The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Remy on January 03, 2013, 12:13:24 pm
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Preliminary findings so far show a high worm burden, even though they were all drenched in Oct. No sign of fluke at all (which I'm surprised at given the state of my fields!). Test are ongoing but this worm thing has been a huge problem for me, despite the fact I've wormed more than ever since having more sheep. Perhaps they are getting resistant to the wormers? The ram also had no sign of scours which I thought would have been a classic sign, but apparently not.
My vet said current thinking is not to worm the whole flock at once, to try and lower the resistance. I have now wormed all my lambs and youngsters, and the Gotlands who seem to have been so susceptible. I've left the older crossbred ewes for the moment - but what I need to know is when to worm them?! They've all had a vaccination as well just in case!
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Which wormer have you been using? Do you swap about? It is good practice if your flock has a high worm burden to change the wormer type you use, so if worms have developed resistance to a particular wormer group, they will be got by a different group.
Overstocking is a big cause of a high worm burden, especially if you don't have land enough to rotate your grazing.
Your vet is right in saying that current thought is that you should only pick out animals which show signs of worms eg scouring, failure to thrive, and worm them, then keep them on the dirty pasture. This ensures that they carry plenty of worms which are susceptible to the wormers, rather than the whole lot being resistant. However, you need to make sure your whole flock doesn't have the same high worm burden first, so faecal sampling needs to be the first step.
We found a very noticeable improvement in the general health of our stock when we reduced numbers.
We also have hens which free range the pastures and pick up many worm eggs (I assume). Other types of livestock sharing sheep pasture can have the same effect (except goats) where they consume worm eggs but are not appropriate hosts for the eggs to develop.
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Current thinking on the Sustainable Control of Parasites in Sheep (SCOPS) is to switch wormer groups (yellow, white, clear) each year, worm, leave them on the field they've just come from for 24-48 hours, so that any resistant worms mate with non-resistant worms already on the pasture, then move them to fresh pasture. The cleanest pasture, such as aftermath grazing, should be used for the most vulnerable group, such as weaned lambs. There are a couple of new wormers (Startect and Zolvix) where no resistance seems to have built up yet, but there's no point using one of these (very expensive) products and putting them back on pasture with resistant worms.
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Remy,
I think it is probably worth speaking to your vet again. They will have a better knowledge of your area.
My sheep had been wormed when I got them (May/June) and vet said not to worm them again but to get a poo sample checked in the spring before I do anything else.
Sally
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There are worms that do not cause scouring, for example the blood-sucking ones (Haemonchus ones). You would only know if these were a problem if you did a detailed worm count.
Also some of the clostridial diseases are quite diffuclt to establish post mortem if the body isn't freshly dead. There seemingly are also other clostridial bacteria against which there is not current vaccine?
I don't know what your solution would be if your ground is heavily infested with (resistant) worms, other than using one of the new wormers, housing the flock or using absolutely clean ground for at least a year and probably also seriously reducing numbers - I am just going through a similar decision process, having had to deal with worm burdens in my lambs for the first time this last summer.
The SCOPS document is really good, but heavy reading... and repeat readings...
Also one completely different thought (I have some Gotlands too), are Gotlands (having been bred in a completely different climate) just not really suitable for these wet UK conditions we had last year? And therefore much more likely to suffer from worms/bad feet (that's my problem with them)/fluke possibly too? How have other Gotland flocks done this last summer - if you are a member of the Gotland Society, maybe it's worth talking to them?
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Just be careful when they say high worm count.
I know this can be a huge problem but we had good strong lambs die of what we and the vet were convinced was white muscle disease a few years ago, it cleared up when we gave vitamin jabs.
And a vet post mortem on the heart looked like WMD
We had another lamb sent to the VLA and the test came back inconclusive but possible worm burden!! the vet and us were really confused because it didn't match any of the symptoms. We think they said that because they couldn't find anything else and just had to say something!!
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Worms are a massive problem this year. I have just had a FEC back from some lambs wormed with ivermectin 6 weeks ago that then had a zero count 2 weeks later, now have a count if about 1000 - no scouring surprisingly but severely growth kimiting. My vet can't believe it - is pretty unheard of in january and I Stock at 1.5 head/ac in winter.....
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The PM on the ram showed a burden of 6,500, this was mainly nemotodes and something else I couldn't understand! I was drenching with Cydectin and this October gave them Fasimec Duo for the extra flukicide. I have seen that there are three different types of wormers - clear, yellow and white. Cydectin is clear, and Fasimec is white but they are both classed as clear ??? . Anyway both have ivermectin so I guess I should have used something else but there are so many out there I'm totally confused - I was advised to use the Fasimec by the feed merchant (still not sure why its called clear if it's white?!).
So seeing as both Cydectin and Fasimec have invermectin, which would be a good alternative at this time of year and under these wet conditions?
I have to make do with the ground I've got - I have five paddocks I use and some are rested for quite a few months. The field the ram died on had been rested for six months, but it is extremely wet. The paddock 3 of them died on had plenty of good grass and wasn't particularly wet. I have no facilities to bring all of them in I have 32 in total, and I am not sure housing that number inside would be beneficial. They all have access to shelter.
I am wondering if the Gotlands in particular have struggled with this extreme wet weather. None of my commercial crosses seemed to have suffered (touching wood madly!).
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[quote author=Remy link=topic=30125.msg302554#msg302554 date=135723
I am wondering if the Gotlands in particular have struggled with this extreme wet weather. None of my commercial crosses seemed to have suffered (touching wood madly!).
The only sheep I have re-current foot problems this year - despite the wet - are my Gotland crosses, so I think they may struggle more than the British breeds.
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I know I can send away fresh droppings to check for worms, does someone have an address?
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Fasimec duo is a combined wormer (clear ) plus a flukicide ( Fasinex which is white ) . Of the three types the clear are the most potent but it depends on what type of worms . Are you dosing at the correct rate for their weight , under dosing is the commonest form of wormer failure. Regular faecal egg counts before and after dosing are needed to tell if a wormer is working. The very mild weather may encourage worms to breed.
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Would agree with Shep that you need to have fecs done pre and post worm drenching to establish whether their is resistance to your wormer. If the wormer is effective but the sheep are quickly regaining a heavy worm burden post worming then for some reason they are lacking in resistance themselves to worms.
I saw that you posted on the Farming Forum and it may be worth posting again, there is a lady who sometimes posts on there under the name Frances, she has a phd in worms and resistance etc and advises farmers professionally, it may be that she would reply to a problem regarding susceptibility to worms and be able to give you some pointers. 'Frances' has purchased a ram from us to use in her family's commercial flock and certainly was extremely knowledgeable and interested in the subject when she came to buy the ram.
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The PM on the ram showed a burden of 6,500, this was mainly nemotodes and something else I couldn't understand! I was drenching with Cydectin and this October gave them Fasimec Duo for the extra flukicide. I have seen that there are three different types of wormers - clear, yellow and white. Cydectin is clear, and
6500 is immense and I would fully expect it to be dead/dying. The problem is, for most the 'worm season' ends Oct-ish, but it has been warm and wet this year, I can count the number of frosts we have had on one hand. I would keep FECing until we have some cold, and worm the rest, pronto.
Your wormer can be fully effective (as ivermectin was for me) and it wont stop them from picking up more worms if they are hatching, which is exactly what is happening.
Your vet should be able to FEC for you - usually costs £4-6 but beware: they should be asking you for a few small samples which they will then count individually and average out. If they ask you for one big lump, unless they are putting it in a blender they will not be getting a proper worm count - this has caused me to think wormy sheep were clear in the past, because perhaps one was and it was that sample where the lab stuck the scoop or whatever.
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I was about to suggest that you download the Better Returns Programme parasite control guide from here (http://www.eblex.org.uk/returns/articles-controlling-sheep-parasites.aspx) because it shows you all the meds, which class they are in, what parasites they affect and what stages (egg, larvae, adult, etc) - absolutely brilliant resource.
However, the doc at the end of the link no longer contains those tables - in fact, it's now mostly about external parasites - and I have been unable to find the tables elsewhere. I have emailed the BRP team to ask for their help, but I suspect they've had to withdraw the info as so many farms now have worms and flukes resistant to some of the meds listed. ::)
However, this document (http://www.eblex.org.uk/documents/content/returns/brp_l_sheepsbrp_manual_8_-_target_worm_control_for_better_re.pdf) is useful in terms of approach to worm management.
I have a copy of the original document, with the tables, but it's way too large to upload as an attachment to a post or PM...
Remy, can you post exactly what nematodes and the other thing you didn't understand from the Post Mortem report and I'll look them up for you?
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I suspect that there could be a little bit more than wormer resistance alone going on (if it is) as older sheep should have a reasonable resistance to worms ( not wormer resistance) and should not be going down with such heavy worm burdens, as losses sadly also occured last winter. Most of the guidance for worming applies mainly to young lambs and ewes post partuition whose resistance to worms is lowered following giving birth and during heavy lactation.
We have a small number of older sheep that are not breeding and they don't get wormed at all, despite grazing land that has carried young lambs that season etc, older sheep should have reasonable resistance unless some other problem is compromising their immune systems which would lower their resistance to worms and allow them to build up very severe worm burdens. The 2nd document that Sally attaches states "Mature, fit and healthy sheep have a good immunity to most species*
of worms so the need to treat adult sheep is limited" Fluke obviously has to be treated for in adults if you have fluke on your land but this did not show in the pm. I am not sure whether there is another worm species that healthy adult/older lambs would succumb to easily, but if you get the full details of the worms present then they can all be looked up. I would certainly be asking your vet/VLA vet if any further cause can be established as to why the ram (and previous sheep affected) have such a lowered worm resistance, do you know if they continued with the pm following finding the worms?
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Thanks for all the info. What a lot to take in! Sheep aren't for the faint hearted, it seems :P
As for the PM, they were preliminary findings and there may be more information. I haven't got a copy of the report myself so will get one from the vet when all the info has come in.
Nearly all my losses have been Gotlands, and those that weren't were young, with the exception of a 3 year old Herdwick, which died in the same field as the Gotland ram early last year. However, the PM with her did not show excessive worms! I have been wondering whether the extreme wet weather has led to trace element and mineral deficiency in my soil and that the Gotlands have been particularly affected, leading to poor immune systems which have allowed the worms to take hold. Don't know if it works that way but it's just something I've been thinking about.
None of my Gotland babies have done very well, whereas my crosses are a good weight.
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I was about to suggest that you download the Better Returns Programme parasite control guide from here (http://www.eblex.org.uk/returns/articles-controlling-sheep-parasites.aspx) because it shows you all the meds, which class they are in, what parasites they affect and what stages (egg, larvae, adult, etc) - absolutely brilliant resource.
However, the doc at the end of the link no longer contains those tables - in fact, it's now mostly about external parasites - and I have been unable to find the tables elsewhere. I have emailed the BRP team to ask for their help, but I suspect they've had to withdraw the info as so many farms now have worms and flukes resistant to some of the meds listed. ::)
I think the table you are referring to has been moved into here:
http://www.eblex.org.uk/documents/content/returns/brp_b_brpbeefandsheepparasitecontrolguide2012.pdf (http://www.eblex.org.uk/documents/content/returns/brp_b_brpbeefandsheepparasitecontrolguide2012.pdf)
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That's the very one, foobar - it wasn't there last night so the BRP folks must've responded like lightening to my email. Yes, just checked, they emailed me at 10:14am to tell me to find it right there. :)
:thumbsup: you BRP folks, if you're watching ;)
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I suspect that there could be a little bit more than wormer resistance alone going on (if it is) as older sheep should have a reasonable resistance to worms ( not wormer resistance) and should not be going down with such heavy worm burdens, as losses sadly also occured last winter. Most of the guidance for worming applies mainly to young lambs and ewes post partuition whose resistance to worms is lowered following giving birth and during heavy lactation.
We have a small number of older sheep that are not breeding and they don't get wormed at all, despite grazing land that has carried young lambs that season etc, older sheep should have reasonable resistance unless some other problem is compromising their immune systems which would lower their resistance to worms and allow them to build up very severe worm burdens. The 2nd document that Sally attaches states "Mature, fit and healthy sheep have a good immunity to most species of worms so the need to treat adult sheep is limited"
I couldn't say whether there was wormer resistance, just that the worms have kept on hatching and the sheep may well have been clear after worming in Oct - but how many frosts have we had since then?
6500 is beyond the realms of natural resistance I think, you would expect full grown ewes to be looking pretty unwell on 3000 (depending on species). It has been such a wet and warm year, conditions are ideal for worms.
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"I couldn't say whether there was wormer resistance, just that the worms have kept on hatching and the sheep may well have been clear after worming in Oct - but how many frosts have we had since then?
6500 is beyond the realms of natural resistance I think, you would expect full grown ewes to be looking pretty unwell on 3000 (depending on species). It has been such a wet and warm year, conditions are ideal for worms."
Yes difficult to understand how they could be so high without showing effects for a while beforehand whilst the level of worms was increasing. Resistance and resilience to worms are different things, resistance I believe to mean that the sheep have immunity to the worms which prevents the levels of worms building up in their guts, however resilience to worms is very different in that the worms levels can build up to a high level in the sheep and they are able to cope with a high level of worms, rather than have immunity to prevent a high worm burden developing. If a sheep has a good resistance/immunity then they should cope with a higher worm burden on the pasture and take longer to succumb if they actually do with an exceptionally high level. If they are resilient I guess they can tolerate to a certain level but I assume when a critical build up of worms is reached they would then succumb. Hoping I have got this right, it was a little time since it was explained to me, I understand there was debate on which trait to be selecting for in sheep as wormers become less effective, think probably resistance rather than resilience would be better.
Good that they are continuing with the pm after finding the high parasite burden, when I spoke to a vet the VLA, they explained that they did pms in stages, and would stop once they found the cause, this was 2 or 3 years ago though and I think it was to limit the costs incurred.
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Remy have you had a worm count done on the sheep you currently have since having the PM result?
Just curious to know if the worm count is reflected in the living sheep.
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Remy have you had a worm count done on the sheep you currently have since having the PM result?
Just curious to know if the worm count is reflected in the living sheep.
I haven't yet, there are so many things to think about and that have been suggested to me I need to form a plan! Soil analysis, supplements, worming, vaccination, worm counts - but also have to think about budget as I've had huge financial losses not to mention vets and PM fees and don't have a never ending supply of money!
At the mo I have vaccinated all of them and wormed who I consider to be the vulnerable ones. I have 32 sheep in total so would I have to do a worm count on all of them? What would the cost be?
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Hi Remy I'm not the person to ask I couldn't tell you the cost and I am always confused as to the value of worm counts as I'm variously told they will and / may not show a worm problem. I was just curious to know if you had had one done . it might answer the question as to whether there is a general worm problem or if it is more breed specific. With a worm count that high I would suspect there is something else affecting the immunity of the sheep ( Just my thoughts)
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If you google famacha system you should be able to find colour guides for using the mucous membrane colour of the eyelids to do a quick self check on your sheep, this looks for anaemia which would be a guide to whether there is a heavy worm burden. Would save some costs on fec tests or maybe help identify the sheep to have tests done on.
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Remy have you had a worm count done on the sheep you currently have since having the PM result?
Just curious to know if the worm count is reflected in the living sheep.
I haven't yet, there are so many things to think about and that have been suggested to me I need to form a plan! Soil analysis, supplements, worming, vaccination, worm counts - but also have to think about budget as I've had huge financial losses not to mention vets and PM fees and don't have a never ending supply of money!
At the mo I have vaccinated all of them and wormed who I consider to be the vulnerable ones. I have 32 sheep in total so would I have to do a worm count on all of them? What would the cost be?
Worm count the flock as a whole - should be 5-10 samples, individually bagged for the vet to build a general picture, should cost £4-6.
If I were you, Id give them all ivermectin drench - oramec is about £20/l and then worm count again after. if you can bear to wait for the samples to be analysed before you drench then do - my vet will give you a fec result in the afternoon if you bring samples pre 11am. Worm count again 2 weeks post worming.
Having said that, if I had a ewe with a count of 6500, Id probably panic and drench them all asap.
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As SteveHants says, this year has been such an awful year for livestock, all normal rules of thumb are suspended.
We had lungworm reported (by the abattoir) in our lambs in August; normally lungworm isn't an issue, they shake them off, but this horrible wet cold year, the lungworm were getting a grip and causing poorer performance. We also had flukey livers reported in 90% of our lambs in August. :o
We normally worm our adult ewes once a year, if that. This horrible wet cold year we have been worming as we fluke, and fluking religiously every 6-8 weeks all through since late summer - usually we fluke as they go to the tup (usually Oct), when he comes out, and pre-lambing. I don't want to tempt fate, but we are hearing about big losses from our neighbours, and our losses this winter so far have been low - given the horrible wet cold year. So we think the robust defence against worms and fluke throughout the summer and winter is vindicated.
We're scanning our earlies on Monday. We've been hearing about a lot of empty ewes about... :fc:
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Does your vet charge a flat rate of £4-6 plus vat or a processing charge? Mine charges about £11/12 plus vat so doing regularly gets a bit expensive. Maybe I should start trying to haggle with them!
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My vet charges £6 + VAT (I'm VAT registered, so I think of it as being £6.) My last vets were cheaper.
Since you are closeish to me, the vet concerned is Endells in Salisbury - they are very good.
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Don't know about GOTLANDS but certainly different breeds and individual sheep can have high or low tolerance to worms and can be selected for. And yes just as in people if the sheep is not 100% for any reason then immune system is in trouble and since you say your x breds are fine, then maybe a blood test on a couple of gotlands to check mineral levels
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We're scanning our earlies on Monday. We've been hearing about a lot of empty ewes about... :fc:
I'm not too optimistic about my lamb count this spring, I'll be interested to see who is and isn't in lamb :P - it's another thing I'm concerned with re. the Gotlands, if those ARE in lamb that will be an extra demand on their system.
I have been using Fasimec Duo which is benzimidazole wormer plus a flukicide. Three of the Gotland babies did have scours which have cleared up since drenching so hopefully that's a good sign - for now! Apparently over 80% of sheep farms in Wales have resistance to benzimidazole so I will change back to invermectin for my next wormer.
Re. the sampling - I just take 5 or so random samples from the whole flock of 32?
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Re. the sampling - I just take 5 or so random samples from the whole flock of 32?
Yes, 5 should be plenty, bagged seperatey. Would have been interesting to do a FEC a week after the fasinex drench and see of your worms are resistant to that - if not, you have the whole arsenal of chemicals at your disposal.