The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: bloomer on October 11, 2012, 04:24:17 pm
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-19909801 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-19909801)
very sad...
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I heard this on the local radio earlier. Details are sketchy.
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It happened up here last year :-[ Awful.
Needs education of the public and the advice to let your dog off the lead if you find yourself in that situation, so that the dog, and you, can get yourself separately out of it - it seems to be the safest for both.
No point the howls that came in the papers up here that farmers shouldn't put cattle where there are footpaths - many would therefore not be able to use half their land.
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If anything like the cattle here, there are a lot of calves out and very excitable at the mo. I have to go through a cattle field to hack out, but that's with a horse, which they dont see as a threat, just as something interesting, we still give them a VERY wide berth. And I would never contemplate taking my dog through there.
TBH I think when there are young calves and cows in a field it would be sensible for dog walkers to choose another route for a few weeks. Farmers have to make a living and young cattle are part of that, taking a dog through is just foolhardy IMO. Of course they have the 'right to' but then I have the 'right' to ride my horse on a massively busy A road - do I do it, no, because it's too dangerous. Here the danger is likely to lessen as the calves get older, tho not disappear, so common sense would say wait and go another route till that point.
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we've had some in derbyshire
the footpaths have advice about how to walk with dogs through fields
Mx
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I know we always give the advice that the owner should loose the dog if the cattle start coming towards it - but most dogs when frightened will come and hide behind their owners' legs! ::)
So really, dog walkers should avoid fields with cattle in, particularly when it's cows with young calves. And farmers should where possible avoid putting cows with young calves in fields with well-used public footpaths.
It is more of a problem if you are visiting an area and have planned, say, a 6-mile walk, only to find at 2.5 miles out there's a path across a field full of cows and calves. To be safe, you should turn back - but I do understand why a walker would choose to try to get across and continue their planned walk.
Having said which, it is often local people when these things do happen - the very people who should know the cattle and the farmer, and would know where else they could walk their dogs for the necessary few weeks.
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I think it's another good reason for people to stick to public footpaths!
If I read it correctly, there was no footpath in the field the lady was in, so the farmer has every right ot graze whatever stock he wishes in it IMO.
Tragic for the lady and her family, but if you don't want trouble, don't tresspass :-\
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If I read it correctly, there was no footpath in the field the lady was in, so the farmer has every right ot graze whatever stock he wishes in it IMO.
Yes, of course.
I think it's another good reason for people to stick to public footpaths!
But.... taking those two sentences together, does this imply that farmers must not put livestock which could be dangerous in fields with public footpaths across?
Plus - what would be the rules for 'open access' land?
And what about Scotland, where there are no 'public footpaths' as everywhere is 'right to roam'? (Or if this Sassenach doesn't understand the Scottish situation, please will someone set me right! ;))
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Ah I see what you mean, i have always been led to believe that I mustn't put potentially dangerous stock on land with a footpath, and indeed here you will rarely find a ram, cow with calf, mare with foal in the same field. However, what i am used to and have assumed to be a law may not in fact be so. I would be very interested to hear others opinions on the matter.
Certainly the land I am now renting I an intending to fence of the footpath so my rams cannot get near to walkers, just in case.
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I think the woman would just have thought 'ah there's no bull in there so it's fine' and proceeded without realising she was endangering herself.
As I understand it we now have 'open access' to anywhere we want to walk - a rule surely thought up by someone who knows nothing about the giant food production factory which is the countryside, and the production units ie livestock involved.
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We farm 23 main fields/enclosures. 11 have no rights of way or paths across, of which 5 are hay fields (so closed to livestock for much of the spring and summer), 1 is rented as sheep keep (so no cattle), 1 has cattle excluded for late spring and summer under an environmental scheme and the other 4 are usually too soggy to be suitable for adult cattle.
I am all for people being able to use the countryside - but not to the extent that this farm would have to give up farming beef in order to never expose a walker to a cow with a calf.
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I haven't read the story but I think one or two of you need to re read the title to this thread.
If I were an outsider or newcomer to this forum I'd see some who thought because they've got a few acres they can strut round with a 'get off my land attitude'.
On this island we have a large population and as such farm animals and the public will 'coincide'. Aside from the laws about footpaths and rights to roam, the public have responsibilities on where they walk, as do the stock owners have responsibilities on the stock they own and where they put them. In the same way, I as a driver have a responsibility not to run over a cyclist who's not obeying the highway code.
One of the fundamental questions that needs to be asked is why these incidents seem to be on the increase.
Also, at the heart of this is a farmer who has to sit and eat his breakfast with his family, knowing that this has happened on his farm and done by one of his animals. The lady who was trampled, let's not forget, to death presumably has a family, possibly an employer, friends and neighbours who will all be affected by the incident.
So please re read the title of the thread and can we consider the fundamental question ?
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I am truly saddened for the lady and her family as I said, and I am thinking of the farmer who's land this is happening on but what IS the solution?
How do you protect the public when the public don't follow the rules?
Farmers would have to stop grazing cattle full stop if suddenly we had to not graze cattle anywhere where public could physically get to, rather than where they are legally allowed :-\
This discussion has already made me realise that what is easy for me and others locally in regards to keeping stock and walkers separately, isn't as easy for others.
But how do you convince the public that farm animals are dangerous? Cos some of the walkers here simply won't believe you and assume you are telling them a pack of lies just to keep them off the land (of which there is no public access in this case).
What IS the solution?
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Stick a risk assessment notice on your gates,
THESE COWS ( THIS RAM/ BULL/CHICKEN etc)WILL TRAMPLE YOU IF YOU ARE STUPID ENOUGH TO ENTER THIS FIELD WITH A DOG,
enter at your own risk, blame yourself when you get injured. :rant:
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Ooo no no no, admission of liability right there ;)
People just don't "get it".
I know of dog walkers thrilled to find a fenced in field so they can let their dogs off with an unreliable recall - not even thinking that maybe it's fenced for something else.
On a more sympathetic note, I'd be uneasy about diverting from a footpath around e.g. stock for fear of being accused of trespass ???
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One of the fundamental questions that needs to be asked is why these incidents seem to be on the increase.
So please re read the title of the thread and can we consider the fundamental question ?
From the picture with the story, it looks very much as if there's a well used walk alongside the river, although it says this isn't a public footpath.
Why are these incidents on the increase?
Could it be the way we've bred stock they're more aggressive?
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Could it be that people are disconnected and don't know how to "read" animals?
Could it be that more and more people are encouraged to go out and play in the country?
Could it more more and more reporting of the same number of incidents?
:-\
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I think you are right Yorkshire Lass.
I dont think generally the stock are more aggressive, however they are a lot bigger (continental breeds) and some breeds are a bit more flighty (Simmentals for eg). I am happier with the horse when the neighbour has the Angus in the field than when it is the Charolais, I find the Angus curiouser but less flighty/unpredictable.
The issue is that with modern cars and modern 'leisure' footpaths originally used by farmer to reach stock, canalman to walk horse pulling barge or track used as a route to take the coffin to church are now used instead by hundreds of people, often taking dogs with them even where there are cows and often calves. Also people have lost their knowledge of what is safe round animals and what isnt, and have a sense of 'right' to go where they please with dogs.
I dont think the cattle are behaving anything other than as cattle, we also dont know whether there have been issues of dogs with those cattle in the past that the farmer isnt aware of etc.
It would be nice to walk my dog both directions from my house but I recognise that my neighbour is a cattle farmer, he breeds breeding bulls and therefore his fields are going to have cattle in, and I behave accordingly.
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One of the fundamental questions that needs to be asked is why these incidents seem to be on the increase.
So please re read the title of the thread and can we consider the fundamental question ?
From the picture with the story, it looks very much as if there's a well used walk alongside the river, although it says this isn't a public footpath.
Why are these incidents on the increase?
Could it be the way we've bred stock they're more aggressive?
Personally i don't think its anything to do with more aggressive stock, its the publics perception and misinterpretation of the 'Right to roam' laws. The public think they can now walk anywhere and thats why theres an increase in these incidents plus they are now more widely reported. Its an awful thing to happen but if she was somewhere she should not have been, That it was a 'well used' walking area is no excuse, the farmer probably allowed locals to use it but in the same context he was just as entitled to put his beast in there, well you pays your money you take your chance, harsh but a reality.
There is no easy solution all that can be done is to make the public more aware of the dangers and this in itself is difficult without making yourself liable in this if in doubt sue age we live in. :(
Mandy :pig:
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I think the increase is about public's misunderstanding of where they can go and what they can do too.
I think people think you have a right, more generally, to do what you want. If you want to walk through a field you well you have that right, why should anything stop you.
No sense of responsibilities balancing with rights, nor of maybe not getting your way all the time.
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I don't know how this topic got onto questioning farmers rights to graze animals in their own fields. The term dangerous animal is usually restricted to bulls, stallions and wild boar. (Someone will correct me if I am wrong)
If walkers were to campaign for cows with calves to be deemed dangerous the farmers would probably have to retaliate by applying to close the footpaths at calving time. It is usually only the first few days that a cow would be so calf proud that she would attack intruders. Anyway the main culprits for trampling are young heifers or steers.
Back to the topic, there should definately be education of how to pass cattle safely, especially with dogs.
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I think cattle are definitely less placid than they used to be, even milk cows. As kids we would be sent down the field to walk the milk cows up to be milked (except if there was a newly calved heifer!) Now they are brought in at speed with quads and I do think that has made a difference. I know these were sucklers but they are still probably moved around with quads.
It's fairly easy to blame the "stupid public" but farmers sometimes get caught too. My mother had a very near do, having moved some sheep at her sisters she took a short cut back not knowing there were sucklers in this very big field. They soon came at her and would certainly have trampled her had she not had her sheepdog which she sent away from her to distract them whilst she legged it over the wall. She only just got there before the cows! This is a lady who had farmed all her life, not stupid at all.
I think farmers could put signs up to warn if there are cows and calves in the field and suggest it be avoided by people with dogs. I certainly would find another route, or go back the way I came.
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but we do put signs up, and clearly state that there is no public right of way. Still they walk through with their dogs.
I got screamed at years back by some bloke because, and I quote 'your sheep has just nearly killed my dog who was playing with it's lambs'. Again, no public access and I'm the one being threatened with being sued???
I had asked him repeatedly to put his dogs on leads as I had freshly lambed ewes in the field he insisted on trespassing and I got told to F*** off!
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Here's a story from the local newspaper here
http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/2964644 (http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/2964644)
Folk are now enraged that warning signs have been taken down which warned people that seals could attack.
So, the reasoning is - the signs have been removed so the seals are no longer dangerous?
I think we live in a blame culture fuelled by the USA who sue just about anyone for anything.
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There is a limit to the number of warning signs one can stick on a gate post, especially to a field where no-one is supposed to have access. But farming itself has a depressingly high injury rate so maybe there is something to be done.
When I was a kid I remember playing on the completely unsecured building site next to my house in the evenings. These days there'd be security fencing and warning signs, both for the public and for the workers on site. Round here I rarely see builders without safety kit: equally I rarely see farmers using it except when mixing chemicals.
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but we do put signs up, and clearly state that there is no public right of way. Still they walk through with their dogs.
I got screamed at years back by some bloke because, and I quote 'your sheep has just nearly killed my dog who was playing with it's lambs'. Again, no public access and I'm the one being threatened with being sued???
I had asked him repeatedly to put his dogs on leads as I had freshly lambed ewes in the field he insisted on trespassing and I got told to F*** off!
well there really is no cure for stupidity is there! stupid man!!
Do you think people have got the wrong idea about open access? As I understand it there are designated areas of open access where you don't have to stick to foothpaths, but otherwise if there isn't a public right of way you are trespassing.
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Do you think people have got the wrong idea about open access? As I understand it there are designated areas of open access where you don't have to stick to foothpaths, but otherwise if there isn't a public right of way you are trespassing.
Definetly in my experience.
mandy :pig:
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This thread has got a bit split here, a dog 'playing' with lambs is a totally different call to a person being trampled by cattle.
I'd shoot the dog, no question and the member of the public could sue. Or attack me and I'd shoot him too, probably gonna be ok on that one soon :-J
My point with the cattle was that my thinking is they're more aggressive than they used to be when I worked on a dairy farm as a child.
Thank you Shep for getting the point.
The answer to this problem of people being killed along with all the suffering to ALL parties that that must bring is almost certainly not to stick a notice up.
IMHO cattle are more aggressive is it breeding is it feeding ?
On the dog thread one brand of dog food is seemingly known for the effect it has on dogs.
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Common sense is needed. Cows with calves are dangerous. nature tells them to protect their babies and a dog in the field is a threat. I was once walking along a country road next to a field of bullocks. I had my 3 dogs on the lead. One bullock jumped the fence and I had to run for my life with the dogs. Lucky for me I was near the farm and the guy came out on his quad bike to chase it. He said he had just bought them the day before and this was the 2nd time this bullock had come over the fence. It is very sad that this poor woman lost her life and I feel for her family :bouquet:
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My point with the cattle was that my thinking is they're more aggressive than they used to be when I worked on a dairy farm as a child.
Thank you Shep for getting the point.
The answer to this problem of people being killed along with all the suffering to ALL parties that that must bring is almost certainly not to stick a notice up.
IMHO cattle are more aggressive is it breeding is it feeding ?
On the dog thread one brand of dog food is seemingly known for the effect it has on dogs.
I see what you are getting at now, apologies for being a bit dense.
I wonder if it is the fact that there isn't so much direct handling now? Quads and tractors now used instead of a cowman(woman) and a dog. Could it be that cattle aren't used to dogs like they used to be?? My Dad always brought the cows in with a dog, and they would barely look at another dog walking by.
I can't speak for the feed as the farmer I help still feeds straights and silage/hay.
What does go into cattle feed now? does anyone have a label handy with ingredients and percentages? I'll check the dairy nuts when I get home as that is what i feed the goats, saying that.....
I know if I feed Gill my AN goat on coarse mix, she is unhandleable. Not aggressive but bolshy rude and very strong. In short she would be dangerous even if she didn't mean it. If I compare her to a full grown cow, if the effects are the same then that could be a recipe for disaster.
You may be on to something :-\
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IMHO cattle are more aggressive is it breeding is it feeding ?
On the dog thread one brand of dog food is seemingly known for the effect it has on dogs.
Your food idea could be right. I remember having a friend's cattle in our fields - Angus, Blondies, including cows with babies - we could take our dogs through any time. Admittedly the cattle did know us as the fields were right beside the house and we went over to them every day, but even so they showed no aggression at all. In fact one cow abandoned her calf, the farmer assumed it was dead, but her men couldn't find the body they were looking for, my dog Flash went on point and found the heifer calf - it had been moving every time the men came looking for it. Managed to pair her up with another cow that had lost it's own calf. She was called Lightning by our friends (see the connection? Moved fast, found by a Flash? ;D) and is still on the farm as far as I know. Liz decided she deserved to live. :excited: