The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: doganjo on December 26, 2012, 07:46:30 pm
-
How stupid Joe Public is. Let's hope these two have got off with it. ::)
Met a really nice, apparently sensible, and intelligent couple with a lovely happy Border Collie pup on our walk today. Played very nicely with Allez and Freckles bowing to their superiority in age, and being rewarded with play bowing and a wee chase around (him chasing them and them looking round waiting for the wee chap to catch up)
As I always do, I complemented them on the wee fella and asked if they'd got him locally - 'yes, a farm near Dollar'. And what's his breeding lines, said I? 'Don't know. He's just a pup'. Parents eye tested I said? What's that, they replied. I explained then tactfully said, oh well he'll probably be OK and you probably aren't going to breed with him but if you do you can get his eyes tested when he's a year old.
Why oh Why do people insist on buying pups from one off breeders who do not health test ! They don't pay any less and it could save them an awful lot of heartache in the future not to mention money! High time there was a campaign!
-
Yup sooo frustrating! made the HUGE mistake of window shopping on Preloved- oh my god half the ads were for pups under 6 month old for sale with tag lines like- had him 2 weeks but my toddler is scared of him. Or he is too big for our flat- how many are stolen pups sold on?? Or from actual really stupid people! Some of the pups were only 12 weeks old and most pedigree!
Was tempted buy the Sibe Husky x Terrier-wrong, but cute!
-
Doganjo, we have been looking at border collie pups on the net but by reading the adverts it does seem that most aren't from registered parents and I am guessing that therefore they won't have had any health tests carried out. Could I be wrong there ??? . Most say our bitch and dog from nearby farm .... or that type thing. Have found one litter with both parents being IDSI registered but it doesn't mention health checks. Do the parents have to have had health checks in order to be registered or is that a separate thing?
Oooooo ...... bit confused myself and I do know a little bit about dogs. With Flat-coats, I could just ring the Society and ask for breeders planning suitable litters and be put on their waiting list but doesn't seem so simple with collies.
And yes Funkyfish, so sad when you look through the ads :'( . I want to take them all in.
-
If collies are KC registered and you know the registered name of the dog you can see on the website whether they have been tested or not(you need the exact correctly spelt name though), but breeders should have the certification in their possession for you to look at. Not sure of the regulations for the ISDS (International Sheep Dog Society. This may help - http://www.isds.org.uk/society/dog_registration/eye_test_rules.html (http://www.isds.org.uk/society/dog_registration/eye_test_rules.html)
http://www.isds.org.uk/society/dog_registration/documents/DNATestingFAQsBordercollies2013.pdf (http://www.isds.org.uk/society/dog_registration/documents/DNATestingFAQsBordercollies2013.pdf)
You need to ask breeders if they have test certificates for CEA (Collie eye anomaly) and PRA (progressive retinal Atrophy) before you go looking at puppies because otherwise your heart will take over and the little cuddly puppy will come home with you. I would have thought if advertising pups for sale they would state these tests had been done on the parents. I certainly state that my dogs have low hip scores, and fact state exactly what they are.
Hope that helps
-
It's a tricky one, this.
If you are buying a pedigree (or in the case of collies, ISDS registered) pup, then 100% agree with Annie you want all relevant health checks and you should ask to see the evidence.
However, there is an argument to say that the less highly bred family mutt / farm collie is so much less likely to have any problems, you could be safer buying such a pup.
In an ideal world, of course both parents would have had all health checks anyway, but the fact is that the majority of unregistered dogs - especially mongrels - are so healthy and free from these kinds of defects that it simply doesn't occur to the owners to get these checks done.
All the cases of collie eye that I know about have been in dogs where one (or mostly both) parents were registered. It seems to not generally occur in the general population of farm collies, where two dogs of generally uncertain parentage (but both free of symptomatic defects and from parents and litters also free of symptomatic defects) are mated.
in the hills - there will be reputable breeders of working / trial collies whose lists you could go on (for instance Derek Scrimgeour up here, David Kennard in North Devon, to name two I know personally and can recommend) - but for a pet/light working dog, personally I'd go for a less highly-bred one. Best tactic is to find one locally you really like (in your case specifically checking temperament to suit life in a busy household with active children), find out how it was bred and see if the breeder is planning a similar litter. Would your farmer neighbour be able to point you at such a one, or at farms locally who produce the odd litter of this type of dog?
-
I guess I didn't do my homework as well as I thought - we got our first dog Tess from a farm up the glen from working parents, we saw both parents and all puppies were very healthy. She was pts at 18+ and had only been at the vet for being spayed and arthritis in her hips in her old age, we've done the same again with Zip - working parents and healthy siblings hope he is with us as long as Tess was. :fc:
-
In an ideal world, of course both parents would have had all health checks anyway, but the fact is that the majority of unregistered dogs - especially mongrels - are so healthy and free from these kinds of defects that it simply doesn't occur to the owners to get these checks done.
I'm sorry but I disagree. Mongrels are not necessarily automatically healthy. I have had mongrels that weren't.
I have said before that Hybrid vigour does NOT apply to dog breeding. If you breed a Labrador with hip dysplasia or PRA to a poodle with the same conditions - even though they are latent - then the resulting pups will have a very high chance of being so afflicted.
-
Thanks SITN - my neighbour has said that he will look out for a litter. He knows that temperament is the most important thing for us and that it won't have that much actual sheep work to do. He did originally say that an unregistered pup would be fine for what we want it for but when I questioned him about health checks , he said that if we want a pup from checked parents then we would need to go for a registered one. He did say that he has come across occasional collies with eye problems but not often. All his dogs are health checked but he never sells pups only trained dogs that he lets go after selecting his trial dogs. Have seen some litters on the net where mum works on the farm but is also kept as a family pet and dad can be seen. Not sure whether in terms of temperament these maybe a better option than registered pups from serious trainers/trialling people ...... these are the people that my neighbour would get pups from. ??? ..... but then they probably won't be health checked.
Anyone know how prevalent CEA is in collies?
I do appreciate the importance of health checks but trying to balance a few different things.
SITN - my collie book is ordered :thumbsup: and neighbour says that I can go up to his farm and watch and ask as much as I like.
-
I understand your point Doganjo and agree if it was a lab or spaniel etc, but working sheepdogs are just a bit different. Bred by farmers who understand stock I don't think you get the problems that you do in the "pedigree" side of the breed. I have never known eye problems in a working sheep dog, but then my parents only bred when they wanted another themselves. I would never buy a KC "pedigree" border collie because they are too inbred and have completely impractical coats and too slow (imho). To be honest I'd rather take my chances with a farm bred pup with no health checks (as long as I knew the farmer and both pups parents).
-
If you go for a well bred dog from working lines (I mean herding NOT agility) and stay away from those that breed for candy colours then generally you should be ok.
Health checks are important, but working history plays a part in this with sheepdogs IMO.
A displastic dog or a dog with limited sight can't work properly. If it doesn't work properly it doesn't get bred. Usually sheepdogs aren't bred so young as other breeds as the shepherd will want to see how the dog works first and that can take several years to decide.
Personally (and this is a personal statement not a recommendation) I wouldn't buy a KC registered Collie, as I don't think size/colour/pattern matters a jot for a sheepdog. Working ability does matter so I will always buy mine from someone who works them properly.
HOWEVER you must beware there are hundred of people breeding BC's and calling them working dogs when they aren't.
There are even more breeding them for the candy colours Red merles being the favourite because you can charge 3 times the price.
When colour becomes the most important thing you can bet your life anything that should matter will go straight out of the window >:(
I have had so many people ask me if they can put their dog over Red Dog, just so there will be different colour pups. She's spayed so it'll never happen but not one of the people asking me to breed her have ever asked me if she can work :rant:
-
I think this is the biggest problem - there is absolutely no regulation on breeding dogs in the UK so anyone can do it - and Mr & Mrs Joe Public have very little information to guide them.
Just because a 'working' collie is bred does NOT mean it is free from CEA or PRA unless it's parents or grandparents have been tested clear. A regular test is required unless DNA is used.(not sure if it is annual or bi-annual)
-
Well being an owner of a collie (Rascal ) who has collie eye I would say to anyone do not put yourself through the risk. Health checks a must. He came from a working farm stock. both parents first class sheep dogs, yet poor Rascal has only 85 percent normal eye site. I had thought I had asked all the right question but what I should have done is asked to see paperwork, proof that health checks had been done on dog and bitch. Our vet told us that finding a collie pup now a days that does not have some form of the disease or carry the gene is hard to find. Rascal is a sweet loving dog, just over a year old who will never have a normal life.
-
Is it right that you can't tell if they've got collie eye till 6months old?
-
My neighbour has just taken his litter to have their eyes checked and they are less than 6 mnths ..... didn't ask him whether the test was for all eye conditions though ??? . I thought he said that they used to be checked annually but now have just one check and that's it. Spoke to him today again about diseases in collies. He said that in general they were a healthy breed and that most PRA had been eliminated. He said that CEA did not usually cause total blindness and that the pup would have it when bought and it did not usually get worse. Said some people wouldn't realize that their dog had it.
He said that he didn't think that many breeders tested for HD. Is that the case for collies?
Sabrina - how is your collie managing?
-
Responsible breeders in every breed will do the health checks relevant to that breed. These diseases are rarely totally eradicated. Sorry but it's either ignorant people or wilfully irresponsible people who say these things. As Sabrina has discovered paperwork is what matters - not hearsay.
Once again here is the list of required and recommended checks.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1100/abshealthreqs.pdf (http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1100/abshealthreqs.pdf)
-
Mmmmm and reading that Doganjo it states hip testing to be carried out. Reading "Border Collies" by B. Sykes at the moment and she says that she does not believe HD has ever been a problem in BC and that good qualities could be lost if we spent too much time breeding for the perfect body. She does stress the importance of soundness however.
I can't see mention of hip testing in information I am reading about health checks required by the ISDS. This is what my neighbour will be familiar with and not KC recommendations ...... he is I believe a very responsible breeder, owner and trainer but works to ISDS rules and regulations and not KC. I presume this organisation has the interests of BC as its priority so I wonder why there is a difference there. ...... Or have I got that wrong ..... still trying to get the facts together.
-
He said that in general they were a healthy breed and that most PRA had been eliminated. He said that CEA did not usually cause total blindness and that the pup would have it when bought and it did not usually get worse. Said some people wouldn't realize that their dog had it.
ITH I'm afraid that PRA is a disease which gets worse over time and often by 3-5 years the dog can be completely blind.
PRA= Progressive Retinal Atrophy which means the disease of the retina steadily gets worse. It starts with difficulty seeing in the dark then low light and finally cannot see at all in daylight. Some cases are more severe than others, there is no telling how quickly the sight is going to deteriorate.
It is still widespread, possibly because people are still breeding without checking whether one or both parents are carriers.
-
My vet said that collie eye can be detected at 6wks. My neice has a Border Collie who is coming up to 4 years old. Ben has had both hips done at a cost of £3, 500 . He was bought in lanarkshire.
-
Forgot to say CEA is more commonly a mild form in collies but there are reports of severe cases which lead to blindness. Again, you won't know how severe it will get, although it tends to be severe quite early on in the dogs life if it is going to be severe.
It can be painful as the tissue at the back of the eye can bleed.
HD is less common in working collies I think because they are chosen for workability rather than a show dog. It was rare in GSDs before they became popular for show and pets. Now the police are looking at Belgian shepherds (Malinois )because of less inherited conditions and more ability to do a days work than the now spoilt GSD ( but I still love them :love: )
-
Yes Mammyshaz that fits with what my neighbour said ..... PRA caused blindness and was usually a more severe condition than CEA. His pups must have just had the CEA test .... only a few weeks old and the whole litter was being tested at the same time. He thought that in a lot of cases this did not cause complete blindness, unlike PRA.
I am aware of PRA from dealing with gundogs but only learning about CEA.
Interesting about GSDs ..... could a similar thing be happening then to BC's in the show world ..... hence the KC stating HD testing as a requirement but not the isds (from what I have found so far). Oh dear :sofa: .
-
It is a big possibility, but there again I'm not a lover of the show world. :sofa:
Show dogs are bred to look to what a written standard specifies. There are many ( not all ) of these dogs which should be able to work, struggle to walk around the block :innocent: but they look good in a ring ;D
I try to stick to working lines from dam and sire, and choose ones that I can see or have seen previous litters which have hit adulthood. It's not totally foolproof but the odds on a subsequent good litter is high :thumbsup:
-
I know exactly what you mean Mammyshaz. :sofa: My father used to show Flat-Coats and think I still know the breed standard word for word. ::) ;D They are smashing dogs and I still love them but they do have problems ..... high cancer incidence :'( . Puts me off having another. And as for some poor breeds :'( .
-
Hi,
I just typed my post and was previewing it, when it said there had been another 5 posts, so applogies if I seem to be repeating what has already been posted.
I breed and train ISDS reg border collies, you cannot register any puppies until both parents are eye tested by an approved vet for CEA & PRA, some dogs are also DNA tested for CEA. When a dog has been DNA tested and the result comes back as either having CEA or as a carrier, you can still breed from these animals, BUT only if bred to a DNA tested clear animal, the resulting pups would then need to be microchipped and DNA tested before they can be registered, the results of the DNA test will then be printed on the reg certificate. I believe that the only way to be sure when vetinary eye testing for CEA is to test puppies under 8 WEEKS of age, after that, carriers of CEA can sometimes appear to "go normal".
As for hip scoring, I personally don't do it, as any dog I have that cannot do a hard day, gathering ewes and lambs out on the hill, would never be bred from, but the incidence of HD in collies that actually work stock is very low.
The very first dog that I bought as a pup, and then trained, had CEA, I didn't find out untill he was 2 years old, but I thought something wasn't quite right, however once I knew what the problem was, I found that I could work around it. When I took him sheepdog trialling, I could only send him on a left hand outrun, he always crossed on the right, and sometimes when he was following sheep he would appear to lose sight of them, he was a great dog and did very well for me, he lived until he was just short of his 16 birthday, and is buried in the orchard, under a greengage tree.
-
Thank you Cheviot. Corrr ..... it's not simple is it. Your post is really helpful to us, as we know very little about collies and I am eager to find out/understand as much as possible. Your post will help us to know what to ask. :thumbsup:
-
Cheviot, when the time rolls round for me to have another collie pupper (not for many years yet :fc: )I'm coming to you ;D
-
that is so clear and concise..... :thumbsup:
-
That's what I thought CW ..... but quite far from us in Powys .... I checked ;) :D
-
Cheviot - "but the incidence of HD in collies that actually work stock is very low" - is that a personal observation or can it be proved? I'm wondering why the KC stipulate hip testing as 'required' by their Assured Breeder Scheme rather than just recommended. These Assured Breeders, although they may register dogs with the KC, are quite often working their dogs rather than showing. The AB scheme is not just for show breeders, it is for all breeders who want to register their dogs with the KC. I don't know much about the ISDS (or collies to be honest) so I am also grateful for the information.
It should be noted that Breed Standards were originally written by working owners not show ones.
-
I had a GSD x Collie once - as rescue, so the parentage was a guess, but I'm pretty sure that was the cross - a very fit and agile dog, jumped stone walls and gates at a single leap, even in his old age when he was a bit arthritic and needed help over stiles there were still no symptoms of displasia. But I'd had his hips x-rayed when he was anaesthetised for castration, just so's I'd know - and they were terrible. Hardly any cup to the socket at all, the vet said. He never showed any symptoms because (a) he was always very active and fit and had loads of muscles to help hold things together and (b) collies are very stoic - so even if there is pain, they often don't give any sign of it.
-
Its hard to find any breed of dog without some problem. I lost two Irish Setters to cancer. Now its common in lots of dogs and cats. would be interesting if research was done into their food. Did cancer in our pets start with ready to feed meals or has it always been there. I once read an article from a Canadain vet who said that years ago it was rare and lots of dogs lived well into their teens and he was doing a study with dogs that were only fed the way owners did in the past. We lost a German Shepherd pup at 5 months, hip joints so bad she could not hold herself up. All the paper work was made up, not any of it was from the parents. People will do anything for money.
-
Hi,
Cheviot - "but the incidence of HD in collies that actually work stock is very low" - is that a personal observation or can it be proved?
It is a personal observation, I don't think it can be proved, as hip scoring in ISDS collies is very rarely carried out, it is only really in the last few years that more ISDS people are doing it, but only because, if they want to sell puppies and dogs abroad, most of the overseas breed societies require it to be done before they will allow the dogs to be registered with their societies. I personally only know of one ISDS dog that was diagnosed with hip dyspaysia, but I do believe, that there is a lot of truth in what Sally says.
I'm wondering why the KC stipulate hip testing as 'required' by their Assured Breeder Scheme rather than just recommended. These Assured Breeders, although they may register dogs with the KC, are quite often working their dogs rather than showing. The AB scheme is not just for show breeders, it is for all breeders who want to register their dogs with the KC. I don't know much about the ISDS (or collies to be honest) so I am also grateful for the information.
It should be noted that Breed Standards were originally written by working owners not show ones.
I really do not know anything about the KC, but the purely KC reg show border collies in general are different, they are breeding them to have short legs! and square heads, usually with a rough coat, and the markings seem to be important features also.
My personal thoughts are as soon as you start to radically alter a breed there are prices to pay, maybe the hips have suffered, in the quest to breed short legged dogs, but I really don't know.
The ISDS do NOT have a breed standard, they are only interested in the working ability of the dog, so ISDS collies come in all shapes, sizes, coat length and colour.
These Assured Breeders, although they may register dogs with the KC, are quite often working their dogs rather than showing.
When you say working, do you mean working livestock, I only ask as I know a lot of breeders and trainers of ISDS collies, and none of them are interested in the KC or becoming assured breeders. I seem to vaugely remember something about the KC holding working tests for dogs, I have no idea what they required in these tests, but a german girl once told me that the KC reg dog she had bought to work sheep would be OK as it had passed it's working test, turned out it had no interest whatsoever in working sheep!
There are however a growing number of ISDS reg dogs also reg with the KC, this I believe is, because quite a number of pups are bought by agility people, and so it is easier for them to be able to compete in the KC affiliated shows,when their dog is already reg with the KC.
-
I understand your point Doganjo and agree if it was a lab or spaniel etc, but working sheepdogs are just a bit different. Bred by farmers who understand stock I don't think you get the problems that you do in the "pedigree" side of the breed. I have never known eye problems in a working sheep dog, but then my parents only bred when they wanted another themselves. I would never buy a KC "pedigree" border collie because they are too inbred and have completely impractical coats and too slow (imho). To be honest I'd rather take my chances with a farm bred pup with no health checks (as long as I knew the farmer and both pups parents).
agree !!
-
All I can think of is the farmers would see how the dogs are and so breed to produce a dog that they want, I cannot see why they would want to breed from a mature female or male that had obvious health or behavior problems, farmers are business people and would not want to waste time and money on breeding pups that were likely to have health problems, I so remember years ago my father in law getting new sheep dogs off his mate as he liked their dogs...that's the old traditional way and suits border collies......not the same for pet breeds though and that's when health checks come into their own....
-
Not all inherited diseases show symptoms at an age where some dogs are bred(as early as at their first season!!!). Sometimes a dog can be 2 or even 3 before symptoms show up, some are carriers and symptoms do not appear but can cause illness in progeny.
It is only common sense and SENSIBLE to do ALL required health checks whether in a working dog or any other.
Just my honest opinion and NOT restricted to KC registered, whether Show or Working.
-
The problem with HD is that it isn't actually very genetic. Big factors are poor diet and over exercise before the skeletal system is mature. The recent fashion for feeding raw means we may be seeing more older dogs with poor hips.
I know of several people who have bought pups from parents and grand parents with very low scores, and the pup they have bought is crippled.
-
A lot of people do not understand the need for only moderate excesses and walks until the dog is fully developed, I hate to see cute little pups on long walks...we see that all the time...the owners have no idea....Its actually the same with children, my eldest used to push herself sports wise and often had shin splints due to constant running and cross country, all my daughters did loads of sport.....its all about moderation, I am very concerned that my Yellow Lab is far too fast and throws herself around all the time, goes up the highest banks and runs constantly, compared to my Chocolate Lab who has a sprint then dawdles around.......Collies tend to be fast and agile so can do loads of damage to themself as juvenile dogs, people however will never change!
-
Sandy, Rohan wasn't out on her own yesterday was she? - saw a yellow lab wandering around on the pavement near your front gate but was past before I realised - only just thought about it now. Hope she's OK.
Agree entirely about young pups getting too much exercise too soon, and also about there being some environmental influence on hips - but what you see happening is a throwback if a pup has bad hips from low scoring parents. In order to get all hips low scoring (in fact zero) you must only breed from hips as near to zero as possible. Anything above 10 will increase the chances of raising the score. I have spoken to Malcolm Willis about this at length and that was his opinion - he instigated the BVA/KC HD scheme. A survey was done in America which came to teh same conclusion. It HAS to be consistent - just one higher than average hip score puts it all backwards again.
We had a bitch about 26 years ago with a 30/28 score - she had come from a kennel (aged 14 months when we got her) where she had no exercise except to leap up and down on her back legs. Malcolm told us her score was possibly 50 % environmental - but we heard later that her sire had been put down at 9 because of the pain in his hips, so in fact environment was of little influence in this case.
Malcolm was of the opinion that genetics are largely responsible for high hip scores,and that the way to reduce them was to always breed only with extremely low scores - the problem is that the gene pool is then restricted which is why it is not done and we are not very further forward.
-
No, ours were locked in...Impossible to get out, then get back in......there is a dog across the road that keeps getting out, not a pure yellow lab but a cross.....that dog has need out a few times, it's very young and as our house has strong dog smells they all come here, there are other labs near too.....ours were with us most of he day.......we nipped out for a short time but they are padlocked around the back...one out...all out so def not Rohan...
-
Thank goodness! :relief: I only thought about it tonight when I came on here It didn't cross my mind it might have been Rohan till then. I know you're gates are always locked but I wondered if you'd maybe been unloading the car and she'd slipped out. Glad it wasn't her. :relief:
-
The people across from us have the most lovely dogs but are no good with them...one day I will steal them ;)
-
Hi,
Thought I would just update this post, as the rules for breeding from ISDS dogs has radically changed recently,and my previous post is now outdated.
I breed and train ISDS reg border collies, you cannot register any puppies until both parents are eye tested by an approved vet for CEA & PRA, some dogs are also DNA tested for CEA. When a dog has been DNA tested and the result comes back as either having CEA or as a carrier, you can still breed from these animals, BUT only if bred to a DNA tested clear animal, the resulting pups would then need to be microchipped and DNA tested before they can be registered, the results of the DNA test will then be printed on the reg certificate. I believe that the only way to be sure when vetinary eye testing for CEA is to test puppies under 8 WEEKS of age, after that, carriers of CEA can sometimes appear to "go normal".
The new rules are:
All puppies to be micro chipped before they can be registered, this rule is in place now
From the 1st June 2013, all dogs and bitches that are to be bred from must be DNA tested for CEA. So from that date there will be no need to eye test litters of puppies.
Not sure when this rule will be in force - dogs now need to be eye tested by an approved vet for PRA when they are over two years old.
I have also just been informed that petlog will now transfer any puppies that have been micro chipped with the breeders name and address into the new owners details for free, it is only this first transfer that is free, any subsequent change of details will incur a £15 charge
Regards
Sue
-
My collie loving neighbour has just told me about these changes. He took his dogs and bitches for DNA testing last week.
-
DNA testing is the way to go - a simple cheek swab with a type of cotton bud. They can define a great number of inherited diseases this way. HD still needs an x-ray though. and believe me, breeding from dogs below 10 consistently does work - the lines in my dogs have never been above 5 or 6 even after 10 generations of breeding from French imported stock with only A level hips under their scheme (A, B C1, C2)
-
Aw well my collie is a farm pup on the farm are his dad, aunt, both 10, his mother and her aunt both 4 all happy healthy hard working collies and that was a good enough reason for me to pick one of his litter. I took the only dog puppy out of 8 healthy pups. All now working dogs.
Probably and most importantly, I was picked by the farmer as a good home for the pup, All his litter were free to good homes only. As he was breeding his own replacements not breeding for profit. He has retained 3 of Toby's sisters who work both sheep and cattle. The two 10 year old dogs are happily retired on the farm.
Wouldn't it be nice if more farmers thought that way.
My pet hate though is pet animals not being neutered or spayed if your not going to breed. Why not! I've heard some appalling reasons like you could't possible cut his nuts ect off. ???
Toby got done at 6 months. Since I've been asked a few times to mate him but personally I think there's plenty of pups out there needing homes without me adding to them.
I wonder how many people have their working collie pups to the vet for a check up, when they change hands and do they get them their injections. I do know farmers who seem to think they don't need vaccinations or socialized their animals as they will never leave the farm. I don't agree with that mentality.
My first ever dog Sky was a Collie Whippet from the local dogs home fantastic dog didn't have any health problems until she was 12 when she got a dodgy heart she lived on til 15 and was pts because of Cancer, accidental mutts are fine it's the designer ones you've got to watch out for!
-
Before we finally decided on a collie, we did look through information on other breeds as we were worried as to whether a collie could live happily as a companion dog and do a little sheep work/obedience/agility etc.
We currently have a Flat coated retriever ..... hyper and as silly as they come but we love him. Did consider another but checked on current findings regarding cancer in the breed because we believe a problem exists. Can't remember exact figures but it was something like half would have cancer by 8 years of age and most die from it. :o :'( Won't go into all the ones that I know have died from it .... some only 12 mnths old. Found a blog by a lady that was only going to keep rescue ones in future. She thought that breeders weren't addressing a serious health problem and that maybe flatties should be out crossed. Put us off. :(
-
We currently have a Flat coated retriever ..... hyper and as silly as they come but we love him. Did consider another but checked on current findings regarding cancer in the breed because we believe a problem exists. Can't remember exact figures but it was something like half would have cancer by 8 years of age and most die from it. :o :'( Won't go into all the ones that I know have died from it .... some only 12 mnths old. Found a blog by a lady that was only going to keep rescue ones in future. She thought that breeders weren't addressing a serious health problem and that maybe flatties should be out crossed. Put us off. :(
Yes, absolutely correct - a friend of mine has just lost her FC bitch at 7 from cancer - it is prevalent in the breed and they just seem to accept it.
Sheepcrazy - My pet hate though is pet animals not being neutered or spayed if your not going to breed.
Absolutely 100% with you. Far too many dog being bred, far too many healthy ones being destroyed for no other reason than they can't find new homes quickly enough. If you don't have a good enough or fully health tested dog, don't breed - why do you need to anyway - money!
-
Doganjo - send your friend my love :bouquet: . They are dogs with such a love of life ..... it is so sad. :'( I had my first flattie as a teenager ..... he was my dog to show and work. Lost at 7 to liver cancer. His brother went at 8. Sister lost a bitch at 18 months. Most of that litter died before 8 from cancer of one sort or another. The breeder of my current lad lost his uncle at 7 years. I could go on ...... :'( . Dad moved to working labradors so I am a bit out of touch with things now. Why isn't anything being done I wonder ??? .... surely better to do some careful outcrossing than let things carry on.
Did have some Flatties make 14 .... :fc: for my lad. Will break our hearts to lose him.