The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Fowgill Farm on November 14, 2012, 12:31:00 pm
-
Just read this :'(
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2232698/Thieves-butcher-pregnant-sheep-alive-Cheadle-Hulme-farm-raids.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2232698/Thieves-butcher-pregnant-sheep-alive-Cheadle-Hulme-farm-raids.html)
There are some s**t people out there. :rant: >:( I know what i'd do to them if i caught them near my stock!
mandy :pig:
-
Good grief, thats unbelieveable. How can people do this.
I think if I lived in that area I would be spending the night in the field with my sheep.
-
This is horrific and the people that have done it must be sick in the head. I really cannot understand how anyone can do such a thing and inflict such pain on a poor unsuspecting animal. If they wanted the meat why didn't they at least kill the animal humanely and then take what they wanted??? It makes me SO ANGRY!!!!
If I had my way I'd want to see the perpetrators have the same thing inflicted on them.
I wonder if the attacks have anything to do with Diwali? If so let's hope that these barbaric attacks have now come to an end.
-
Oh that's horrendous, how can people do things like that. It must be horrific to see that in the morning those poor animals and people
-
:tired: that is revolting. Well, any eye for an eye ( or a leg for a leg if I had my way )
-
I'm speechless!!
-
:rant: What kind of person could do that? It's made me feel physically sick and too right Bionic, think I'd have to camp out with mine for a while.
-
What the f---k is going on in this world what are these people capable of I actually thought I was dreaming when I read this article then i realised it was a nightmare. I commented before on this forum about a pig headed person my neighbour who thought it was ok and I was making a fuss about her un trained dogs baiting and chasing my sheep then killing our much loved pet cat although I can't prove it. So to hear about these sick people than can butcher and leave to die sheep should not realy surprise me
-
The article is very distressing to read.
However, it does not ring true to me.
If the crooks are ‘scrupulous’ enough to take only younger sheep as ‘otherwise it would be classed as mutton’, and are such skilled butchers, then they would know that one sure way to render meat unpalatable is to subject the living animal to stress before or during butchering.
Coupled with the physical difficulty of safely and cleanly dismembering a sheep, using butchers’ knives, while the sheep is alive and kicking for its life - utter nonsense IMO.
So at the very least, in my view, the animals must have been stunned and unconscious when the butchery took place.
It is still an horrendous story.
I wish the scaremongering sensationalist press would report only the facts. I feel that I have no reliable source of information, as I know that any story I read, in any medium (this particular outlet is one of the worst IMHO but there isn’t a one I trust), is embellished and gorified for the benefit of the sales figures.
-
I wish the scaremongering sensationalist press would report only the facts. I feel that I have no reliable source of information, as I know that any story I read, in any medium (this particular outlet is one of the worst IMHO but there isn’t a one I trust), is embellished and gorified for the benefit of the sales figures.
Its the Daily Mail - proud purveyor of hysterical nonsense since 1896.
It doesn't ring true to me either and its depressing how it only took three posts on here for someone to point the finger at 'the ethnics'....
-
"It doesn't ring true to me either and its depressing how it only took three posts on here for someone to point the finger at 'the ethnics'...."
Some fingers do point in the right direction. It was the first thing that crossed my mind when I read this thread, especially after reading the following on the BFF.
http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=76632 (http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=76632)
-
I wonder if the attacks have anything to do with Diwali
Why on earth should they? Diwali is a Hindu and Sikh festival, the festival of lights.
Muslims and Jews slaughter animals without stunning. But that doesn't mean they operate like this.
What these people have done is quite bad enough. We don't need to add to it by slandering people with no evidence.
-
None of this surprises me. But if I told you why I would be banned from this site but I will give you a clue. The same thing has been happening to swans for example, their caucus left on river banks. Fishing wire with hooks strapped across our canal banks to trap ducks. This kind of butchery and poaching all coincides with the opening of european barriers from the old eastern block countries. Funny how when one has travelled to some of these places, wild life is so scarce ?
Like my Chinese mate said today whilst we ate a bit of best tripe. "The chinese will eat anything with wings or legs, just so long as it ain't the furniture".
Different cultures have some very different views on food & animals. Unfortunately too many Brits cannot get their heads around it.
-
If they were skilled butchers, they would have killed them first. If it was for Halal or Kosher it would have had its throat slit first and drained of blood or they wont eat it. Hindus dont usually eat meat and if they do it has to have been devoid of any emotional or physical stress. Most Indians refrain form eating meat in Diwali. I cant believe the finger of suspicion always points towards entire vultures when the chances are it was some sick kids mucking about.
-
"It doesn't ring true to me either and its depressing how it only took three posts on here for someone to point the finger at 'the ethnics'...."
Some fingers do point in the right direction. It was the first thing that crossed my mind when I read this thread, especially after reading the following on the BFF.
http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=76632 (http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=76632)
And on the same forum, most of the posters think this story is misreported at the very least.
Randomly pointing fingers based on ones own prejudices isn't going to help. Its like all the halal slaughter threads I have ever read. Most halal slaughter is pre-stun, and some kosher isn't, but people would rather bash muslims and know better than to air anti-jewish sentiment because we all know where that leads, don't we?
-
Fishing wire with hooks strapped across our canal banks to trap ducks.
Different cultures have some very different views on food & animals. Unfortunately too many Brits cannot get their heads around it.
I hate to dissapoint you - but British kids did that to ducks when I was a nipper, sadly. And I don't think its like the Chinese to waste the whole rest of a carcase, oe the Eastern Eurpoeans for that matter - its some effing weirdo group or another, I reckon or kids.
And they do, but as others have said, his is not part of the Muslim, Jewish, Sikh or Hindu cultures, yet people point the finger at them first because...... They probably read the Daily Mail too much. A paper, which, lest we forget, in the late 30s thought Adolf was a jolly sensible chap and that Mosley would 'sort Britain out'....
-
I posted it more to warn people to be on the look out for these sadistic bar stewards and to keep a close eye on their stock. It was not to point the blame at any particular culture or section of society. Its up to the police to catch the culprits and prosecute with all haste and for them to be sentenced to the maximum penalty whoever they are.
Mandy :pig:
-
iff i found this being done i would shoot them no problem to the legs.
-
Yes, thanks FF. :thumbsup: We did wonder when we discussed this last night, why they wouldn't have slit their throats first ...... to make the job easier if nothing else but whatever the details it's just abhorrent.
-
Whoah guys, I certainly wasn't pointing the finger, I was just trying to fathom out a 'potential' motive for a very sick act.
As is pretty obvious now, I'm no expert on different religions and their eating preferences (note to self - do my homework before posting in future...) and clearly I got it wrong. I was obviously mistaken thinking that halal meat might have been on the menu for Diwali (and didn't click about throats not being slit either) and thought some chancers may have wanted to make a quick buck at this time of year.
So I plead 'Guilty' for being so dumb but 'Not Guilty' for the accusation of pointing the finger at the ethnic minorities as this certainly was NOT my intention.
So apologies everyone for causing an uproar and unintentionally distracting this thread from the horror of such a malicious act.
Let's hope they catch the perpetrators before any further suffering is caused.
-
I'm impressed Haylo-P :thumbsup:
Yes, lets hope they catch the b£&@%#€$
-
Thought Diwali was Hindu, not Muslim ?
Still, there's odd buggers everywhere !Interestingly some abbatoirs that do Halal meat stun first anyway. The important thing is that they are blessed and are alive when their throats are cut, which stunned animals are. Our friend used to play them a tape with a blessing from the local priest. Most supermarket meat available is actually Halal as it makes it acceptable for a wider customer base.
-
I don't buy or read news papers, just use them to scrunch up to light my coal fire. Neither do I walk around wearing a pair of rose tinted glasses. I live in the multi-cultural connorbation once known as the West Riding of Yorkshire, run by councils whos' only qualification is that of Liberal Elite Champagne Socialist. Tried working for our council once, I lasted a month . Always the same old Unison Mantra....Daily Mail, Hitler ... blah blah blah Guardian nonsense. :excited:
I work and trade with most popular cultures on a daily basis and we are all expected to pay the Gold Plated Pensions of the Council and all share similar views based on our experiences. Disappointed , me , seen too much of the third world and when the worse elements tip up here I am never surprised. You want to see them fight over water or boiled sweets.
Unfortunately the only safe farm animals will be the ones inside a building. :( :( :(
-
it do sent matter or is to blame the point is this is a bad thing to do .people are skint no money so lots of bad things are happening iv seen a groups of lads killing a cat video of cu ting its head of swans shot with Cross BO it makes me sick that people can do this .There is some think wrong with society to day .The UK border agency immigration are letting all sorts of people in the UK and bad things are happening.
-
Interestingly some abbatoirs that do Halal meat stun first anyway.
I think that legally, all abbatoirs stun first anyway.
-
keeping turkeys for christmas take a look at this http://www.butterballabuse.com/ (http://www.butterballabuse.com/)
-
I think that legally, all abbatoirs stun first anyway
Not so.
the association of non-stun abbaboirs (http://behalal.org/home/uk-the-association-of-non-stun-abattoirs/)
What I hate about our country is that we don't stick to our principles. If we believe that animals should be stunned before being killed, then we do, regardless or whether or not some people want not to do that. We just seem to roll over and give in :P
-
As far as I was aware, most halal slaughter was pre-stun, because most muslims don't mind pre-stun (they usually follow the guidance/veiwpoint of their imam, and this varies - I did halal fish when I was working at a trout farm), but kosher meat cannot be pre-stunned, therefore some abbatoirs must be non-stun.
-
therefore some abbatoirs must be non-stun
Well - there some people who want there to be non-stun abattoirs.
But if there are, that doesn't meet my needs - which is to know that animals are not having their throats slit, fully sentient.
Why does an outdated set of cultural practices, attached to a religion, take precedence over that?
Why is it my values that have to be compromised, not those of certain Muslims and Jews?
Incidentally, I'm as woolly liberal as you get, so I'm sort of uncomfortable hearing myself saying this. But I think the fact that we bend over backwards to accommodate all creeds, means we don't stand up for the things we think are right.
-
:thumbsup: I'm totally with you on that Jaykay. Makes a nonsense out of the law.
I am all for people following their beliefs/keeping cultures alive, provided it is within the laws of our land. If it is necessary for animal welfare then it is necessary ..... full stop. How can you pick and choose?
-
That's it, that's what I meant :thumbsup:
-
therefore some abbatoirs must be non-stun
Well - there some people who want there to be non-stun abattoirs.
But if there are, that doesn't meet my needs - which is to know that animals are not having their throats slit, fully sentient.
Why does an outdated set of cultural practices, attached to a religion, take precedence over that?
Why is it my values that have to be compromised, not those of certain Muslims and Jews?
Incidentally, I'm as woolly liberal as you get, so I'm sort of uncomfortable hearing myself saying this. But I think the fact that we bend over backwards to accommodate all creeds, means we don't stand up for the things we think are right.
My (slightly between-the-lines) point is that most Muslims are happy with pre-stun wheras all Kosher Jews are not, and yet, oddly you tend not to hear people moaning about the number of Jews in our country or who 'are being let in', not even our erstwhile friends Griffin et al. I guess, because parallels to certain events in certain other european countries in the late 1930s would be easy for most people to make.
Which is why I find it pretty depressing that when events like this take place, people are quick to blame the nearest immigrant group that they feel uneasy about - when the reality is that some people wholly unrepresentetive of the ethnic group/religion/sexual orientation/hair coulor/shoe size/whatever other arbitary category you choose to put them in carried this out.
As for my own views on non-stun slaughter, I remain undecided a)because I have never witnessed one and b) because as far as I remember, when one looks at graphs of the heart activity of the animal involved, when it is stunned, the heart rate goes crazy for a second or two, and presumably the animal is pretty stressed at this point, and when its throat is cut (and it is done with a very sharp knife) the heart rate never spikes, it just drops as the animal bleeds out, and if it felt the stroke, you would expect it to. I think worse things happen in terms of welfare on shoots, when a bird is pricked for example and I seem very okay with shooting.
-
I agree about the finger-pointing bit and that's why I feel uncomfortable with my part in the conversation. But living with that...
Your heart-rate stuff is interesting. I can well imagine the moment of stunning is very stressful. I find it hard to imagine that an animal wouldn't feel pain from a knife. And that the pain would last longer.
Ok, so then, as well as my lack of imagination, if the scientific evidence is that stunning is more stressful than just slitting their throats, why is the law - as applied to most people in the country - for stunning?
As for shooting - I don't have a problem with it, but I would need to know I was good before I would do it and how would I get that way without doing it.....
-
Your heart-rate stuff is interesting. I can well imagine the moment of stunning is very stressful. I find it hard to imagine that an animal wouldn't feel pain from a knife. And that the pain would last longer.
Ok, so then, as well as my lack of imagination, if the scientific evidence is that stunning is more stressful than just slitting their throats, why is the law - as applied to most people in the country - for stunning?
As for shooting - I don't have a problem with it, but I would need to know I was good before I would do it and how would I get that way without doing it.....
I think the knife involved is very sharp, and when you think about it, livestock have to be quite impervious to small pains to exist, and possibly, since it doesn't buck/kick/struggle it doesn't feel it (compare to injecting a sheep with something stingy like ivermectin - some bounce around like buggery) and as the blood drains it dies quietly.
I think most people are more comfortable with stunning because a) shooting/stunning is traditional and b) the animal looks to be 'dead' the instant after it happens, it goes into massive shock, eyes close etc.
The shooting point was more that I have been involved (as a beater) with driven shoots for years and birds do get pricked by the guns, sometimes the dogs find them, sometimes they dont - I guess some may recover, the foxes get the rest.
As a slight by-the-by; I think the more you are 'involved' with death, the less it bothers you and the more you think in terms of getting the job done quickly rather than putting yourself in the place of the animal involved. I can remember feeling very sad the first time I shot a rabbit, have since slaughtered 1000s of fish electronically as part of my last job, have been involved in helping out with turkeys on various seasonal operations (so stunning with a blow to the head and bleeding out), have shot sheep that I have deemed to be terminal rather than watch them suffer. I think if I found a suffering sheep that I didn't think I could save out on the downs and I didn't have a gun, rather than stressing it by trailering it etc I would certainly consider slitting its throat there and then.
-
I believe that a very swift cut with a very sharp knife does not usually cause pain. I believe this because
- If I cut myself with a newly-sharpened knife, it doesn't hurt at the time I cut it, only later
- When our vet castrated three bullocks for us, he chose to do it without anaesthetic as he said it was more stressful and painful for the bullocks to have the anaesthetic administered and then wait until it took effect than to get cut very swiftly with a very sharp scalpel. And not one of the three showed any sign of noticing the operation occuring.
Many many years ago, I had a friend worked in Environmental Health, doing meat inspections. He had several Kosher and Muslim abbatoirs on his round. He said he wasn't upset at the Kosher slaughter, as there is a rule in Kosher slaughter that if any matter at all adheres to the knife, then the whole animal is deemed not Kosher and is waste. Therefore in the Kosher abbatoirs, the knives are extremely sharp, the process extremely quick and, as far as my friend could tell, painless.
For Halal slaughter, however, there is no such restriction and the knives were not always as sharp as you would want them to be for welfare reasons, he said. He had witnessed some horrendous scenes which I will not repeat here.
Since then, legislation was introduced to require the stunning of animals before slaughter. Until tonight I was not aware that there is a wholesale derogation of this requirement in the case of ritual slaughter in a licensed premises conducted by a licensed slaughterman/operative in the presence of a veterinary surgeon. I could not find any specifics on the training and licensing of such slaughter operatives, but am sure that it would include the minimisation of pain, suffering or awareness of the animals being slaughtered.
I have read up as much as I could find tonight on the Defra website and also a few articles on political websites and the Law Society website.
Taking a theoretical stance, I do of course agree that if we as a country believe a ritual slaughter is of a lower standard of animal welfare than a non-ritual one, then we should of course ban the non-stunning slaughtering. However, in practical terms, this would only drive the ritual slaughter underground and overseas.
Therefore, at the moment my working hypothesis is that it is preferable that animals destined for Kosher or Halal butchers should be killed in accordance with the current regulations, ie, "in a licensed premises conducted by a licensed slaughterman/operative in the presence of a veterinary surgeon" rather than the inevitable alternative were we to withdraw the derogation. The inevitable alternative being that animals destined for the Kosher or Halal butchers are slaughtered under less supervision and lower welfare standards away from the UK - quite possibly after being shipped alive from our ports to their deaths in unlicensed abbatoirs elsewhere.
On a personal level, we tend to sell by far the majority of our lambs directly to supermarket abbatoirs, or to our local butcher for whom we deliver them to the local abbatoir he and we use. After my researches tonight I am even less keen to sell our lambs through the auction ring.
The disposal of cast ewes and rams is more problemmatical. At the moment, the number of ewes who are "my sheep" as opposed to just members of the farm flock is small enough that I can state that none of my own ewes will be sold through a ring; we will take them to the abbatoir ourselves or have them slaughtered on farm. As to the rest, there is no direct sales outlet available, they will have to be sold through the auction ring. It is thinking about that has made me realise I would prefer to know that at least they would be headed for slaughter at "a licensed premises conducted by a licensed slaughterman/operative in the presence of a veterinary surgeon", rather than a boat taking them on who knows how long a journey to a possibly unregulated slaughter overseas.
We sell 97% of our cattle as stores, so cannot in any way influence their eventual destination. The same therefore applies as to cast ewes - I'd rather know they'd be killed as humanely as possible in this country than wonder if they'd end up shipped alive for ritual slaughter overseas. (BH has already been told that no Jersey bred here will ever leave the farm except to a home vetted and approved by myself - but that's because of specifically how Jersey cows are used by the industry and how Jersey meat bullocks could be treated.)
As so often, I have learned something because of TAS. Just at the moment, I rather wish I had continued in my previous state of ignorance :(
-
My son who lives in New Zealand kills his own sheep as required. I've not seen it done but he assures me that a non-stunned sheep will die within 10 seconds when it's throat is cut, with very little blood loss.