The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: goosepimple on January 01, 2013, 11:58:41 am
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...well she's on her way to death I'm sure - 9yr old North Ronaldsay looking poorly yesterday and lying zombified but still breathing just now, all the others look entirely fine. No skitty backside but our sheep field has just become pretty saturated just before Christmas - this last lot of rain has left it a swimming pool in parts, particularly around the animal shelters, we've been quite lucky prior to that. We moved all the sheep (9) yesterday to a drier field and I thought she looked a bit poorly. We haven't fluked - had just talked to my vet about that this last week and he said to collect fresh poo for a test first which is why we moved them, to get the fresh poo, but now this, sod's law. Could be cocci or fluke or don't know. We've left her where she is not to add to her stress as she's almost away poor thing. We'll get a PM done on 3rd Jan. Not the best start to the year which is a pity because last year was trying to say the least on a number of levels. :fc:
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So sorry for you :bouquet: not what you want to start the new year with.
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Awww so sorry to hear your news :'( , this weather has a lot to answer for. Chin up :hug:
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So sorry for the poorly one. It is a very crap year weather wise and it isnt good for sheep at all.
I am itching to get our borrowed ram back to his owner on 5 Jan just so he is away and healthy as altho ours have been fine (they are prob in our driest field) I do worry about them all keeling over suddenly - and only one has been fluked to date (tho I am considering doing all of them).
Can you fluke and Heptavac P+ at the same time or is that too much of a system overload I wonder?
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So sorry GP - not what anyone deserves at anytime let alone the first day of a new year - sending you big :hug:
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Bad luck and commiserations. Hope things only improve from now on :fc:
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Is there any chance that it could be pasturella, which can be treated (not always successfully) with the right antibiotics, although sounds like your poor ewe is about on her last breaths from your post :(
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Sorry to hear that Amanda. :bouquet:
We're hearing about big losses to fluke around here :( They're needing more frequent treating than usual this year, plus some flocks seem to be getting some resistance to some of the routine drugs.
I do think Heptavac-P and flukicide all at once could be a big hit. Some flukicides are harder on the ewe than others, so if you do have to do both at once, ask your vet which one would be less harsh on the ewe.
You wouldn't be Heptavac-ing any ewe which was under the weather, though?
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Hugs and best thoughts - a part we all dread. :hug: Hope you get some helpeful infomration - not knowing what is wrong is horrid.
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Re: Fluke eggs - they only show up in FECs at certain stages of the life-cycle so you may miss them altogether in the faeces. Dose your ewes for fluke on a risk-based model, unless you know you have fluke (abbotoir kill data is a good way to obtain this). So, I would dose your ewes if the ground is wet. I normally have no fluke and have dosed a lot of mine, based on where they are/have been.
There is absolutely no point in vaccinating anything whos immune system is compromised as it will not produce the correct immune response, treat the disease with antibiotics, dose when the ewe is well.
(As a by-the-by, I expect this is the reason people are losing vaccinated sheep this year as opposed to the effectiveness or otherwise of the vaccine concerned, most sheep will have been pretty miserable this summer and could well have had low-level disease)
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We're hearing about big losses to fluke around here :( They're needing more frequent treating than usual this year, plus some flocks seem to be getting some resistance to some of the routine drugs.
I don't know whether she was trying to scare me into buying some Fasinex, but the SQP at my local faem supplies shop told me a farmer round here lost 200 ewes this summer as he refused to entertain the idea he had fluke as hed never had them before.
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Thanks everyone, called the vet and described what symptoms we could see without bothering her too much, she's burying her head under a platform in the field but was still breathing about 4.30pm (last light before dark), vet says see how she is tomorrow, hopefully she will be Lazarus, will check in with the outcome, can't get her pm'd until Thursday.
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Fingers crossed for her :fc:
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Really sorry to read this Amanda, :bouquet:
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:fc: for a good outcome
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She died overnight.
I have checked her feet which are fine, blood from rear end and nostrils, not from mouth though, is this just deterioration/relaxation of carcas? Can't get her jaw open to see inside the mouth but don't see anything untoward in gums.
Will know in a few days, post mortem tomorrow and will ask for a quick result. All other ewes are happy and healthy and energetic. Will report back findings to let you all know, always a worry with Ronaldsays that there is some copper thing going on but we have been very careful about that so almost ruling that out but will mention it to pm examiner.
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That's a sad start to the new year....
But her age may not have been in her favour either...
If she had a heavy fluke burden her gums/eye lids should have been very pale, but I don't know if that would still be the case post mortem. Blood frm the nostrils can be post mortem, I have seen it in carcasses. Mucus/blood at her backend could also point to enterotoxeamia and/or cocci (unlikely in an older ewe).
It may just be that it was her time.... and if all your others are fine there is not much you can do.
I would however consider fluking them with Fasinex. I am about to get another bottle (mine are due their second dose), if you want some decanted (have you got your own drenching syringe - better value for the small herd than a proper gun) we can arrange that easily.
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Thank you Anke that's very kind. Nigel wants tests on their fresh poos rather than just fluking them on the off chance, so I will have to go with what he suggests really - I will let him know your offer. We have a big syringe and a turkey baster works well too. Will let you know either way.
All stock were hep p plus and wormed in late June and are due another dose nowish so will talk to him about that too if fluking.
Everyone still good, am keeping a very close eye on them all, big clean out again today 3rd time this holidays alone, but all stock looking good and enjoying the sun and mild weather today.
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Well see what Nigel says, if you need Fasinex I'll have some fresh.
We found out in the fist year from faecal samples that we had fluke, even though no signs in the ewes at that time... now I have to treat at least twice a year, this year I'll throw in an additional one.
Let's hope your other girls are fine - and if the goats are sharing the paddock, they can get fluke too...
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Hmm, yes had thought of the goats Anke, sheep are in separate paddock now but at the time they would have caught fluke they would have all been together. Am going to do their poo too, it's all to be labelled separately.
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Well, we are all clear on the fluke and worms, goats and sheep, great. But here's an odd one:
Our ewe that died we are told (post mortem) had died from copper poisoning (north ronaldsays have a very low thershold to copper). This was a great surprise as we have been completely careful from the outset and have only fed what was recommended and fed by the previous owner without problem for 7 years.
At first I was told by the lab she had a 'bolus' (given to cattle to slowly leach out copper) but it turned out to be an electronic tag placed there years ago as a lamb. So that was ruled out.
We then had the 3 foods we use for our different livestock analysed. Out of the 3 (maize, ewe nuts and the sheep crunch we feed to the goats), the food we give our ronaldsays had the highest copper levels, but the level still came in at under the maximum level recommended by the North Ronaldsay Society, so not high enough to poison them. So it doesn't look like its any of the food stuffs.
Before we got the sheep we tested the land for acidity in around 20 different locations and it was within the recommended levels of acidity, so no problems there.
So we are stuck - a copper poisoned sheep but no copper around anywhere at levels that would normally kill a north ronaldsay.
Are these sheep just flimsy and rare breed for a reason. ::) Having now spent almost £200 on finding out nothing apart from not having a worm or fluke problem, I could have replaced my ewe 4 times.
What am I doing ??? ??? ??? (don't answer please). All donations gratefully received. :-\
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The only thing I can think of is that your ground might have been used for pigs or had pig manure spread on it so is quite high in copper?
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The only thing I can think of is that your ground might have been used for pigs or had pig manure spread on it so is quite high in copper?
Don't have sheep but we sometimes babysit neighbours ewes on our fields so my thought too as above or has she had access to anything she could spend time licking like a copper pipe on a drinker, electric fence battery or a mineral block thats been labelled wrongly? very puzzling and awful not knowing. Hope you get to the bottom of it
mandy :pig:
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No there's only been sheep on here for nigh on 20 years and no licks or copper pipes problems - we tested the soil in various locations before we brought the sheep in and am going to test it again this weekend as OH mentioned there may be a run off from neighbouring farmers fields due to all the rain. Will also test the drinking water, we feed them from the river (never a problem here but these things may change due to the rain, river has been so high and the banking has been collapsing in places).
When dried grass has the copper content of 9mg/kg and the maximum you can give them is 10mg/kg then its difficult to get it right. Ronaldsays by reputation, do have a habit of expiring.
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OK just an idea is there anything that can prevent the uptake of copper that you could add to the diet?
sometimes other substances in the diet can balance out mineral uptake I don't know enough about how copper is metabolized and in what form to be of any more use :-\
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Thanks Kanisha, I contacted my vet yesterday asking just that, awaiting his reply.
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Our ewe that died we are told (post mortem) had died from copper poisoning (north ronaldsays have a very low thershold to copper). This was a great surprise as we have been completely careful from the outset and have only fed what was recommended and fed by the previous owner without problem for 7 years.
That's interesting - I had a 3 yr old Herdwick die early on last year and one of the things that came up on the PM was a high copper content - same with the ram I lost. Both died in the same field. I know it's not anything I have fed them and many others have been on the same field with no ill effect. There were other possible causes of death though so it wasn't clear cut.
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Tested our soil again everywhere and the river water but no levels high enough to kill anybody even the ronaldsays.
When I handed the ewe carcas in to the lab I went on at length about the copper thing which makes me think it was easy to come back to me with that as the problem.
Everything is pointing to it NOT being copper, there are no levels anywhere here high enough to cause a problem (according to the NR Soc guidelines) so I am now working on the assumption she died of something else. All the others seem in gleaming health. ::)
Think I should stop worrying and spending money.
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GP, You probably will never really find out the answer, and I have no scientific background but I have just read an article by John Laurence (Mineral Supplements Technical Manager for MVF) ??? and I quote - 'Uptake is also affected by an antagonism between the elements. A classic example of this would be molybdenum, well known for its antagonistic effect on copper availability to cattle in particular. This is where elevated molybdenum levls in the forage can lead to a "lock-up" of copper in the rumen....'
If you would like to see the rest of the article I can send you a copy. It is from MVF newsletter March 2010 (I know :-[ :-[ , I was clearing out my squalid desk!)
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thank you Bramblecot, I've either seen that article or something similar when we did our research.
It may be the case that she had a 'lock up' of copper we will never know. The rest look beaming with health and I now know we have no worms or fluke (so far) this year, so am just going to assume she died of 'something'. She was nine, we had her for 7months so who knows what has happened to her before. We are below 10mg/kg on background copper on everything and the land is good here for ronaldsays, so :fc: , we're going by the book on everything. I purposely didn't get them in lamb this year so we could see how they would fair here first....time will tell. Many thanks.
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I have a theory, unfortunately I have no hard evidence to back it up.....
Do your sheep have access to the hedges or rougher ground?
I ask because Goose Grass/ Cleavers/ Sticky Willy/ Gallium Aperine grows in such places, hasn't died back completely this year and is one of the highest copper containing plants....
Indeed it is often sold as a supplement for animals as is a good source of copper amongst other things :-\
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Thanks CW, there's only gorse in there and they leave that alone and it's very stoney ground otherwise, I'm going to keep them all just now and see how they get on, any further deaths this year and we'll have to move them on. Apart from the copper thing they are great sheep, very easy to handle friendly pretty wee things.
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Is there a way to measure their copper levels?
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Hmmm, that's a good point - I must ask that one, thanks for that.
Sure I must have done an experiment in 5th year chemistry once upon a time ... ;D
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The vet can get minerals and vitamins, including copper, levels tested in their blood - probably a good idea. Hopefully it might show up (a) if the remaining sheep have elevated copper levels and (b) if there's anything else odd that could account for unusual metabolism of copper.
One thing worth mentioning is that copper damage in susceptible sheep is cumulative... builds up over time, so younger sheep could appear fine but problems are building for the future. Also, I can't remember when you got these sheep goosepimple, but the groundwork for any current problems could have occured before they came to you?
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Thanks Sally, yes they just came here only 7.5 months ago and both from owners who appeared to be doing it by the book also, would be nice to pass the buck but who knows. Actually come to think this particular ewe had 2 previous owners...? You would think anyone breeding them would be particular considering their history as a breed.
I am aware of the cumulative effect of copper, all the food is below the recommended levels for NRs which they get extremely little of anyway and they have their own specially made tub licks, ground is all below acidity level after re-testing last weekend, so perhaps the only option is a blood test. I have lots of info from the NR Soc so working with that as the manual. Blood tests are more expense, but it's a responsibility and that ususally involves expense doesn't it. Think I'll also find out what the average life expectancy is for an NR - I get the feeling it won't be high.
Vet thinks I should stick to a less complicated breed and RBST said before I got them that they can have problems and can be a bit fragile. If they can die from the background copper content in dried grass then I assume they a rare for a reason. Pity, they are very easy otherwise.