The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: freethyme on November 06, 2012, 06:39:01 pm

Title: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: freethyme on November 06, 2012, 06:39:01 pm
Evening everyone  :wave: .
Do any of you good people know a mobile slaughterman who works within the Midlands.
I am located in Solihull near to Birmingham airport.
I have both lambs  :sheep:  and pigs  :pig: each year and intested to see if anyone can do they kill and cut for me on the holding rather than being sent away.
I welcome your knowledge and experience.
Thank you and keep warm. :fc:
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: moony on November 06, 2012, 07:02:16 pm
You will be sadly disappointed I'm afraid. Its unlawful to use a slaughterman to kill and dress his animal as the slaughterman would then be supplying goods in the course of his business. Plus they have to be slaughtered in an approved premises otherwise the slaughter and any sale of the offence, including back to you is an offence. Refer to points 26 and 27 in particular.
You can send the animals away for slaughter then get someone to come and butcher them at your home but I think they are still only for your own consumption.
http://www.food.gov.uk/business-industry/guidancenotes/meatregsguid/home-slaughter-livestock/livestockguidance/homekillguide.pdf (http://www.food.gov.uk/business-industry/guidancenotes/meatregsguid/home-slaughter-livestock/livestockguidance/homekillguide.pdf)
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: deepinthewoods on November 06, 2012, 07:04:43 pm
i dont think that applies if its is solely for you and your fsamilys own consumption
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: freethyme on November 06, 2012, 07:15:36 pm
We only produce the meat for our own use and do not sell any on.
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: colliewoman on November 06, 2012, 07:28:08 pm
I was under the impression you could, if only for your own consumption have the sheep killed by someone else OR cut by someone else. The someone else can't do both parts as then only s/he can do the eating.
But bear in mind I have been trying to decipher this for YEARS and may well still be very wrong ;)
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: deepinthewoods on November 06, 2012, 07:29:38 pm
yes thats it, he can kill but not cut.
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: Rosemary on November 06, 2012, 07:30:15 pm
We only produce the meat for our own use and do not sell any on.

The only legal way to eat your own meat is to slaughter it yourself. YOU have to own it, YOU have to slaughter it and only YOU can eat it. Otherwise it has to go to the abattoir.

Sorry.
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: deepinthewoods on November 06, 2012, 07:32:38 pm
my last client had a lamb shot and gutted on his drive a few weeks ago, all legal. the slaughterman took the carcass away to a cutting plant to be butchered. it was all legal.
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: moony on November 06, 2012, 07:35:50 pm
If you kill it yourself you can butcher it and eat it yourself or within your family. Otherwise it has to go to a slaughterhouse. A slaughterman cant come to kill it regardless of whether he butchers it or not because as soon as he kills it he is supplying you goods and that is classed as putting it on the market which is illegal so it has to be done in an approved place. Ring trading standards who will clarify it. They can be very helpful for enquiries of this nature. However if you are caught not complying with them they are the biggest b******s known to man.
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: moony on November 06, 2012, 07:36:48 pm
my last client had a lamb shot and gutted on his drive a few weeks ago, all legal. the slaughterman took the carcass away to a cutting plant to be butchered. it was all legal.

I beg to differ. That is actually illegal if it was butchered.
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: deepinthewoods on November 06, 2012, 07:40:15 pm
im sorry but you are wrong. there are at least 2 mobile slaughtermen operating legally here in cornwall, it is not illegal. i can provide links by pm to the people who run these brilliant buisnesses
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: moony on November 06, 2012, 07:45:27 pm
If they kill them at an unlicensed premises and butcher them then the slaughter is an illegal offence as is the subsequent sale of meat unless the law has changed in the last 6 months. Only way its legal is if they have an approved mobile slaughter facility. Ring trading standards and ask them if you want. They would have a field day with them.

http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/advice/advice-business-ahcattlesum2.cfm (http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/advice/advice-business-ahcattlesum2.cfm)

I only know this is I know somebody who has fallen foul of the trading standards folk  They now get reinspected all the time and if they do it again they wont get off with the half hour lecture regarding blood being a byproduct that must be collected by a licensed waste carrier etc etc etc
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: Raine on November 06, 2012, 07:54:42 pm
I seem to remember a TV show that had a mobile slaughter man showing how it was done.  The vehicle had been made into the licensed premises, so he could legally kill animals at the farm itself.


It was a couple of years ago and may have been a trial in one county.  I do remember that kitting the vehicle out cost £100,000 ish to be able to do it.
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: deepinthewoods on November 06, 2012, 07:58:46 pm
they have a chiller van set up for hanging, like a butchers delivery van. they come to your holding , kill, gut and skin, remove carcass to processing plant, butcher, treat the hide (if you want) joint the meat and bring it back to you.
AS LONG as the meat does not enter the 'market' and is not sold in any way, and is for your own consuption, it is entirely legal and was approved at appeal in 2003
 
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:Lh_HynFWm1UJ:www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/privatekillguidance2006.pdf+food.gov.uk/privatekill&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShqdnlcEweRBZzybG0MMGGSeBFtN5VEJGQgGBJ0GifAR4nn4Yzg8O51UEl_E4R8qxRwZXW7Ev3yV9IDsl7-qiuoAjmtAcjS00waOP04BXGmlCz61AwuIiJ-pS7h5_220HISGtmA&sig=AHIEtbTbR-1M57UsLx_HD7AQGvSD6b7yoA (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:Lh_HynFWm1UJ:www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/privatekillguidance2006.pdf+food.gov.uk/privatekill&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShqdnlcEweRBZzybG0MMGGSeBFtN5VEJGQgGBJ0GifAR4nn4Yzg8O51UEl_E4R8qxRwZXW7Ev3yV9IDsl7-qiuoAjmtAcjS00waOP04BXGmlCz61AwuIiJ-pS7h5_220HISGtmA&sig=AHIEtbTbR-1M57UsLx_HD7AQGvSD6b7yoA)
 
please read para 2.  and 6. hth. :tree:
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: moony on November 06, 2012, 08:07:10 pm
Point 17 clarifies the siuation. As soon as the slaughterman/butcher supplies you the animal back it has entered the market therefore is illegal. Only way you can do it is kill it yourself and have someone dress it or dress it yourself as well.
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: deepinthewoods on November 06, 2012, 08:17:33 pm
i read that bit too, so am a bit confused. there must be a way around it, it seems quite common down here, since i saw this being done ive asked at my feedstore and some other people and  i have the link to the busuiness that does it, including a statement that says hes a member of the humane society. i will pm you the link, and would be interested in opinion, i will call him tomorrow to get some clarification.
 
in fact its easier to just google 'mobile slaughterman cornwall'.
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: deepinthewoods on November 06, 2012, 08:22:40 pm
ok, i misread the process, here is what he does.
 
' From a simple telephone call a visit is arranged, and in the case of injured animals this is normally within a matter of hours.

The animal is slaughtered, and prepared for hanging, a large chiller can be supplied for this purpose in the case of warm weather.

Up to 14 days later the hung carcase is cut up to joints ready for the freezer, all waste products are cleared from the area and disposed of according to legislation, and hides are prepared for curing/tanning at a local tannery''




so the carcass is hung and processed on Your  property, that makes sense now, as
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: moony on November 06, 2012, 08:31:40 pm
I have looked at his site and I still believe that to be illegal. That is point 16 on the link you gave.

I think it is a brilliant much needed service, there is certainly a market for it, and I certainly think there should be some form of this allowed but due to the scope for abuse and restrictions in inspections and regulations it isnt as far as I am aware.
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: deepinthewoods on November 06, 2012, 08:40:48 pm
if its illegal, its most ridiculously blatant, he has a signwritten van, a website, and a regular client base, why hasnt he been shut down?
 
i will now phone him tomorrow and ask some pertinent questions.  im sure hes been asked them all before.
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: Bumblebear on November 06, 2012, 09:37:52 pm
Maybe it's to do with the fact that he lends a chiller?  Then he isn't actually suppling anything, it's no different to you killing at home and butchering...kind of...it doesnt leave the premises.
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: deepinthewoods on November 06, 2012, 09:40:44 pm
thats where i think it works too.
 
i have just spoken to him, and i hadnt realised it was late, 'could i call back in office hours' sort of thing. ;D
 
i shall update tomorrow.
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: freethyme on November 07, 2012, 07:52:25 pm
Evening
Wow - loads of information from you all - thanks.
Looks as if I will have to keep taking by lambs and pigs to abattoir/butchers.  Lucky for me they are within 20 miles and they do a great job.
It just seems a shame that a qualified slaughterman cant come to the small holding and do the job in a professional way reducing the stress on the animal.
I would do the job myself, but as I am not trained or experienced in the kill and cut process I would not be confident in doing so. May be the answer is for me to get trained in these skills. Next task then is to research where to get the training.
Thanks for all your help.
 
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: farmersownconsumptionltd on November 18, 2012, 01:43:59 pm
hi,, I'm just setting up as a mobile (own consumption)slaughter-man,
in conjunction with B & S Pointon butchers waste collectors
I'd be happy to help with your own consumption needs...

Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: deepinthewoods on November 18, 2012, 02:20:05 pm
aha!
 
please could you explain what i obviously have failed to, thanks!
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: farmersownconsumptionltd on November 18, 2012, 03:05:20 pm
the laws pretty simple,,
a farmer/smallholder can kill/bleed/skin & cut a animal
he owns on his own property for his & family's own
consumption ,,
the problems start with the disposal of the waste is
offal & bone,according to defra laws, I'm lucky that
my mate operates a by-products business collecting
this waste, so sort of a mutual partnership for me, him &
the farmer/small holder concerned
I want to specialise in injured cattle own consumption
at the moment,, laws have just changed and there will be
no such thing as a slaughtermans license, moreover
a certificate of competence ,, which I take in January
but can do injured animals now under animal welfare law
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: deepinthewoods on November 18, 2012, 03:13:33 pm
so is it possible to have a mobile slaughterman come to your holding, kill, hang and cut on your premises, with him disposing of the waste?
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: farmersownconsumptionltd on November 18, 2012, 03:26:06 pm
yes,, as long as the meat is used for the owners
and as long as the waste(offal/bone) is disposed of
legally, and the animals two tag ref numbers are
taken , farm number & animal number and the
authorities informed that the animal has been disposed.
off
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: deepinthewoods on November 18, 2012, 03:29:46 pm
thank you. :thumbsup:
 
 
 ;D
 
 
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: farmersownconsumptionltd on November 18, 2012, 03:52:00 pm
I live in Nuneaton, 15-20 mjns from Birmingham
airport,, so any of you get an injured cow , bull , lamb
sheep or pig and don't wanna scrap the animal
just let me know and we'll sort something out
you will need to winch it using farm equipment
if its a cow or bull, my Landrover can only lift so
much
or just want one doin anyway
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: Haylo-peapod on November 18, 2012, 05:12:40 pm
What area do you cover and do you provide a chiller unit?
 
Basically, what does the farmer/smallholder need to supply/do other than provide a suitably tagged animal...and payment of course.
 
Also, do you have a website yet?
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: Factotum on November 18, 2012, 05:19:33 pm
OK, now I'm confused.

In Scotland:
Slaughter on-farm by an itinerant slaughterman
27. It is  unlawful for a farmer to use the services  of an itinerant slaughterman both to
slaughter his animal and to dress it.  This is because the slaughterman would be
supplying goods (i.e. a dressed carcase) in the course of his business.



Has this guidance been replaced - if so can you provide a link.
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: colliewoman on November 18, 2012, 05:54:36 pm
yes,, as long as the meat is used for the owners
and as long as the waste(offal/bone) is disposed of
legally, and the animals two tag ref numbers are
taken , farm number & animal number and the
authorities informed that the animal has been disposed.
off






Ooooooohhh!!! SO if for example, someone in Somerset wanted a few lambs killed and cut, what paperwork would be required/provided please?
I am liking the sound of this so long as the paper trail is OCD proof :-[ ;D
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: deepinthewoods on November 18, 2012, 06:10:42 pm
OK, now I'm confused.

In Scotland:
Slaughter on-farm by an itinerant slaughterman
27. It is  unlawful for a farmer to use the services  of an itinerant slaughterman both to
slaughter his animal and to dress it.  This is because the slaughterman would be
supplying goods (i.e. a dressed carcase) in the course of his business.



Has this guidance been replaced - if so can you provide a link.

 
would this not apply only to meat aimed to enter the market, ie sold by the farmer??
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: Factotum on November 18, 2012, 06:54:33 pm
No I don't think so as there is another section:

Home slaughter by the farmer for his  own consumption and/or that of his
immediate family living in the same household 
25. This is lawful.  As the farmer does not, in these circumstances, act as a food business
operator, the EU Food Hygiene Regulations do not apply.  However home slaughter
does fall within the scope of the WASK,  the TSE and animal by-products (ABP)
Regulations.  So animals must be slaughtered humanely, SRM must be removed,
stained and disposed of as a category 1 animal by-product.  Cattle requiring BSE
testing must test negative before consumption.


I take that to mean the farmer does the slaughtering and then eats the meat with his family - that's OK. But section 27 says an itinerant slaughter man is illegal - no mention of the final destination of the meat.

Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: Calvadnack on November 19, 2012, 02:01:04 pm



Do have a look at the our local mobile slaughterman's website, as his business is still running after a legal ruling.  http://www.lesstress.co.uk/ (http://www.lesstress.co.uk/)  which may not apply under Scottish law.


Our local trading standards is perfectly happy with animals being slaughtered at home and I was even told about Keith Long by our local police officer - but maybe that's just rural Cornwall!!

Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: Factotum on November 19, 2012, 02:47:22 pm
The same rules apply in England, according to the Food Standards Agency.


Q3. How should I have my own animals slaughtered for my own
consumption?
There are two lawful ways in which to have your animals slaughtered and
prepared for your own consumption:
(a) in an approved slaughterhouse; or
(b) on your farm by you.
The Food Standards Agency advises that option (a) would generally carry a
lower risk to your health than option (b).
It would be unlawful in all cases to employ anyone else - including a
slaughterman to slaughter the animal on your property. It would also be
unlawful to have the animal slaughtered anywhere else away from your
property other than in an approved slaughterhouse.


It may be the local authority is turning a blind eye to this, but it's still illegal. The emphasis in section 'b' is by you

See link here:http://www.food.gov.uk/business-industry/guidancenotes/meatregsguid/home-slaughter-livestock/livestockguidance/homekillguide.pdf (http://www.food.gov.uk/business-industry/guidancenotes/meatregsguid/home-slaughter-livestock/livestockguidance/homekillguide.pdf)
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: moony on November 19, 2012, 03:35:45 pm
It is by the letter of the law illegal. I posted a few links earlier on in the post. Lesstress were prosecuted, appealed and again founnd to be operating illegally.. Its only because of a technicality that the governing body had a name change making the prosecution unenforceable that they were able to continue trading. A lot of money was wasted pursuing the case and it therefore hasn't been looked at again.
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: deepinthewoods on November 19, 2012, 05:27:36 pm
lucky cornwall eh!
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: jinglejoys on November 19, 2012, 07:06:35 pm
Just move to Europe and do what the hell you like they still farm over there! :rant:
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: deepinthewoods on November 19, 2012, 08:22:49 pm
arent we in europe :eyelashes:
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: Richard Underwood on November 24, 2012, 06:34:05 pm
I would like to point out that just because the FSA guidelines say the use of a mobile slaughterman is against the law does not mean that it is. It is always worth going back to the primary legislation. In this case it does appear the FSA is trying to stretch the legislation well beyond what was intended.

In paragraph 26 they say "It is unlawful for a farmer to use the services of an itinerant slaughterman both to slaughter his animal and to dress it. This is because the slaughterman would be supplying goods (i.e. a dressed carcase) in the course of his business." This is not in the legislation it is the FSA's interpretation of it. And it is a remarkable interpretation of the business relationship between a slaughterman and the animal owner as it assumes ownership of either the animal or the carcase at some point passes to the slaughterman and then back again rather than assuming that the slaughterman is providing a service to the owner. This is like saying that if you employ a dog walker then they take ownership of your unexercised dog and they later supply you with an exercised dog!

In fact the EU regulation the FSA quote (No 853/2004) states explicitly that "This Regulation shall not apply in relation to:
(a) primary production for private domestic use; (b) the domestic preparation, handling or storage of food for private domestic consumption;
..." which appears to cover what most of us want to do.

Unfortunately, until someone successfully defends against a prosecution it isn't possible to determine whether or not it really is legal to employ a slaughterman in this way and you risk prosecution, even if it is unsuccessful.

 
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: kanisha on November 24, 2012, 08:54:17 pm
thank you :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: Padge on November 27, 2012, 09:01:05 am
Gosh this subject is facinating    Just been reading this
http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/nelincs/bus1item.cgi?file=*BADV654-1001.txt (http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/nelincs/bus1item.cgi?file=*BADV654-1001.txt)
 
 
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: woollyval on November 29, 2012, 10:57:40 am
Dear All

Dont know about fascinating....I am now totally confuddled.....I reckon that you have several different departments all contradicting each other.....its like some sort of black comedy! In Europe total common sense seems to reign....Here it would seem each government department has taken European advice/legislation and added differing whistles and bells to it....often at odds with another department, then given them all to local authorities to decipher and consequently we have Cornwall doing something you apparently cannot do in Nuneaton and Scotland saying you cannot do ir at all but in case you do...

I'm not surprised we are confused if the powers that be are confused

Signed
Confused of Somerset
Title: Re: Mobile slaughterman
Post by: oaklandspigs on November 29, 2012, 07:26:49 pm

In paragraph 26 they say "It is unlawful for a farmer to use the services of an itinerant slaughterman both to slaughter his animal and to dress it. This is because the slaughterman would be supplying goods (i.e. a dressed carcase) in the course of his business." This is not in the legislation it is the FSA's interpretation of it.

Richard,
 
Interestingly the 2006 version of the same guidance said "
16. It is unlawful for a farmer to use the services of an itinerant slaughterman both to
kill his animal and to dress it. This is because (as explained at paragraph 6(b) above) the
slaughterman would be supplying goods (i.e. a dressed carcase) in the course of his
business. The slaughter and the supply of the dressed carcase back to the farmer would
give rise to a number of offences under Article 4 of EC Regulation 853/2004, as would
any subsequent placing on the market. If, however, the slaughterman did no more than
kill the animal for the farmer, leaving the farmer to dress and cut the carcase, the Courts
might be less likely to conclude that the slaughterman was supplying goods (and more
likely to be supplying services). If so, this activity might be held to be lawful, (i.e. neither
the Hygiene Regulations nor the TSE Regulations would prohibit it) although the issue is

far from clear."
 
Somewhere the last 2 sentances were taken off the 2009 version, although no law had changed !