The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: Ladygrey on December 18, 2012, 05:41:39 pm
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Hi there,
This has been going on for the past few months but I am at my wits end and for the first time have pregnant ewes in this field.
I Moved into this house 2 years ago last month, we rent it off the estate (stratfield saye estate, where they filmed warhorse), 4 acres came with the house and there is a 2-3 acre paddock behing my house where I keep my sheep (part time).
When I moved in, the field had been shut off and left for years, was very overgrown and wasnt fenced, I fenced it in and worked with it until its now a nice grazing paddock.
When this years shooting season started, first the beaters would climb over the fence and start BEATING amongst my sheep! sheep so so stressed and they run around and around the field till they are panting, then after the beaters went the shooters do the same!!! :gloomy: :gloomy: :rant: :rant:
My dad went outside and asked them what they thought they were doing and they said they have always come across here for years so we cant stop them now! We emailed the estate and they said that those werent their shooters and beaters, they are part of a farm estate on the other side of the road and that they have always beated and shooted across that way and we cant stop them!!!!!
There is no footpath across that field! we see them climbing over our fence and walked through our pig pens aswel as into the sheep field.
I am moving the sheep onto my boyfreind's dairy farm this weekend but the pregnant ones will be coming back home mid february.
Do I have a leg to stand on!? can they really beat and shoot on my rented land amongst my animals just because the last tenant allowed them to?
I feel like going and getting a viscous bull to keep in my field :furious: :furious:
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In terms of coming onto the land, maybe by usage over x years they may have acquired a right to walk across the land. But they definitely would NOT have a right to do anything other than cross via the route they have used - they would need permission from the landowner to do anything other than walk from A to B without loitering. Nor would they have the right to cause suffering to livestock.
TBH tho unless the landlord has some balls to tell them to stop it could be quite difficult.
If it were me - I would move! I couldnt put up with that sort of stress.
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The problem is, they used to walk from A-B by crossing diaginoly across the field, so they are actually doing this still, climbing through one pig pen and across the sheep pen. the last tenant used to let them release some pheasants into the field and used to beat and shoot with them! so we came along and ruined their plans I suppose!
However when we looked around this house and land they were keen for us to use it for farm animals with no mention towards any shooters/beaters using the land! they said that the shoot operated nearby!
at the moment yes we are looking at moving house
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As the local police, maybe the fact you rent the land and would be at risk from anyone shooting on it , worth a try.
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Assume they have the sporting rights? Might be worth contacting BASC to see where you stand. Totally inconsiderate of them!
Helen
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surely it depends on your landlord, and if they have given them express permission to the land?
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They certainly seem to have rented you the land under false pretences. You definitely need to seek some advice. Hope you get it sorted asap.
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They are legally obliged to do a formal written health and safety assessment. Bet they haven't. See the BASC website.
They can't claim a right of way without evidence of uncontested use over 20 years. If they want to do this its several months effort with the Land Registry, some costs and no certainty. Until then its "sod off, I've called the police" plus criminal damage.
Plus tell the RSPCA. They must be good for something.
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Tell em to sling their hook.
Shoots would go ballistic if you 'walked your dog' through their cover crops, perhaps threaten to do that.
I say this as someone who shoots/beats by the way.
Your field is grazed down, unlikley to hold any birds anyway.
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Presumably they have dogs with them - they are considered to be worrying your sheep if they are in the field - let them know you have a gun and will shoot the dogs if they are seen in the field again. Put notices on the fences that any dogs seen in teh field are considered to be sheep worrying - not that you'll shoot them - the implication may be enough. I wouldn't take my dogs beating in a flat grazing field with sheep in it either
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Raise the hight of your fences by another foot with 3 extra strands of barbed wire and electric tape on top . :thinking: just make it too awkward to consider climbing over or through.
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By time your sheep come back in feb the pheasant shooting season will be over it runs mid oct - 31st jan, so you should have no worries then.
Then get prepared as Tiz said with new higher fences put in writing to the shoots that you are not prepared for them to traverse your land due to animal wlefare and suggest they take alternative routes.
mandy :pig:
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There seem to be a lot of 'barrack room' lawyers here.
The sporting rights can be seperated from the land a thus a new class of property is created at that point and this can be treated like any other sort of property. When buying land or renting land you should be clear whether or not the sporting rights are ‘in hand' (that is, the landowner owns them and has not let them out).
http://www.countrylife.co.uk/blogs/article/505989/Need-to-Know-Buying-property-and-sporting-rights.html (http://www.countrylife.co.uk/blogs/article/505989/Need-to-Know-Buying-property-and-sporting-rights.html)
http://www.burnetts.co.uk/publications/factsheets/countryside-pursuits-legal-implications (http://www.burnetts.co.uk/publications/factsheets/countryside-pursuits-legal-implications)
In this case it would clearly seem that the sensible thing to do is to find out who does own the sporting rights and then discuss a workable solution (such as being warned in advance so that you could pen sheep in or limiting the number of days disturbance etc).
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Years ago in the last house we had with a few acres of land I went out to hang my washing out, I had small kids too. aged 7 and 5, as I stepped out my own house I encountered a whole row of men toting shot guns and using my garden wall to give themselves cover as the woods behind me were driven. They were shooting over my house!!!
I was livid, especially since the keeper knew us and knew we had children. no warning they were coming, nothing. I rang my solicitor to double check on rights. I knew I had riparian rights but was less sure on shooting. :rant:
They never returned once they realised that an angry mum and some noisy children, was a force to be reckoned with. :roflanim:
Times have changed and the new generation of keepers, think they can just drive onto our fields in their damn 4x4's..park and shoot..*&**%&*())(&^^^ :rant: :rant: :rant: not only do they NOT have shooting rights but when they do sneak in like they own the world they rarely pick up their spent cartridges....The only deterrent short of the law, seems to be to be there when they appear. Even if it is only one or two days a year it is one or two days too many. :huff:
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Years ago in the last house we had with a few acres of land I went out to hang my washing out, I had small kids too. aged 7 and 5, as I stepped out my own house I encountered a whole row of men toting shot guns and using my garden wall to give themselves cover as the woods behind me were driven. They were shooting over my house!
I thought there were restrictions on shooting close to roads/properties?
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So it all ends on the 31 Jan and you have until the Autumn to sort out a plan. Check what rights are over the land, if the shooting rights belong to someone else then you are stuck (the fact that you keep livestock on the land is probably here nor there as they would argue that you should have known about the shooting rights prior to renting).
It would be well worth a chat with the gamekeeper.....Perhaps you can work out a deal. Best of luck.....
I'm gobsmacked that these people are so inconsiderate. I work in the shooting arena and wouldn't of thought for one second that anyone gamekeepers I know wouldn't have tried their very best to work around you.
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Thanks everyone for your replies!
We were not told about this when we moved in, only that the shoot operated "nearby" the first year we lived here, we woke up to find 4-5 landrovers parked outside our kitchen window! with the men all walking around our garden!
We complained and they now park further down our track (we are the only house down a bumpy dirt track)
However they still walk past our kitchen window, around our chicken shed and up into the field, the field has very short grass but thick cover and hedges all around it, which they beat the pheasants out of and towards their field.
Seeing my two little kunekune boars run up to greet these people at the top of the field, only to run back down screaming in fear after they started shooting was really sad :gloomy:
We have called a meeting with the estate manager and game keeper and will see how it goes, if they have been walking across their for the "20" years and we cant stop them then we will move, as yes the shooting stops end of january but from next year I will be lambing beginning of january.
Possibly we can cut the cover/hedges right back and move all our fences to right up against them, leaving nothing for them to beat at and nowhere for pheasants to hide!
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A neighbour of mine rents her property from the estate. She has 9 children. The landrovers park in her yard, under her kitchen window, and the guns sometimes stand on her front lawn and shoot directly over her house. As a pheasant narrowly missed her kitchen window last season, she was livid to hear the guns remark, "better luck next time, you nearly got that window". She usually gets about 10 minutes notice that they are about to arrive and is expected to open the gates for them and has to run around locking up her dogs and getting the children indoors. She feels unable to complain as she feels she may lose her home.
You are not alone in having problems.
Surely if your field is now well grazed they won't need to use dogs to flush game from there as it won't hold birds and if they are just using it as a "right of way" then the dogs should be at heel anyway or could be if you can reach an understanding with the gamekeeper.
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Might be worth getting advice from the Tenant Farmers association - or the NFU?
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I'm pretty heavily involved with shooting and my remark was nothing to do with the legality of the situation - it just isn't 'done'. I'd be embarrased if I was on that beating line and would have a word with the keeper myself. Beaters aint paid enough to put up with hassle, they usually just do it for fun.
And as for people shooting in front of ones house etc - Id be tempted to ask the landlord how up-to-date his insurance policy is, and make it abundantly clear if a pellet goes anywhere near you, your stock or your property, you will be claiming.
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Agree SteveHants, as even if landlord doesnt want the hassle of rocking the boat, whatever tenant replaces the OP will likely want to keep livestock to - to me unless they can do that then the land is useless/ worthless to the tenant and the rent should reflect that.
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There is a serious health and safety point.
We were on a public bridleway a few years ago on horseback with hi-viz jackets. The beaters were beating over the bridleway to the guns lined out on the other side. We were seen and acknowledged by both groups. Then a bird flew over and the man on the end raised his gun and shot directly over us. All hell broke loose and we halted the stampede about a quarter of a mile away. It was a real hang on like grim death moment on a narrow path with low branches
They were pretty apologetic but the local field master's husband was in the line so it was "just one idiot".
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Poor you, LG :bouquet: It's horrible when you think you've found your idyllic home and then something like this comes along to burst your bubble. :hug:
However, hopefully you have time before the next season to get things on a better footing. Would it be possible for you to move the sheep into a building or different field when the shooters are coming? They will know in advance where they're likely to go beating, I would have thought, and should be able to give you a day's notice of a likely visit. I do hope there's someone sensible and understanding on the shooters' side who can work something out with you.
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This kind of carry-on is just why I won't ever contemplate renting a property to keep livestock on... My last house (a tied house), they basically shot across my garden (with goats in it). I'm sure they told the landlord when they were coming, but his mantra was "information on need-to-know basis", so we never knew what was happening. That included range rovers driving across the yard at full speed, with kids and pets out to play... Those bl**dy mates of the manager's also treated us poor "labourers" like s**t. The looks we got from those gits - they clearly said everything; we actually had to work for a living, whereas they saw making our life hell as the living they had to make!
Sorry - shouldn't have started on this - it still hurts.
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This kind of carry-on is just why I won't ever contemplate renting a property to keep livestock on... My last house (a tied house), they basically shot across my garden (with goats in it). I'm sure they told the landlord when they were coming, but his mantra was "information on need-to-know basis", so we never knew what was happening. That included range rovers driving across the yard at full speed, with kids and pets out to play... Those bl**dy mates of the manager's also treated us poor "labourers" like s**t. The looks we got from those gits - they clearly said everything; we actually had to work for a living, whereas they saw making our life hell as the living they had to make!
Sorry - shouldn't have started on this - it still hurts.
(Which reminds me - a friend of mine had proof that members of a hunt shot towards her (rented) house, with dogs and kids in the garden... Does it make you wonder why I am so against everybody who shoots "for sport"?)
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People shoot on land near us but due to the fact that both my neighbours have horses not on any land around us thank goodness. years ago I almost lost my chickens when shooters were in the area. They were after geese in the field next to me. Now due to the horses are banned. :relief: