The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: deepinthewoods on November 21, 2012, 10:21:05 pm
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thank god. in gaza. im not pro gaza or anti israel, but i hate bullying.
the strip is 25miles by 6miles wide with 1.4million people living within a wall. thats a population density of 10 000/ sq mile. half of them are children under the age of 16.
all the food and medicine supplys going in are controlled by israel. so far, to date, israel has broken 65 un resolutions. iraq broke 2....
if you dont have an opinion on this situation then maybe you should.
the situation has now changed since the arab spring, the internet and social media in particular have had a major effect on the process towards this ceasefire. governments have much more trouble telling lies, propaganda is more easily analysed, and disproved on both sides.
whilst it might spoil your tea , seeing pictures of broken children, it remains beholden upon every one whilst you are still able, to do what little you can to try and help people such as the palestinians living within what is not much more than an outdoor prison camp.
hopefully, some children will sleep safer tonight.
i know i will. :thumbsup:
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If this link works take a look at the map to see how much land has been taken off Lebanon to be either given to or taken by Israel
http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=tablet-gws&hl=en&q=israel+map+2012&oq=israel+map+&gs_l=tablet-gws.1.0.0l3.58166.62697.2.64778.11.8.0.3.3.0.347.1330.0j7j0j1.8.0.les%3B..0.0...1ac.1.qnZ8X3T7mXw&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=4bf6202523290014&bpcl=38897761&biw==672&biv=i (http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=tablet-gws&hl=en&q=israel+map+2012&oq=israel+map+&gs_l=tablet-gws.1.0.0l3.58166.62697.2.64778.11.8.0.3.3.0.347.1330.0j7j0j1.8.0.les%3B..0.0...1ac.1.qnZ8X3T7mXw&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=4bf6202523290014&bpcl=38897761&biw==672&biv=i)|2;d|-xIsUitNOAfFCM:
Also if you review the names of the US Government officials this may shed some light on how things have been allowed to develop to this stage.
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m8, i know. not sure wether to talk it out here tho. i appreciate how politically charged this could be, and the last thing i want to do is offend.
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I think Israel should hang it's head in shame. Of all races and religions they should know what it is like to be persecuted.
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That's exactly how I feel BB.
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me too. i was talking to a person in gaza throught the bombing. her strngth blew me away, i offored to send money but she refused so i donated to sos childrens villages.
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I am so engrossed in my own shallow world I had no idea how bad things are/were until you highlighted the problem. Religion is not about killing innocent people surely? :(
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While NEVER condoning the slaughter of children and innocents anywhere and accepting that Israel's response always seems somewhat disproportionate, it's awfully complicated and I don't claim to understand it.
My understanding is that after WW2, the Jews were promised a homeland by the Allies and this was to be where Israel is, more or less (well, much less actually). I don't know what deals were done - but it seems very likely that other folk were displaced to accommodate this homeland. Most Arab countries do not recognise Israel's right to exist and are committed to destroying it. Now, if I was an Israeli Jew, that would make me a bit nervous.
I saw a map on FB (and I'm assuming that it is accurate) that shows how the boundaries between Israel and Palestine have been eroded since 1947. It's quite shocking. And the former Allies just seem to stand by and let it happen - as DITW notes about the broken UN resolutions. Is this still guilt about the Holocaust? Is it about money? Political infuence? If any other state behaved in this way, well, we can guess what would happen.
I heard some Palestinians on the radio this morning hailing the recent conflict as a great victory. I saw a quote by Golda Meir the other day which said very roughly "Until the Palestinians love their children more than they hate us, there can be no peace".
I'm afraid until Arab nations recognise Israel's right to exist, this ain't going away. :gloomy:
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That's the map Moleskins was meaning Rosemary, if you click his link it's teh third one along I think. It is frightening to see the mount of reduction in land.
I don't watch TV much but when working on my PC I glance at news bulletins from time to time so I keep in touch. I am horrified that so culled civilised people can destroy life so wantonly. I have never been to any of the Arab countries, Palestine or Israel and I no longer ever wish to.
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the victory' they were reffering to is that israel finally agreed to allow movement across the borders , to allow food and medicine in.
most of the un resolutions have been about illegal land grab settlements. if it wasnt for international pressure, and people like 'anonymous' taking down israels internet structure, they hacked over 10 000 israely websites... i reckon they would have wiped gaza out.
my friend has just told me they are still flying drones overhead, all night, still no sleeep. theyve stopped firing now, just flying over constantly.
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As Berkshireboy says - Of all races and religions they should know what it is like to be persecuted. Rpsemary makes some good points too.
The times on Monday posted the number of rockets that have landed in Israel over the last year and the steady increase in recent months.
Gaza has a border with Egypt but is reliant on Israel for trade and gifts of food and medical supplies. I am unsure what supplies cross into Gaza from Egypt. Rockets fell on the power station in Israel that is dedictaed to supply Gaza.
This question of Israel's right to defend itself and Hamas fanatical determination for the destruction of Israel and the killing of all jews is essential to any debate here. Essentially you have to say that one or other is wrong then make a stand against this.
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It bothers me how unequal the battle is and how, if you live in Gaza, you really can't get away from it, there are no safe places.
Of course the creation of Israel was done in a way that was almost guaranteed to cause conflict. I wonder how we'd feel if part of Britain was hived off to create another country and we were either moved out of where we'd grown up or occupied by a foreign power.
And of course the Jews needed somewhere where they were in control and were safe.
I don't dispute that there have been awfulnesses on both sides. But it is Israel that has modern weapons on a grand scale, that gets involved in controversial 'settler' stuff in Gaza territory and so on.
Any other country operating as Israel is would have incurred the wrath of the West. As it is, it seems that Israel is supported, especially in the US, or we say 'one is as bad as the other'.
I don't think so, I think we are letting our fear of being anti-Semitic, and goodness knows we need to watch that, mean that we don't challenge Israel's bullying and aggressive behaviour, it seems to me it goes way beyond self-defence.
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I guess America may be involved - backing Israel?
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90% of israely jews arent semetic genetically. theyre converted khazars.
gazan rockets are like bits of scrapmetal theyre hardly lethal. how many israelis died from all these rockets. 3?. its like me throwing a stone at your window and you blowing my head off with a tank.
i dont think the terms 'israel' and 'jewish' should even be related really.
if they are, then they learned from hitler. not the right lesson but how to concentrate a minority, and torture it.
the map above ays it all.
please take a moment to just imagine what it would be like to live at a population density of 9888/ sq mile. hitler would be proud.
as far as american involvement. look who backed obamas presidency, (and mitts campaign) all roads lead to rothschild. and they werent even jews. they were originally from georgia.
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I think the people of Israel and all those with the right to live there are quite used to anti-sematic behaviour so no worries there Jackay. ;D But I do think that this does cloud peoples thoughts on the problems in the same way as people would dare not say that the Palestinians are a fanatical and uncontrolable people who can not see reason.
Just to let you know - If you live in Israel you can not get away from "it" either. There have been check points in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem for years and simple bag search reminds people of the daily threat from those intent to kill.
Yes - Israel is compariteveley wealthy and has many friends overseas - imagine if all the arab world did support Hamas. The fact that many arab countries and ruling families do not support Hamas is quite telling. Imagine the fire power Hamas would have if they had the financial baking of all the Arab world.
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I meant you couldn't get away from the shelling and the drones. I don't think bag checks are in the same league. Gaza is only 25 miles long and 3-7 miles wide, so the whole territory is 'border'.
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the biggest open air prison in the world (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/episodes/gaza-e-r/map-in-and-out-of-gaza/1226/)
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/jaykayg/9adfab708ab6b8844bb0f26e7361fefb.jpg)
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if i FARTED in a population density of 10000 to 1 sq mile 1000's would know about it!!
particularly if id eaten some sprouts....
look at the maps, do the research. israel as a nation has BLOOD on its hands, it has followed the nazi model.
if you can do something about it. do it! write your mp, donate, protest. whatever, just do it now, whilst the irons still hot.
israel needs to know that the world will not allow it anymore. I wont, my friends wont, my daughter wont. the world has changed.
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the map again.
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Yes it seems that no one will offer the Palestinians more land.
So Dave - " then they learned from hitler. not the right lesson"
What exactly was the "right" lesson to be learnt from Hitler?
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what was the right lesson to be learnt from hitler????
how about that putting a minority in a concentration camp and killing hem isnt a good thing??
or that starving a minority and refusing them medical aid, isnt a good thing??
bombing kids? isnt a good thing.
hows that for starters??
offer the palestinians more land??? israel has STOLEN their land with violence, war and bombs.
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The changes after the UN partition are alarming.
It was quite even then, I didn't realise how much land Israel had taken since and how uneven it had become.
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that is what has changed, through the internet.
now everyone knows the truth.
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Dave you have no idea how Israel has supported Gaza and to say that they have put a population in a concentration camp is unforgiveable.Israel monitors its borders and that of Gaza because of the persistent threat and thousands of rockets sent over its border ( the anti-rocket shield has prevented many deaths). No other country in the middle east and no other European or "super power" supports Gaza like Israel has.
http://www.jdl-uk.org/2012/11/israel-giving-free-electricity-to-gaza.html (http://www.jdl-uk.org/2012/11/israel-giving-free-electricity-to-gaza.html)
Israel is acuteley aware of international opinion and has had internal battles to supress right wingers who want to take revenge on Hamas. The general public there hate what is going on in Gaza and would rather their youngsters not be called up to the IDF.
Tell me what food or medical aid crosses the Gaza Egyptian border please. If you know this then you will also be able to identify what crossses from Israel to Gaza.
Why on earth you would think that the public of Israel are any different in opinion to others who want peace escapes me. Have a look at TV coverage from Gaza of funerals or the announcement of a ceasefire and you will see their reaction - guns fired into the air and chants of death to Isreal.
Anyway - I think that we will choose to differ in opinion on this and it may be best not to air our views on this forum.
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the map speaks for itself.
i agree that the general population of israel does not support their own government, there are plenty of objectors.
the fact remains that illegal land grabs are happening all the time. no wonder the people fight back, i would too.
when israel answers for its crimes against 65 un resolutions there may well be a chance for peace. that is all i wish for. as i stated initially i am not anti israel. but i cant stand bullys.
ill let it go here too, i never intended to offend, just air the dispute, to allow a bullied minority a bit of a voice, so others were aware of the facts. thanks. if you want me to lock this let me know.
''If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out that's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made''