeen but shop in Turriff or Banff which are about 9 miles from where we live. So I feel I am supporting my local shops when able to.
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I'm a bit late to this thread and just wanted to pick up on the bit you said not being able to access grants Sandy. Down here (South Lanarkshire) there are small business grants and match funding available through the councils funds (I think, because it was someone from the council who came and explained it all to me), aimed at helping small businesses (whatever they may be). This scheme also operates in other areas, I know someone in Dumfries who's used it and folks in Aberdeenshire. So I'd go back to your council website and have a look around in the business section - there might actually be something fund wise which could help you, but you just haven't found the right person to talk to (as is often the case with councils ;))
I'm not even going to start on health and safety ::), planners >:( or the demise of our high streets :'( because I've not got the time or energy. I have to go and construct some farrowing pens for our pigs who are due in the next few days :o :excited:
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I think the H&S thing is more about being sued, like schools closed when there is just a hint of snow, i also remember no Taxi would pick up children in care if there was ice around.
As for shopping, the internet is the best way for most products but not for some, I think the service shops, like dog grooming, phone mending, hairdressers, nail bars, tanning stations etc are doing well as are the cheap shops where postage would make the item too expensive.
A women I spoke to wanted to open a dog day care center in our town, she had the ideal building and all was agreed but the local council planning kept stopping her, now how bad is that? she now has one in Stirling and its doing great...I would love something like that and there is obviously a need, (sorry if Mr or Mrs planner for our area is on here but if they are I would love to know the reasons?)
We wanted to open a tea room but the planning was a bit too expensive and we gave up, then a take away little shop opened across from us and its doing very very well, we could kick ourself as the chap who owns it asked US if we wanted it and we said NO, also all the young people at the youth club also asked me to open it up...talk about missed opportunities.
Anyway, I think it must be hard to be truly self sufficient unless you have a fall back income, something like a skill you can sell......I am off now, as I am not clever with words, I know what I want to say but cannot seem to make any sense, things move on and change and that's how it goes, anyone with forward thinking ideas needs to grasp them and get them up and running.....seize the day!! :wave: :wave:
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I think you made sense there, HGL. Having run a small craft business, I wouldn't do it again. I was fed up with constantly living below the poverty line and having to say no to my children every time they wanted something. I also recently ran a tutoring business but that was in conjunction with my 'proper' job.
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I think it's insurance companies rather than HSE that are the problem; for eg: -
a company takes out insurance in case someone gets injured, then when they come to make a claim (say for someone injuring themselves with a screwdriver), the insurance try to weasel out of paying by asking if the person injured was qualified to use handtools - saying they don't have to pay up unless said person has been on a workshop tool safety course.
hence you end up with councils saying they can't clear rubbish out of the pond 'cos they don't have anyone 'qualified' to use wellies and the like (that one might be a urban myth though).
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If HSE have to investigate a farm safety incident now they charge an hourly rate of £120! Is anything to do with the Government going to take less than two weeks to sort out? This charge isn't covered by our NFU insurance. I have a farm safety document, No Smoking signs and my son and husband have been on a chainsaw course but what else can you do? I once heard girls' voices when I was checking the sheep and a couple of teenagers were at the top of a very steep, icy 15 metre bank above the waterfall at the end of the field we'd closed off for turnout, so no-one would've gone down there for weeks. There's no footpath on the farm and they just didn't understand they weren't supposed to wander around fields at will. You can't legislate people into having commonsense, alas.
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i think they repealled alot of the legislation for the self employed tho. like working on ladders was illegal on your own for a while...
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If HSE have to investigate a farm safety incident now they charge an hourly rate of £120! Is anything to do with the Government going to take less than two weeks to sort out? This charge isn't covered by our NFU insurance. I have a farm safety document, No Smoking signs and my son and husband have been on a chainsaw course but what else can you do? I once heard girls' voices when I was checking the sheep and a couple of teenagers were at the top of a very steep, icy 15 metre bank above the waterfall at the end of the field we'd closed off for turnout, so no-one would've gone down there for weeks. There's no footpath on the farm and they just didn't understand they weren't supposed to wander around fields at will. You can't legislate people into having commonsense, alas.
The risk reduction surveyors should come out at least annually I believe, it will be covered in your documentation how often. They have to walk round the site with you and will identify any risks and explain what you need to do in order to reduce or comply. That way the incidents are really unlikely to happen (at least this is how they'll explain why they don't pay the HSE bill!)
Most people do their best to be safe on their farms but some of the stories my OH tells me after he done risk reduction surveys are just shocking - usually involving quads, tractors, slurry pits, children.... One farmer was quite aggressive "you don't wanna be coming here telling me how to be safe, we've never had an accident..." week later said farmer was killed outright in an agricultural accident :( I know some apparent H&S legislation seems ridiculous, but the true safety side is there for a very good reason as we all know :)
Some people (especially kids I guess) don't understand and do the daft stuff like the waterfall incident, that could have been a tragic accident and wouldn't have been your fault Marches but I would be just as worried as you if that had happened to me. Was worried enough yesterday with kids sledging down our steep hill - what if they break a leg and try to sue me?!
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The real people to call in all this are the ambulance chasing lawyers, the where theres blame theres a claim lot, if they didn't advertise or exist a lot of the hassle would go away, easy money for folks to say they stubbed a toe on your doorstep and you're to blame because you didn't have a sign up warning them ::) and then they pocket £3k for the injury and trauma of it, gimmee strength
Mandy :pig:
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The real people to call in all this are the ambulance chasing lawyers, the where theres blame theres a claim lot, if they didn't advertise or exist a lot of the hassle would go away, easy money for folks to say they stubbed a toe on your doorstep and you're to blame because you didn't have a sign up warning them ::) and then they pocket £3k for the injury and trauma of it, gimmee strength
Mandy :pig:
Totally agree. Horrible, unscrupulous people!!
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we had some one here that investigaged farm accidents, the worse was some farmer cleaning his muck speader? or something, he got caught in the conveyer belt and ended up all over the yard.... :(
Farms are always dangerouse, I think any difficult job I do I try to do with people around, just in case, mind you, I often do things when alone and they you are stumped if you have an accident!!
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OH did a talk to our goat society, I found it really interesting actually considering I hear about H&S more than most lol!
The stats (from memory!) showed that the highest incidents of farm related deaths involved...elderly & children and it emphasised how at risk lone workers are. There's only so much you can put into place really - carry a mobile, let people know where you are and when you'll be back in etc but if you are a truly a lone farmer in the middle of nowhere, its risky business!
If often wonder how long it would be before anyone here noticed I'd gone - probably when they started to get hungry
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I am sure there is a load of H&S regulations that are fairly pointless and more trouble than they are worth (and there are a few that really annoy me) but it worries me greatly when people blame it for everything and the government says they are going to "slash regulation".
In the industry that I work in, sadly, people are killed and seriously injured too often. The company I am working for just now had a fatality only last week and the unit I work on had a very close shave a couple of months ago when a helicopter ditched in the sea. But the fact is the accident rate in different countries is related to how strict the H&S regulations are, even within companies (ie. a company which has operations in the UK and in the US will tend to kill more (usually about 4x more) people in the US where regulations are much more lax).
Whilst getting rid of H&S regulation might be a good thing in many cases can we trust those who are cutting the regulation to ensure the good rules are kept?
The current governments decision to cut HSE inspections and in some cases stop them altogether might sound good but it might also cost someone like me their life.
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WELL IF WE DIDENT DO ENEY THINK IN 2012 JUST SAT AND WATCHED TV WE WOULD BE THE SAME AS WE ARE NAW just broke even first time in 3 ya res .Just dont no which way to go geese turkeys made money chickins lost it grain made money wether lost it Mad