The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: thenovice on December 21, 2012, 08:58:10 pm
-
Evenin all. Been offered a few old southdown ewes by a friend, and was wondering how old is too old to put them with the ram? I think they are getting on a bit. Whats your experience folks? :thinking:
-
It's not their age but their condition which counts and their condition is often governed by their teeth. If they have all their front teeth and no signs of problems with their molars, then all other things being equal they should be ok to lamb.
If they have started losing their front teeth then best to steer clear. Something to bear in mind is that once you decide to cull them, if they go via the knacker the cost of disposal will soon add up, something you don't have to face all in one go if you start with younger animals.
We keep primitive breeds and have found the Hebrideans in particular are very long lived. The oldest ewe we bred was 16 but she lost some teeth over the winter of that last pregnancy so needed extra care. She lambed and reared twin ewe lambs but now she is losing teeth we won't breed from her again. We do often breed teenage mums ;D but only if they have their teeth.
-
As well as checking teeth, don't forget to check udders - it should all feel soft and pliable down there, no hard lumps.
-
As well as checking teeth, don't forget to check udders - it should all feel soft and pliable down there, no hard lumps.
Yes - I'm a bit too fixated on teeth ;D
Also, when I mentioned condition, you do need to check it carefully, plus all the other things you would check on a ewe of any age :sheep:
-
If they are ok to breed from - as described above, then its a good idea with something fairly commercial like a southdown.
You will get one or two lamb crops from them then stick them in the mart as culls and get most of what you paid back, thus keeping your flock depreciation low.
-
My understanding is that if ALL the front teeth are missing but the molars are in good shape, then a ewe can be fine if she's fed appropriately. It's wobbly teeth or just one or two missing that cause the problem.
When I worked on a faarm in Northumbeland, my boss had an ancient ewe called Petsy and she raised quads (with a wee bit of help).
-
we got our first sheep from the mart and one in particular had no teeth...lol. we did have to put her to sleep in the end as she got so thin. :innocent:
-
If ewes have never lambed, at what age would it still be possible to have them put in lamb? I just wondered if there was a maximum age at which it would not be safe/sensible to let them lamb if they'd never lambed before? Thanks
-
If ewes have never lambed, at what age would it still be possible to have them put in lamb? I just wondered if there was a maximum age at which it would not be safe/sensible to let them lamb if they'd never lambed before? Thanks
good question. with ponies its supposed to be 16 yrs ish for a maiden broodmare. dont know about sheep.
-
We tend to have a lot of our commercial ewes go to 8-10 years+ happily raising twins or triplets, If you are going to breed just remeber the gestation is 5 months & their normally put to the tups around August - October time for late winter / early spring lambings although some people do lamb around xmas (God knows why??? - too much hassle), you also have to work out will you lamb indoors or outdoors (Ours are out during the day & we check 5-6 times day & night approx every 2 hours when their in the barn next to the shed at night.) But we do have 200-400 normally.
Also bear in mind:
Purebreeds & crossbreeds finding the right tup ( What offspring has he produced? e.g poor quality lambs)
Crossbreeding - If you do avoid large headed breeds like texels & charolais as their a sod to lamb even for experienced people & often resulting in c-sections (Although great meat breeds)
What you will do with the lambs after? If their male you will have to separate off after 6 months if kept uncastrated (Its easy to do.) To avoid unwanted pregnancies ( Can you bring yourself to ring castrate them yourself or eat them?) & extra females can't be kept if you own the father. ( A good one would cost around £400+)
Stud fees
Scanning will you do it? (Again more cost)
Weaning - This is normally done from 4-6 months ours are normally 5-6 months (But some people do wean from 3-4 months which I think is cruel :()
Extra veterinary fees (It's not uncommon for c-sections)
How many you've got to lamb?
Physically knowing how to lamb a ewe having problems giving birth.
Resuscitating lambs or ones having trouble breathing at birth.
Predators - foxes, dogs & badgers will happily take lambs upto 2-3 months in size.
Housing (Young lambs don't like draughts or cold frosts) & we tend to keep ours in indoor pens with the ewes for 3 days -2/3 weeks depending on weather / lambs size or number of lambs.)
The right feed stuffs
Extra feed portions & costs (These & feeds will differ when in lamb & actually when they've lambed) & bottle feeding if need be (It has to be done every 2/ 3 hours)
Ear tags ( you have to either give them breeding tags or kill tags - & they are now electronic & cost around £3-£5 each & should be done from birth.
Livestock movement laws - check this with defra but you have to record all animal movements off your home premises. (Its easier than with cattle though.)
Hmm right I think that's all of it covered - I'm sure there's more that people can exspand on but if your intending on getting sheep - I would talk to your vets & local sheep farmers who do it on a large scale & also invest in a good sheep management book for beginners or 2. I personally love working with sheep & prefer it to cattle work & I do love lambing time but for us it is a mental time of year which can be both very mentally & physically draining when doing large numbers ( Its ok for people who have 20 or so which tend to really take their time lambing >:() But when you have 400 or so over a 2-3 month period with maybe just 1 or 2 upto 20/30 a day lambing & you have no pens whatsoever left to put any because they've all decided to lamb at once, then maybe bottle feed some & feed all the others plus other livestock, let the ewes out & check approx 10 times a day & ring castrate a load & move a load onto pasture & individually feed approx 20-30 ewes penned with lambs & bring the ewes in again at night & maybe lamb 1 or 2 & maybe call a vet amongst the other farm work - you'll appreciate we don't get much sleep & rest that time of year if you know what I mean :tired: :tired: :tired: ;D ;D ;D xx
-
Sorry god that was an essay x
-
That was some essay, SL! :D
Crossbreeding - If you do avoid large headed breeds like texels & charolais as their a sod to lamb even for experienced people & often resulting in c-sections (Although great meat breeds)
I just wanted to say that in my experience, Charollais is an excellent choice of tup when you want an easy lambing - small, lively, slippery lambs, we hardly ever get any problems with lambing our Charollais x lambs. The very thin 'skin' really helps - makes them more slippery - although it does mean if the weather is evil when you lamb you will need to jacket the lambs as they have hardly any wool to keep them warm.
I agree that Texels are not a good choice if looking for an easy-lambing for a first-timers but it isn't their heads that are usually the problem, it's their shoulders and rumps.
Exmoor shepherds say that if using an Exmoor Horn tup, you want to try to make sure you're getting twins - a single ram lamb with well-developed horn buds may have too large a head for an easy lambing. :o
What breed is/are the ewe/s you are considering tupping, moprabbit? Some breeds are naturally more roomy inside and through the pelvis, some less so. I'm not sure I'd want to try lambing an aged maiden Swaledale, for instance - there's not a lot of room to get in and help with a maiden shearling, let alone an older lady who presumeably would be less loosened up than a youngster.
-
If you had older ewes to lamb for the first time, Id be tempted to try and give them as easy a time as possible - something very easy lambing...
Shetland? Wilts horns are very easy lambing (in spite of the horns), Lleyn? Southdown?
Id also manage the feed - older maiden ewes will probably have been better fed than production ewes of the same age, having not had to devote any energy to raising lambs. I would keep them very tightly fed - probably no sups, maybe minerals with no energy - drench etc.
-
Mmm sally I do agree on them being slipperery lambs & prone to the cold with charolais (& not to mention very ugly - just my opinion) But I just find in the vets 7/10 times its those breeds or things like 3 quarter crosses ect that either need lambing or c-sections but they do finish with very good meat carcasses quickly - although I'm a rare breeds person myself really (Wish I had time for some - someday :( ;D) But saying that all of ours except for about 15 of a flock of pure zwarbles (Great lambers & lean carcasses by the way) are Texel crosses as we have about 12-14 texel rams & 1 zwarble ram which when finished with his girlies joins the main flock ;D ;D ;D, but our ewes are a mix of assorts such as clun forests (my personal faves), shropshires, Kerry, welsh mule, suffolks, Jacobs (Another fave), Texels, speckles (don't know the breed name their some crossbreed), & various crossbreeds so to be fair we very rarely need to call the vet & I think last year we had 1 c-section & we maybe lamb say 20 in 2-3 months out of 200-400 so its not bad going & = 5-10%
-
I love Southdown however I have 2 crossed with Wilts Horn and they are both tight in the pelvis making lambing difficult. I had a third but had to destroy her and lost both lambs cos couldn't get them out. Also used Southdown ram for a couple of years and although gorgeous meat quality, I had some ewe lambs which also had the tiny pelvis and no good for breeding.
This breed are also very fleecy and I have found more prone to fly strike and squitty poo. Not a worm problem as I have a mix of breeds and always the same offenders.
-
Im a big southdown fan too, but as you say, not the easiest of lambers. I only had 2 ewes, last year, and both needed assistance with delivery. It was my first lambing, so how about that for averages! Got 9 to lamb next spring, and combined with the cases of SBV that are starting to reappear, im a little nervous. Maybe i should pass on the old ewes, and try another breed. Thankyou for all the helpful advice folks :thumbsup:
-
Southdowns are my main breed and I expect my ewes to produce and rear good twins until at least 13 years old. One of the problems with sheep of any breed that haven't been kept on commercial lines is that they become pets and are kept and bred from when on a commercial farm they would have been culled and their lambs finished, not kept for breeding. In our flock anything needing more than a pull at lambing, failing to mother up immediately, having too little milk, not keeping her condition through lactation or getting in lamb within the 3 weeks that the ram is in for - GOES. All the ewes still have all their teeth and I haven't seen mastitis for four years. I don't, however, show my sheep or buy show quality rams. Everything here has to be as tough as old boots and, apart from the ewes in late pregnancy, get by without any hard feed.
-
Thats interesting :thinking: , how many ewes are you running, and does that mean that your southdowns are unregistered? The problem with starting a flock from scratch is the cost of the sheep, and because i dont have the numbers, i can sell my lambs for a lot more if they are registered. Im not a landowner, and i have a young family, so the animals have to pay for themselves :yum:
-
You ought to still get a half-decent price for your lambs if you develop a reputation for running your flock along commercial lines, and added to his, you will be pampering them less so your cost of production will go down, thus, hopefully keeping your margin the same.
-
That's what I do, although I only register and sell for breeding an animal that I would keep myself if I had the space. Anything else is sold as an unregistered store or ends up in the freezer. Because of our ruthless culling policy that's only happened with surplus ram lambs for the last four years. I sell breeding stock direct from the farm so buyers can see for themselves the quality of the flock and how tough they have to be - quite a few of our buyers are from Wales and want something that can cope with really bad weather (actually the South Downs, being high ground without much cover just a few miles inland from the English Channel, is quite challenging at times). I'm presently running 61 Southdowns alongside a flock of Badger Face Welsh Mountain (Torddu), breeding the BF's pure for replacements one year and crossing with a SD for commercial type lambs the next.