The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Cattle => Topic started by: Big Benny Shep on November 18, 2012, 03:26:19 pm
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im thinking of getting some cows but i know little about them.
Ive got about 80 breeding sheep so ive got pens, trailers, hay and suchlike.
ive been looking at dexters as i would like something small with preferably no horns
was thinking of getting 2 breeding from them and eating the offspring :hungry: [size=78%] (or selling them)[/size]
any help would bre really really appreciated ;D
Thanks!
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I wouldn't rely on sheep equipment for cattle personally. Just last Monday I watched a friends dexter jump a 5 bar gate after being brought in to be tested, she obviously didn't think we were letting her back out to the silage quick enough ;D
Sheep hurdles will be destroyed in no time!
I will admit though I have owned precisely 0 cows myself and can only go by my mates mental beasts :thumbsup:
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If breeding be careful about genetics as short legged type of Dexters have some genetic issues you will want to check out, this doesnt affect long legged Dexters (who are still pretty short!). However they make excellent eating. Check temperament too as this varies within the breed and the wild ones are pretty wild, but most are fine. If you got a cow with steer at foot that is in calf you would have yourself a nice little setup - boy can go off for meat but Mum would still have the new calf for company and you could share milk with the calf if you wanted to milk Mum.
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Sheep and 2 Dexters or similar sounds like a good plan. :thumbsup: Donna's right that sheep gear isn't suitable for handling cattle, but if you make sure you get nice quiet beasts and use a sensible bull / breed for the calves, and have stables, byres or other suitable buildings, you can probably rig things up to cope with them. I can't think I would ever need to use the cattle crush with my Jersey cow, for instance, but I can tie her up in a stall if I need to, and I've halter-trained her offspring.
Rosemary and Dan have 2 Shetland cows on a similar basis to that you describe - I was about to point you at their Cattle section only to find it's one they haven't written yet. Ohhhhh Rooooossseeemmmmaaaarrryyyyy :wave: You will find interesting articles in the Cattle section of their Diary however. Their story starts here (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/diary/thoughts-of-cows/)
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It's on the list, Sally ;D
Yep, we have two Shetlands, doing much as you plan - bull calves for beef, heifers for breeding. They are a dual purpose breed but most folk keep them as sucklers. They will produce calves to a Continental bull (although probably not wise to try this for a first calf from a heifer) but if you go for Shetlands, I would urge you to breed pure as the breed is SO endangered.
Ours are halter trained, so we just have a gate in the byre, hinged to the wall - we tie them up beside the gate and swing it over to pin their bums.
Shetlands are horned but of course can be dehorned, but I think they look better with - and if a cattle beast wants to hurt you, the horns issue isn't going to come into it.
The beef is absolutely tremendous, they are docile, small, live on fresh air, easy calving, no genetic issues (other than in bull choice if breeding, because of the small size of the gene pool, but there's good advice available). The breeder we bought our beef from this year had 168kg of beef from his 28 month old bullock.
We graze the sheep behind the cattle, rotating round five paddocks - this year we had zero worms in the faecal egg counts, so there must be something in this multi-species, rotational grazing management.
If you are interested in Shetlands, have a look on the Shetland Cattle Breeders Association website www.shetlandcattle.org.uk (http://www.shetlandcattle.org.uk) - lots of good information and a list of cattle for sale.
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thanks for the quick replies!
getting a cow with steer at foot and being in calf sounds like a great idea :thumbsup:
both shetlands and dexters are sounding good, i have a building that could be used for handling but not big enough for overwintering but from what i can tell both breeds seem able to winter outside, how true is this?
:excited: getting excited now :excited:
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both breeds seem able to winter outside, how true is this?
We have Shetlands - a small herd of 15 beasts. The cattle have open access to their shed all year round and usually prefer to stay outside. They do use the shed in the summer - just to get out of the 'searing' heat we get here in Moray...They go inside when the snow lays - more to get to the hay than to get out of the weather, and usually troop outside again once they've had their fill of hay. We have been known to shut them indoors - but that is when we have our calvings and we have thick snow at the same time (March/April) and we don't want to risk the young calves in the cold & wet.
We don't find the horns to be a problem - but you do have to be wary of being trodden, barged or possibly kicked - the latter by the calves who get excited over everything & nothing.
Our adults are mostly docile and will come to a whistle, especially if they know there's a few carrots on offer though you do have to be careful not to get squashed in the rush.
Great beasts, fairly easy to look after, will thrive on not very good grazing and produce very nice beef. It was our beef mentioned by Rosemary. Our steer was fed only on grass and our hay (with the odd carrot) - he finished well on that without the need for concentrates.
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I should add to the above posts that even tho Shetlands are endangered, that doesnt mean (un like with rare dog breeds etc) that you have to 'pay through the nose' to buy them, they are very good value IMO to buy.
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have seen a dexter with calf very close so gonna email the guy and have a looky see
Thanks every one!
Ill let you know how it goes, any further advice appreciated, how much harder are they too look after than sheep? surely nothing can die more than sheep?
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even sheep only die once :roflanim: :roflanim:
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Sounds like you are only looking at a single cow? I know she'll have her calf for company, but it really isn't the same. Cattle need other cattle of their own age / stage for company; they're herd animals. If you can find another heifer or cow to go with her, she'll be much happier and healthier - and the calves, too, really appreciate other calves to play with.
Hmmmm... how do cattle differ from sheep to look after....
This list won't be exhaustive but here are some things that came straight to mind:
- cattle need way more copper than sheep - take care you don't poison the sheep with the cattle's cake / licks
- the worming regime differs; worm calves as they are turned out for their first summer, using a bolus works well
- cattle invoke TB testing (don't forget to inform Animal Health when you start keeping cattle; they'll arrange your first TB test)
- very young calves don't tolerate being rained on very well - best get them under well-ventilated cover if you can, and certainly keep a very close watch for signs of pneumonia
- calving a cow is a much bigger job than lambing a ewe! :D Get a calving aid and some calving ropes, and make sure you have someone nearby on call to come and give you a hand when you've a cow near calving
- a cow is more likely to be an aggressively protective mother than a ewe is - and a far more dangerous assailant if she is
- calves can need assistance / guidance to get their first drink just like lambs do - and the mother is nowhere near as easy to restrain if you do need to help. (I'm glad you're getting an experienced cow, at least she'll want the calf to suckle.) Get some Life-Aid in stock near to calving, get a shot of that into the calf if it looks like not getting its first bellyful of milk within the first few hours
- best to keep dogs away from newly-calved cows - not least because the cow will go for the dog with evil intent, and the dog has probably just run behind your legs for protection
- very young calves are prone to scours, to pneumonia and to dying at least as much as young lambs are
- cattle are prone to two types of mastitis; one's a killer and the other can kill too; a cow can come down with E-coli mastitis (that's the most lethal type) even before she calves
- cattle kick. And if you haven't dealt with them before, the speed with, and the angles at which they can kick can surprise you! :o
- cattle will mess on with - and swallow if they can - any strings or bits of plastic or indeed anything at all that is tied to a fence or gate or just left lying around. Although they have a stomach for filtering out foreign bodies, they can die of ingesting foreign matter they can't digest. I've seen one of our bullocks trying to swallow a 330ml Lucozade bottle discarded by a tourist - he nearly managed it, too.
- cattle can jump fences and gates like steeplechasers
- cattle can undo strings round gates like you wouldn't believe
- cattle trash fences and gates like you wouldn't believe
They do have their good points too! :D
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I'm going to add to Sally's list with a few of my own inexperienced observations.....
Cattle poach gateways like nothing you can imagine when you have only been used to dainty sheep feet.
Cattle have the amazing ability to swat you in the face with a shitty tail if they think it would be amusing (ask me how I know)
They can do the above, plus tread on your toes PLUS pee in your wellies in the same instant, ask me how I know this one too :gloomy: :roflanim:
They are more dribbly than a mastiff :o
They can be the most obstinate, stubborn and calculating of beasts (make a goat look like an angel) OR can be you very best friend in the world.
In icy weather a full grown Simmental X Hereford cow can slip and fold up neatly into a water trough :o then require 6 people and a JCB telehandler to extract her. She's my favourite cow ever :love: .
I cannot wait to be able to have my own :cow: :cow: :cow:
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OR can be you very best friend in the world.
Seconded, Betty is the greatest listening post in the world!
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OR can be you very best friend in the world.
Seconded, Betty is the greatest listening post in the world!
:love: :love:
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wowzers what a list! sounds fairly straight forward and common sense tho (mainly :relief: )
Sounds like good fun aswell! :excited:
Thanks for all the knowledge, ill probably need it ;D
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At last! im hopefully going to see 3 dexters this weekend :excited: :excited: :excited:
I am soo freaking excited!
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:thumbsup:
:fc:
:excited:
:love: :cow:
:)
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Any advice from you coo gurus for when i go look at them? :cow:
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:excited: Have fun ..... you can't beat cows (well I guess you can but they may fight back!). Worked with (other peoples) cattle most of my life and hadn't realised how much I missed them over the last 6 cow free years. Now I have twin Dexter heifers and a Shetland cow and un related heifer calf of my own :excited: :excited:. The Dexters are more or less halter trained (thanks Anne) and lovely.
The Shetland cow has moved into boss position and shoves the others about so it was only yesterday (after them being here about 5 weeks I tried to get the Shetland calf (who is the size of the year old Dexters) into close quarters to she how she reacted............ what a darling ............. I walked her into a small pen and proceeded to stroke her all over ... she didn't even flinch once. :hug:.....
So my advice find some which have been well handled (probably by a female owner?) but still be wary of all those things listed above............ as for Dexter or Shetland ..... have BOTH!! :eyelashes:
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Any advice from you coo gurus for when i go look at them? :cow:
Not a guru, but I have a few tips.
Of course you want them healthy - they should be inquisitive, not breathing hard, not rasping when they breathe. Wet noses but not dripping phlegm. The usual stuff, lol.
Behaviour-wise, they should be inquisitive but respectful. They should move away from a direct approach, should not turn and drop their head towards you, much less shake their heads. They should not lift a back leg as if to kick. If you stand quietly in an unthreatening posture they should approach and try to sniff and maybe lick. They should not attempt to butt.
If you can touch them, don't touch their faces as this can be seen as an invitation to play head butting games ::). Most cattle love to be scratched on the back, base of tail, behind shoulders. Maybe behind ears but not all of them like this.
I'd ask to see them fed some cake, or even to feed it to them myself - you'll soon see how respectful they are, some will be knocking you over as you dish it out :o. If they can't settle to eat while you're there they maybe are a bit wild, so see if you can get them to settle.
Best of luck!
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Thanks, ill bear in mind all those points, im goin to see 2 different people with dexters for sale tomorrow :excited: :excited: :excited: :excited: :cow: :cow: :excited: :excited: :excited: :excited:
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Went to see some lovely dexters last night, they all came running in for food, very nicely tempered, you could stroke them all while they fed including the bull. So looks like I'll be getting 2 with calves at foot on Sunday, hopefully they will be in calf as well as they are running with the bull now ;D which is exactly what I wanted. Will post photos on Sunday. Thanks for all the help guys!
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:excited: lovely ..... very jealous of the pregnant bit .... i still waiting to get to that. But just love cows
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When buying stock the first thing I always think about is health status----and having bought a few cattle before I would recommend that before you buy anything you demand blood tests for BVD/lepto/Johnes/IBR ---the cost is very little and any of these diseases can devastate a herd (future or present)
No one has mentioned TB yet---if I was going to get back into cattle that would be high up on ,my worries---
What's the TB status of farms around you?
What's the TB status of the farm you will source stock from?
What's the TB risk around you?
Are you prepared for the event of getting a positive TB test = compulsory slaughter of cattle
having said all that I love cattle and would trade in my sheep for some nice cows any day of the week--I just can't see any way of making a living at it
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Cheers Tim, I recently had a random visit from animal health and asked her about tb and suchlike issues with getting cows and she gave me some info that I will re read, I'd forgotten about tb in all the excitement. I'm well prepared if they do have to be slaughtered in the future, if I assume everything will die in the most awkward and expensive way possible anything better is a blessing ;D
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The key thing to make sure of is that the farm you are buying from is of the same or better TB testing status as your own area. You can look up TB status by CPH (first two parts - county and parish) here (http://ahvla.defra.gov.uk/tb-test/index.asp)
Best is TB4 - TB tested every 4 years, is TB free to all intents and purposes. TB3, 2, and 1 are increasingly risky - tested more frequently and with cases in the parish in increasingly recent times.
If buying through an auction you get a display that tells you the TB status of the farm and also the TB status of the animal (which may be less good if it's other than homebred - for instance a TB4 farm may sell a TB3 cow, because she came from a TB3 farm.)
We're TB 4 here and won't buy anything (including sheep) from anywhere that's other than TB free (ie., Scotland) or TB4.
We were shocked and disappointed recently to see a man we'd bought a tup from buying a TB1 calf at an auction. :o We will not be buying from him again. >:(