The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Remy on December 20, 2012, 01:07:22 pm
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Went out to do a headcount today and found my little Herdwick ram lamb dead, stripped of everything just the skull, backbone and fleece left, just like my Gotland ewe. He was a well grown lamb too, the one I had for sale in Marketplace :( . He was fine on Tuesday, typically yesterday I was ill so didn't get out so it has to have happened then or overnight. It just has to be a fox or a dog, but that little ram had a real go at my Staffie X who was going for him and she is a strong dog so he wouldn't have been an easy target as he was flighty too. He was with a smaller Gotland who I would have thought would have been the easier of the two to get, as he's not so substantial and friendly. He is now in a stable, and am wondering do I dare risk putting him in with the other three adult rams?
I have 29 sheep out the back field 10 of whom are ewe lambs, I don't have space to bring them in. They are with the horses so don't know if this would keep them safer. I don't know what else I can do short of sit in the field 24/7 with a gun?! :-\
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I have a similar problem with a fox - not lambs but have lost two geese. Neighbours have spotted him in broad daylight. Rather than stake him out with a gun I've borrowed a fox trap as I have a good idea where he hangs out. Will let you know how we get on. We have to sort him out before lambing.
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I have lost geese before to foxes which is why I no longer keep them, much as I like them. But this lamb was well built (see pic in marketplace) and I don't know if foxes can take them that size? ???
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The stripping of the carcass is probably down to crows, magpies, buzzard or other, plus of course fox, badger and possibly mink(?) will also come for a meal. I have both foxes and badgers in my fields every night (fresh footprints most mornings) and so far have not lost any of the sheep (bar a very young lamb in spring), so I would think that a fox is highly unlikely to go for a healthy fit tup lamb.
If I were you I would re-booster all my stock with an new batch of Heptavac P+.
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The problem to a fox/dog regarding the size of the sheep that has died was kind of why I was wondering if it were a problem on the land with some of your animals being more resistant than others. My feelings are the animal dies and then scavengers come along. All animals are hungry at this time of year so the carcass would be stripped alarmingly quickly. Worth a consideration? The Moredun Foundation MAY be able to advise as they specialise in this sort of research.
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I'm with Anke on this one, I would booster your flock now. I lost a wether lamb to clostridia within hours even though fully jabbed. I wouldn't think a fox could take a ram, but a carcasse is another matter altogether.
:hug: :hug: :hug:
It's horrible :bouquet:
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Poor you :bouquet:
Yes, get the flock jabbed up, and it wouldn't hurt to give them some minerals (a good drench - chelated is best) as well.
:-* :hug:
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Either badger or wild big cat maybe ???
We have had the same with three calves, all within weeks of eachother the only thing left was skull, backbone and hind legs, we had them looked at and apparently it was badgers! as they have stronger jaws than a fox has
Poor little herdwick :'(
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The carcase damage is badgers. The sheep was probably down or dead when they got to it. Ive had that happen - the bones still smell fresh.
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Well the man at my feed merchants said it sounded like badger, and that they could kill a sheep if they managed to get it while it was down. Incidentally three of the dead sheep were all found in the same area of the field near the badger sett. All that was left of the carcasses in two of the cases was skull, backbone and a pile of fleece. Another one was just a pile of fleece and the lower hind legs; the fourth one was found intact with a hole in its side which the man said was classic badger.
I think it's probably that the badgers are getting the carcasses, it's whether they are actually killing them? How would a badger kill - by attacking the throat?
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In our case, the calves had been killed by something 1-2 days after birth and not born dead also in the same field and near where thier mums had hidden them, laying down in the longer grass at the edge of the fields. yes they were small and two were twins but we are sure the badgers (or whatever it was that stinks and left wirey silver hair) must have killed them.
I'm not sure how a badger would kill though
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Been t'internetting the subject and general reports are that badgers may risk taking a newborn or very young lamb and indeed may well eat an already dead or dying sheep but very unlikely that they will attack them and kill them. I'm really concerned for you and your sheepies hon. Isn't it worth investigating into the land itself to see if any answers lay there? I'm not an expert on parasites but everyone's land is flooded and muddy and soiled right now, perhaps there are some very small nasty beasties attacking your sheep. I hope you solve the mystery as this must be just dreadful for you. I know how much you care for your animals.
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I would definitely be walking your ground sweet, could someone be dumping hedge clippings? If it isn't clostridia, then poisoning is a likely culprit.
I really don't think that whatever is eating your sheep is what is killing them. For a badger/fox to take a well grown animal, that animal must IMO have been very sick if not dead already :(
What are you feeding? Is anyone else feeding them?
Have you moved grazing?
Does any other livestock share the ground or boundaries?
Is there any old roofing felt they can get to? Or polystyrene blown in?
Are you near me? I would gladly come help you scour the place if you want :hug: :hug:
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Agree with those that have said it would be unusual for a fox to take a fit and healthy sheep/lamb. We have several foxes that come through our sheep field and paddock ever evening without fail, and we have never had an attack on the sheep from them. However, said foxes have taken several of our hens in broad daylight. I also do not think a fox would strip the carcass so much as described. I have had in the past apparently fit and healthy sheep just die in the field - running around one day with no signs of illness and then found dead in the field the next day. Perhaps this happened to your ram lamb and a badger or similar just took advantage of an easy meal. Horrible thing to have happened though - :hug:
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Very sorry to hear this & don't have any other wisdom to add to what others have said... :(
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The day the vet came out to see our dog-savaged lamb, he mentioned that the same morning he'd been called to a cattle farm up the road. There were 2 half eaten calf carcasses and the farmer was incredibly stressed about what's going on. Until we knew for sure a dog had attacked our sheep there was all sorts of theories about what was roaming locally. I really hope you get to the bottom of this, it sounds awful for you :bouquet:
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It is awful not knowing the reason, and even more weird that in three of the cases I was away from home. The first casualty was Dixie, one of my favourite Gotlands ewes, she was an adult. This happened in September after I had been in Cornwall for four days - she had been fine when I left. I came back to find her skull and backbone in the field.
The next two casualties were this year's Gotland lambs; a ewe lamb and a wether. Both cases happened in November. There was no skeleton at all of the ewe lamb, just a pile of fleece and the remains of her hind legs. The wether I found whole, with a hole in his side. I took him for a PM but it was inconclusive as he had been scavenged and wasn't fresh.
All the above three had died in roughly the same place, near a badger sett.
The fourth was the Herdwick ram lamb, he was in a small paddock with a Gotland ram lamb. All that was left of him was a pile of fleece, skull and backbone.
All of them except the adult ewe I had not checked them for a day or two as in two instances I had gone away and the most recent I had been ill! So they couldn't have been dead for more than one or two days. With the adult I had been away for four days so she could have died any time then. All of them had been absolutely fine when I checked them last.
My fields are totally stock fenced with metal bar gates. I had not been giving them extra feed as they had enough grass. In fact the sheep I lost had the best grass of all the fields! They had not moved grazing. No other livestock shared the grazing (except now all the ewes are in with the horses as their field is the best drained with a large field shelter). No roofing felt/polystyrene had blown in - I always remove any rubbish I find beit baler twine or bits of plastic bags.
I am going to ask my vet (he used to farm sheep); I've also been trying to ring my neighbour who has sheep grazing on his land but he's been out.
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Both Pasteurella and Enterotoxeamia can kill a healthy (looking) animal within 24 hours. I took my wetherkid to the vets in the evenning as I felt something wasn't right. Vet didn't find anything! Kid "waltzed" out of the surgery on a lead, much to the amsuement of the other customers there - he was dead by the morning!
Re-vaccinate your stock!
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I'd be tempted to rent or buy one of those wildlife cameras, if you think it's happening in the same spot, and you are satisfied that they were all *jabbed properly* with Heptavac etc. You certainly have lots of wildlife around given the amount and speed of carcass stripping, so it would be interesting to see what you have around. Alternatively, sit out and watch quietly on a full/fullish moon - you will probably find that you don't need to sit out all night long before you see something.
I've had one lamb drop dead overnight for no apparent reason, and it's body was still in perfect condition the following morning, and we have plenty of foxes around and a whole city of crows in our trees[size=78%].[/size]
I'd also see if you can find someone to check on them every morning for you if you go away. If it happens again you need to get the fresh carcass to the vets for a PM to check for disease, or the cause of the wounds identified. There's no point if it's not fresh.
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I have rung the vet and he said that he doubts very much foxes or badgers would actually have killed the sheep - if it was a predator it would most likely be a dog or big cat. He said I shouldn't need to vaccinate if they have already been vaccinated which they were, but I should use a flukicide (even though they all had Fasimec Duo in October).
The thing with the vaccination is that they will all be due again in February (a month before lambing) so if I vaccinate now do I do them again in Feb ???
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two questions is it possible for the badgers to have gotten into the paddock where the last one died?
on the days when you are not there or are sick what is different about the routine?
I hate to ask this but....... when you are not there is the dog let out unsupervised to do his bits and pieces.
It would sound by all accounts as if the badgers are responsible for profiting from the remains of a carcass but is it feasible that they could have access to all the paddocks and even if they did why would this only happen when you are not present?
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Badgers could feasibly get in under a five bar gate.
Nothing is different about the routine when I'm not there.
We did have an awful suspicion it could have been the Staffie x we have rescued as hubby lets the dogs wander around the yard when I'm not there and he doesn't watch them all the time like I do - but it couldn't have been possible she could have got the Herdwick, and she'd have had to jump two five bar gates into mud in order to get to the sheep, and she hates getting dirty!
It's such a mystery .. :-\
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When were the lambs vaccinated (both shots)? and when were the adults?
I would fluke them again for sure - 10 weeks after the last dose - or now, make sure you get the dosage right - don't under dose. Use that same product if that's all you have - a combination product is not ideal, but the flukicide in it is the best type for now.
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If a badger could get into the paddock then I don't see why a staffie cross couldn't. Don't consider only the five bar gate but the rest of the fencing. A JRT can scale a six foor fence by climbing the fencing like a ladder. If the dog is only unsupervised when you are not there there is one very BIG reason to suspect the timming of the deaths is not coincidental.
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She couldn't have been implicated with the Herdwick as she hadn't been out on the day he must have died ..
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If a badger could get into the paddock then I don't see why a staffie cross couldn't. Don't consider only the five bar gate but the rest of the fencing. A JRT can scale a six foor fence by climbing the fencing like a ladder. If the dog is only unsupervised when you are not there there is one very BIG reason to suspect the timming of the deaths is not coincidental.
my big fat labrador can squeeze under stock-fencing.
we had a missing sheep once, 2 days after the dogs were going bonkers in the middle of the night. all we found was the skull and spine and legs. she was lying under trees so what ever ate her, ate her quickly and completely. it was v embarassing handing over the bones to the knackerman as it looked like she'd been dead for months.
my 3 dogs took down a deer once when unsupervised, which is very rare as i usually know exactly where they are.