The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Land Management => Topic started by: waveneygnome on December 16, 2012, 12:31:11 am
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I am a townie.
But I have recently managed to purchase an unloved field of 10 acres in Norfolk.
It has had nothing done to the land in years.
Grass/scrub is knee height at present. Land is gently sloping, free draining, sandy soil, mature trees surrounding 3 boundaries, road access to one side. Some fencing to the roadside only, but not animal proof.
I drive past it everyday to work....and kind of bought it at auction on a whim....in a rush.......without my usual research/knashing of teeth......as I wanted to do 'something' productive with it, had had a bad day at work, and a letter from the bank saying that my savings rate was being reduced to 1.25%. I don't have much spare time to do much myself, nor have any equipment.
a) it has not been registered for any SFP scheme. Can I apply for a holders number, and then SFP?
b) What could I realisitcally do with the field?
c) I have already been contacted by 3 people wanting the use the field: one chap wants to use it for shooting; another wanting it for sheep grazing and said he would fence the field & ay me rent of £30 per acre; another wants it for his daughters horses but hasn't talked about price yet.
d) Is there a crop that I could try and grow myself that requires little time input?
I love outdoor work, but don't have enough spare time to do it (I work 80hr week). I have some funds available to invest if necessary (equipment/fencing/stock).
Any advice greatly received.
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I managed my brother's farm in Norfolk for a couple of years when he was overseas. Because I live in Scotland I had to use a contractor to do the work for me, with just an occasional visit by me. It worked surprisingly well. The main crop was field beans, which needed to be sprayed for weeds a couple of times then harvested and gave a good return. Actually the full story is that the contractor made a mistake with washing out his sprayer after using it with a weed killer which damaged beans, before refilling it to spray my crop which was damaged, so a proportion of the payment came from his insurance, but my return was the same. It was just good luck that I visited when the crop was showing damage and could work out what had happened. If there is a contractor nearby (mine was in Attleborough and had to travel a fair distance) you might get a good rate for him to work your field.
If you want to go for renting it out then approach an agent (up here it's the livestock mart) who deals with land lets, so you get the right price.
There have been discussions on here before about renting out land and the general advice was to do it officially and get a contract, for your own protection. There seem to be lots of pitfalls.
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I'm sure that was a good whim :thumbsup:
As Fleecewife says, get an agent to give you an idea of a sensible rental price, what options there are (grazing, cropping), and guide stocking levels. If it's very scrubby they may suggest some clearance work first, or will tell you what stock would do the best job to get it into good shape. I would also get a quote for fencing. Then you can work out whether the £30-and-he-fences sheep man is a good and appropriate deal or not. (Assuming his fencing will be a good, permanent job, of course, not just temporary fencing that he'll take with him.) It sounds low to me, btw. And I would make sure you agree a maximum stocking density, and/or minimum sward length, and a month or more when he'll take the sheep off to rest the ground and to prevent the keep let becoming a tenancy.
I presume if someone is considering it for horses there isn't any ragwort?
Have fun with it! How lovely to see it on your daily commute :)
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Re: the sheep man - £20/ac /yr is what Id pay for fenced land. If he's offering over the odds, might be worth finding out why...and Id offer considerably less on 10 ac.
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Whereabouts in Norfolk - we may be interested too :D
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Re: the sheep man - £20/ac /yr is what Id pay for fenced land. If he's offering over the odds, might be worth finding out why...and Id offer considerably less on 10 ac.
You wouldn't get much land around here, Steve!
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Stay away from the bloke with daughters horses, they'll be a nightmare..... experience talking here :(
Bloke with the sheep seems the best bet as mentioned by others. Make sure you draw up a contract between you that suits both parties, particularly notice periods and payments on DD.
Mandy :pig:
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In the East I would say £30 / acre / year with him fencing it is a fair price. In the West it could be treble that.
That's probably what I would offer if it was near me in Kent.
I would steer well clear of the other two offers even if they offer you significantly more if you want a quiet life.
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Depending on its location you may be able to split it in two and sell one half with planning permission for a house - or you could just sell a small portion for a house (0.5 acre). As a very rough rule of thumb, if you can stand in it and see 3 other properties, you may get planning permission. This would make it worth a lot more money than growing a crop and looking for a return, particularly if the weather we have been having the past few years continues. It would take the pressure off having to find a return from it and you could relax and grow what
you like :garden: or just look at it on the way to work and think about how you could leave that job and get mucky.
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Re: the sheep man - £20/ac /yr is what Id pay for fenced land. If he's offering over the odds, might be worth finding out why...and Id offer considerably less on 10 ac.
You wouldn't get much land around here, Steve!
I hear that a lot - supply and demand, I guess. Lots of people round here don't want to look after sheep for whatever reason - land is on HLS (in which case they will practically pay you to put sheep on) or they are mostly arable and don't want an extra enterprise or, quite often they don't like sheep. I have one or two who like the idea of helping someone on the farming ladder and aren't too worried about anything other than a peppercorn rent - they are close to 'retirement' age (Although with farmers, I concede retirement and death are often one and the same). I hear rents are higher in sheep country, but the OP is not in a particularly 'sheepy' place. Having said, that even in a sheepy place, could you command top rent for a parcel that size?
What I actually pay on my 'proper' rented ground is 20p/head/week.
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Well if you just bought on a whim and keeping for an investment/enjoyment I would find someone keen to work it and graze it. I would bite someone's arm off for the chance to use that sort of ground for my sheep. Many like me can't afford to buy but need reassurance of regular grazing.
I am just about to lose a similar field now transformed due to relationship breakdown. I wouldn't let horses on unless on short let as they will poach ground and over graze but I am sure a smallholder with sheep and/or pigs will have great fun clearing it for you at no cost. Our pigs did a brill job although now needs power harrowing and re-seeding!
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Is there an Agricultural College nearby? - perhaps they could use it as a teaching tool for a while and from then you may be able to find a good young person who would rent and run it well, giving you access too when you want it.
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Easton College maybe ?? Just up the road from you.
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I've been speaking to a farmer down this way (Essex), and he rents a 1 acre fenced field for £50 per month for grazing cattle, he says it is a good price, depending on where abouts in Norfolk you are, £30 per acre could be about right.
Personally I'd avoid people with horses... especially those who have just bought one for their daughter! Among other things, if the land has been unused there could be a large number of plants poisonous to horses, which a newbie horse owner might not be aware of, or able to identify.
A sheep farmer, however, probably knows his stuff and has a quick look over the land before making you an offer. Plus sheep can pretty much eat anything!
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Almost all the small parcels I have are ex-horse places.
The landowners get so fed up with poaching, bale string mess, gateways being chewed up by 4 x 4s towing boxes, heaps of horse crap not being picked up, muckheaps in the corner etc etc that they will let me graze it for a lamb in the freezer and the promise of no hassle. :innocent:
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Will also need a water supply for stock but I'd be inclined to go with the sheep man. Around here it's called Grass Keep and the season runs from April 1 to October 31 so the ground's rested in Winter. It can be grazed or used for haymaking as the renter wishes. The sheep will eat pretty well everything, including weed species within the first few weeks of Spring growth, and their muck will fertilise the ground. Horses are very selective feeders and will poach the ground, which means the grass plants are pushed under the earth and the following Spring weeds grow in the resulting bare ground. The ground will be choked with thistles, nettles and docks within a few years - the seeds can last for decades in the soil, just waiting for a good light level to trigger germination.
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Thanks for all the advice.
a) Spoke to several people at Easton College & felt like I was passed around the houses.........end result - they were interested, but didn't know who would be the best person/department to take it forward.
b) No chance of planning - I haven't checked, but I'm pretty sure the seller would have done before selling it!
c) I have read up about horse grazing now, and can see the pitfalls.
d) Sheep man still keen and sounds like nice chap.....and I'm warming to the idea. He is planning to bring water to the site each day/top-up a large IBC container that he would like to leave on site.
For clarification, he is offering me £30 per acre, per yr = £300 per year............NOT £30 per month, per acre = £3600 per year. Local land agent has said this is too low, and would expect from £100 to £200 per acre per year (£200 top end for horsey people!)
e) Have put in motion buying entitlements for the land, which should bring a small income at least for the next 2 yrs (until reform of current system is announced).
f) Have planned meeting with local Wildlife Advisory Group in Feb, to assess what more can be done to improve biodiversity/management of the land/hedges/trees etc.
g) Have been offered £30k, yes £30,000 MORE than I paid for the land from a local landowner who missed the sale...............tempting.
Next meeting planned is with Mr Sheep......expect some arm wrestling and hoping to increase the £30 acre/yr price.
Thanks again for everyone's input.
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Hi,
Can you tell me a bit more about "buying entitlements"? I can't understand the whole SPS issue. for a start I thought you had to be a farmer, as defined by the European Union, in order to access any funding or support????
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Oh don't sell it, you'll forever wish, what if? Don't rule out planning eventually either, the people are revolting, slowly, so you never know. Its a great time waster thinking about where house will go, what it will be like etc :love:
Back to reality though, I'd look for a better offer from your sheep man and have a contract sorted via land agent for your own protection then give yourself a year or two to think about what you want to do with it.
I've had my current land for 18 months now, only 6 acres though, but i've found i keep having changes of mind as to what I should do with it, or where X Y or Z should be (funds and other assorted problems permitting!).
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We aren't far away, 30miles southwest of Norwich and pay about £80 per acre per year for decent grazing
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Thanks zwartbles, that's helpful to know.
Tregwyr - I'm still learning, but it think this is how the SPS payments work:
To get paid you need (a) land (b) entitlements (c) be registered as a business with the Rural Payments Agency (d) your land has to be registered also with the Rural Land Register (e) your land has to be officially mapped/identified/checked by RPA/RLR.
a) Land bit was easy - I bought it and is classed as 'naked acres' i.e. naked of entitlements.
b) Entitlements, are simply a RIGHT to claim SPS payments............without them, you can't claim. In addition if you can't claim under the SPS, then you are also restricted in claiming from other environmental support schemes. Entitlements are sold by the hectare - you need to buy enough hectares worth of them to cover your productive land (see (e).
I bought land with no entitlements....there are people/farmers out there who have entitlements but no land (as they sold land off earlier for housing/developement/naked) = I need to approach them directly or via a land agent or a few companies now on-line, and try to buy their right.
c) You need to register with the RPA as a business. This can be done by phone if you have the address of the land, your bank details, your contact details. They did try and put me off at first & sent me round the houses....until 2 hrs later came back to the same person........who registered me = I now have Single Business Identifier number.
d) You need to fill in a form RLE1, which you outline your land. The Rural Land Registry check the boundaries of neighbouring land, and send you a map with the number of hectares they think your land is. NOTE I have been advised this can be an interesting exercise. You buy a 5 hectare field....says so on estate agents sales particulars....but when you try and register it with RLR, it come back at 4.7 hectares (land area can go up as well as down). There are mechanisms in place should you dispute the boundaries/findings.
e) To qualify under the SPS, the land has to be deemed productive, so during the mapping process, any Permanent Ineligible Features (PIFs) will be removed from you total field area. E.g You own 5 hectares, but there is a 0.5 hectare pond, 0.25 hectare concrete pad, 0.15 hectares worth of hard track = 4.1 hectares are only available for production. NOTE: I have been advised to wait until the mapping is completed BEFORE purchasing entitlements. This is to ensure that I buy enough of them should my land shrink or grow a little.
Once you have all these in place, you can make a claim under SPS. Deadline for SPS claims is 15th May, and if everything is in order, you should get paid in Nov/Dec.
Wow....lots to take in I know.
Is it worth it?..............I'll write about this on another post!
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d) Sheep man still keen and sounds like nice chap.....and I'm warming to the idea. He is planning to bring water to the site each day/top-up a large IBC container that he would like to leave on site.
For clarification, he is offering me £30 per acre, per yr = £300 per year............NOT £30 per month, per acre = £3600 per year. Local land agent has said this is too low, and would expect from £100 to £200 per acre per year (£200 top end for horsey people!)
That sounds fair, especially for rough grazing (as it will be if its overgrown).
Land agent probably hasn't seen the land.
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I am a townie.
Don't worry the majority of people in the countryside are nowadays especially the south east
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To be fair Mr. Sheep man is going to fence the land, look at the cost of that and consider that into the cost of rent!
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Thanks for the info re SPS. Sounds awfully complicated and an awful lot of hassle, probably means keeping paperwork up to scratch etc in order to qualify?