The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: FiBob on November 27, 2012, 12:28:58 pm
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Hi all,
Complete newbie to the whole farming scene! I'm trying to write a report on it too! I was wondering, to get a better insight, if anyone could tell me what their current biggest issues are that are affecting the prices of their livestock when they go to slaughter? I'm trying to get a rounded picture, so all information is so gratefully received! This is not just limited to pigs, if you breed other animals, I'd love information on them all! Thank you all in advance!
Fibob
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Hi there FiBob,
Welcome to TAS. Draw up a chair, and pass the biscuits, eh? Hope you'll like it here. Most TASers seem to be as mad as hatters, but there's a wealth of knowledge and a breadth of experience on the forum that you'd have to go far to find access to through other routes.
It'd be nice to know who you are and what the report is for? How long, and how detailed is the report to be, and who will be reading it? What sort of decisions might be made as a result of the report?
There are many different factors that affect prices, as you have rightly noted, but both to know how to respond to your question, it'd be helpful to know where you are coming from.
Are you looking for broad brush stroke answers, or detailed costings?
I'll pop back later (when BT allows - we keep on losing our broadband connection thanks to the rain) and see in more detail what you are looking for.
:wave:
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Hello PolishedArrow!
Awww, that's really welcoming of you, and I plan of spending a fair bit of time here!
I work for a procurement firm, as an analyst, so ideally I'd be looking to get detailed costings. I don't just want to use the media and news reports for information - I want to know what affects food costs from the source. My reports (which will be monthly) are being used to help advise clients/buyers across the UK how the markets look - but more importantly why. It's all about allowing buyers to make informed decisions. From a psychological background, however, I'm keen to be as accurate as possible and learn as much about the industry as I can too.
Thanks,
Fibob
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Thanks for that but I am still a bit bemused... your firm is procuring what, exactly?
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We're a procurement/purchasing firm in the catering/hospitality industry.
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To be honest, you are asking a very wide question here, and we could all write long essays that may or may not help you with what you are trying to achieve. I think you would get better results either if you ask simpler, more direct questions and then left space for us to answer as to why we respond as we do, or if you said what a specific report was about that month, and then asked us for our opinion on the subject... There's no shortage of opinions in this place :D
Are you wanting to be in a position to advise customers on how to buy the cheapest meat for their business? I say meat as you are fairly specific about one question - what affects slaughter costs. That in itself is quite confusing. To me, slaughter costs are the costs the slaughter house charges me (eg £20 for a sheep).
If you are asking what I would charge someone for a dead pig from my farm, the answer would depend on what type and age pig they wanted, and what for. If they wanted pork prepared for a freezer from a 6 month old pig, then they'd pay somewhere around £250 for it. If they would like a fatter, older animal for charcuterie, then it may be £300. If the hotel down the road wants me to supply two pigs a week to them every week for a year, they'd probably get them (un butchered) for £160-£200 per pig depending on age.
Matters affecting the price of my meat include:
a) by the cost of feed and whether the product I am raising is part of our ordinary business or as a 'special' (ie if someone wants their pig fed on acorns and forage rather than concentrates and cider pressings, then they will need to pay for it)
b) by what I believe the customer will pay (hotel wants regular and local. he wants a photo on his wall showing that he knows where his pigs come from, but doesn't have the margins that a wealthy housewife from London has. His custom is bread and butter to my business and gives form to my year's pig plans. I therefore charge him less per kg than the family who want to visit the piglet, have photos and updates on how it is growing and decide they would like me to feed it the whey from their home made cheese).
c) which slaughterhouse we are using (the prices of these vary).
d) who is butchering the pig. If we do it, it will be a cheaper price per kg than if it is done by a local master butcher.
e) the cost of basic foodstuffs for the animals themselves.
I'd say this is a 'rounded picture', or at least, my rounded picture. Another person may have different ways of doing it, such as the person whose boar we borrow. She has ALL finishers from their 8 sows made into sausages (plain) and sells them frozen from the farm gate for £5 a bag which weighs about 750g... There is nothing that affects the price she charges for her meat! Or hasn't been for some time. And they produce a hell of a lot of sausages between the 8 sows and 2 boars :)
Which firm do you work for? In what sort of quantities are the clients likely to be buying meats, I wonder? It'd be interesting to hear more about the reports as and when you write them - we might learn something from them too :thumbsup:
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Fibob
Having spent 20 years teaching livestock farming to young people entering the farming industry I find it a bit frustrating that companies hire people who know nothing about the industry into such influentual positions. I am comforted (a bit) by your obvious keeness to get 'real' information. I thoroughly recomend you spend a few days actually getting dirty on a few farms for the real background .... a forum is very clinical (although very useful) source of information.... and can lead to lots of misinformation though, through interpretation of the written word and lack of clear questions to answer. Have you tried contacting your nearest agricultural college?
If you give further information on who you work for and what exactly your reports are used for (sorry but |I have always been suspicious of vague introductions) I'm sure several of us on here will be able to give you answers to specific questions.
Linda
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Guys,
Thank you for your replies!!
I really do appreciate them. I was thinking it would be good to get down a farm and see it all first hand, but I'm on strict deadlines so I'm having to use the best resources I can. I totally understand your viewpoint too, Linda, I did not fully comprehend the details of the job I had gone for (I don't think even the company did at the time), and I do not fully understand why they would hire me - I have no purchasing or farm experience, I'm just good at writing reports. I guess, unlike others, they maybe thought I'd put in the work to find out the background information. I don't like to do half a job.
At the moment, my questions may be vague, because I don't fully comprehend the bigger picture yet. But opinions are good! Very good. Opinions open up the thought process. At the moment I'm doing a meat and poultry report, it follows a what, why, future kind of theme. And from you I'd love to know the why too. How do you feel about what is going on, about prices you get for meat and livestock, what direction you feel the market is heading in. You can see better than anyone what is having an effect on your farms and your animals etc.
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there have been a few piggy costings done on the forum in the past, mihgt be worth a search. ill have a look later.
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Having spent 20 years teaching livestock farming to young people entering the farming industry I find it a bit frustrating that companies hire people who know nothing about the industry into such influentual positions.
And I know the frustration from the other end - having gained two degrees in agriculture I can't get a job because research into farming issues etc is done by folks with social/economics degrees who know sweet effing nothing about what really goes on...
Good for you for trying to catch up on the "knowing"!
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Like Ina i agree sick of statistic driven economic drivel written by people who know nothing about what they're writing.
The majority of people on this website are hobby farmers/smallholders producing meat for their own & family needs so i don't see what relavance they are to a company like the one you work for unless its a feed merchant/producer surely you should be asking these questions to the commercial boys on sites like the farmers weekly/guardian.
The biggest factor for the majority of us is the price of feed and this most often determines what stock we decide to keep or not. Most of us just want to know where our meat has come from, how its been treated and what its been fed.
mandy :pig:
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Ok guys, point made. I'm only trying to educate myself so I don't mess up. I understand you guys are small in comparison to the 'big boys' but I still think your opinion counts.
Anyway, if I'm just going to get the fact that I'm not qualified for the job I'm doing thrown in my face then I'll leave your forums. I'm really sorry if I've been an inconvenience.
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If you had done any research at all you would know asking pig keepers what their problems are was like a red rag to a bull, pig keepers are losing on average £18-£21 per pig they send to slaughter and any flamin report you write ain't gonna help that!
mandy :pig:
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I know it won't help, but I can at least understand why it's happening. There isn't any need to have a go, you could do one of two things - suggest I go elsewhere and leave you guys alone, or simply not reply to me. I'm not here to ruffle feathers. Some people are being helpful, and I'm very grateful and appreciative. I'm sorry I've stepped on a few toes. :(
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not everybody is losing money.
there are some succesful buisness models out there. have a search.....
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Oh FiBob you just picked the wrong time to come an asking (do we have an olive branch motif!) blinkin atrotious weather which means most of us are in crap up to the eyeballs, feed prices going thro roof, i have to deal with a badly injured pig today which hasn't helped my personal temper and xmas is a coming at a vast rate of knots..................
at that i rest the case for the defence :)
mandy :pig:
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not everybody is losing money.
there are some succesful buisness models out there. have a search.....
in general pig farmers are loosing money hand over fist, closing units down, sending in pig sows off to slaughter in large numbers, feed prices no one knows what next months bill is going to be its a nightmare.
my parents got out of pigs in the 80's when a similar pattern started whole herds were shot and units like the one next door never to have pigs again they had over 3 thousand.
a small sacle producer stands more chance of making money from selling pedigree pork but that market is limited.
times are hard and lots of breeders are loosing money but sticking it out to save their chosen breed.
on a number of occasions in the show ring commentators have asked how many of us would be out next year in these uncertain times.
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Olive branch received! And I did read about what's happened - I hope he's ok, and it's not the worst case scenario. A lot of what I've read recently has really made me think, and I don't think, to the normal average joe, we realise how hard it is for farmers in general to keep going, and just how many factors play a role in what you do.
I've gotten to the stage where, although I'd like to keep asking questions, I'd like to learn more than I need to about the farming way of life, and integrate myself a little in your community :)
I've been reading a lot today about the quality of grass and how this is affecting the quality and growth of lambs - is this the same for pigs?
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pig feed is determind on world grain prices this years harvest was poor in both quality and quantity some crop failed in america pushing world prices sky high pig feed is rising week on week whilst pork prices are flat not a good place for anyone to be atm.
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Thanks kja!!! You guys are truly wonderful for sharing your knowledge! I'm going to have to repay the favour somehow!
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pig feed is determind on world grain prices this years harvest was poor in both quality and quantity some crop failed in america pushing world prices sky high pig feed is rising week on week whilst pork prices are flat not a good place for anyone to be atm.
Just to give you an idea i paid last month £330 for a tonne of pig feed which is 40 bags, i use a bag a day so it doesn't last long. My pork prices are the same now as they were 4yrs ago even though my input costs have gone up my margins has gone from being quite healthy to barely breaking even (that what i tell OH :eyelashes: but truthfully i'm subbing my pigs bank account) i can't put prices up because i'll lose the few customers i do have. Bear in mind i am only a hobby keeper and only do my pork 2 or 3 times a year to subsidise my pig keeping. we await the Australian harvest with interest becoz if they have a bad time of it the poo will really hit the fan. :gloomy:
Mandy :pig:
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Thanks for the insight, and sharing those details, Mandy :) Everything you guys are sharing with me is really helping!
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Thanks kja!!! You guys are truly wonderful for sharing your knowledge! I'm going to have to repay the favour somehow!
just make sure you spread the word to buy british ......even better rare breed :innocent: thats why most of us keep these breeds.
our pigs dont pay for them selfs if i factor in the cost of shows with the price of feed & fuel its a expensive hobby ............thats why i keep sending OH out to work.
this year i only sent off 10 pigs to slaughter the usual would have been 30ish as people are finding it hard to pay the bills.
on the plus side i have sold some breeding pigs and all the weaners have sold .....i am keeping my fingers crossed for the spring with 3 pigs due to farrow in january i will have a few to move on.
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Yep, my feed bill (for pigs only) went up by 14.4% last month. We are foraging to try to keep bills down. We assume there will be further increases, but no one tells us in advance.
Late August 1 tonne pellets = £343
Mid Oct same bag =£387
Today same bag =£387
I am now putting the pigs back onto Sow and Weaner pellets as it is £339 a tonne this month, which is closer to what I have budgeted for this year.
The piglets will go to slaughter from the beginning of Jan to mid Feb, in batches of 2 - 3 a week.
I am pleased that our next farrowing won't be until April when foraging should be improving again. I plan to plant out some fast growing forage crops in the piglet pens ready for when they are weaned later in the spring. We will have lost some income by delaying, but at least won't be paying out non-existent cash. That and the market is pretty full of pork at the moment what with people practically giving pigs away as they can't afford to feed them
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i agree, some people are making a profit albeit small, I wouldn;t mind speaking to someone who is making money just to find out how they are doing it. It can be done thats for sure. I find it so sad so many pig people are giving up.
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iI find it so sad so many pig people are giving up.
It is very sad and i think that not only have high ever escalating feed prices contributed but our shocking weather, you need to have a plan B for it and an awful lot of people just don't have the means/facilities for that. My numbers over this winter are certainly down and both feed and facilities are factors.
Mandy :pig:
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Feed costs are very worrying that's for sure. It'd be interesting to hear how pig keeping as a business fits in with people's smallholding activity as a whole. For example we keep poultry as well as pigs and there are times that the humble chickens are paying the bills and the pigs are subsidised by this income. Not many smallholders rely on just one income stream and it's swings and roundabouts with different things bringing the cash in at different times.
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FiBoB - You should be monitoring the NPA website, and getting the BPEX and EBLEX updates, as all these will help you understand issues.
http://www.npa-uk.org.uk/Pages/LionsDen.html (http://www.npa-uk.org.uk/Pages/LionsDen.html)
http://www.bpex.org/news/BPEX-weekly/ (http://www.bpex.org/news/BPEX-weekly/)
http://www.eblex.org.uk/news/ (http://www.eblex.org.uk/news/) - with sihn up to newsletter on right
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Thanks for the links! I keep up to date with BPEX and EBLEX but not the other one, so thank you :) You guys have been such a help, I understand the area a little better now, and will work hard to continue adding to the wealth of knowledge you have all already provided! :)
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As pointed out above, feed prices vary, the reason: the bulk of it is grain and therefore futures.
There are varying items that effect grain prices, fuel for example not only to haul but also as a future, if the risk increases in the supply of fuel from say Saudi then some investment houses will try to limit the risk by switching to an item more stable.... sometimes that is grain. This will of course push up the cost of grain. Other items that effect cost of grain are world markets; Russia requires grain to feed the masses if it's own harvests failed plus America stopped supplying maybe due to it's own failing harvest, (this would have been the reason it came over the border for WW3) then Russia would look to the world market to buy it's grain. In the last few years Australia and America have had serious crop failures in some regions. Also another factor is our own HMRC, for farmers that do well these guys turn up with briefcases and smack you around the chops with a Bill, now you never know if that crop in the field is going to do very well so instead of selling all the grain in your own sheds you hold back and at least wait until after April before you sell .. again keeping prices possibly artificially high.
But then you guys with your economics and farming degrees know all this.. me I just keep ploughing the fields shouting at dog walkers who think right to roam is across the middle of a field and watching the annual change of bank manager with brighter and shinyer car keep turning up ::)