The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: Moleskins on October 07, 2012, 07:58:00 am
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There's a lady up the road with an Alsation which has proved to be a handful.
We've all seen cartoons of dogs snarling and they're depicted with ridges on the top of the nose and bits of spit coming out of the mouth, well this dog is like that.
The other day I came past on the tractor and she has to get it up against something and hold it there with one leg whilst talking to it and distracting it with a toy. I thought it had improved, until yesterday when I came across her whilst out with my dog. The Alsation did its usual thing, at one point it lunged backwards straining on the lead which is attached to a head collar (?) I couldn't help but think if anything slipped we were in trouble.
She finished up with it on its hind legs between her and the wall, her face in the dogs talking to it to calm it, we saw our chance and got past.
What would you do with it, she's had it two years.
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German shepherds are guard dogs and it seems this one is doing its thing very effectively! They are also one-person dogs, in a way many of the other breeds I've kept are not.
Dogs are often less agressive when not on leads and not defending 'their' person.
We had one, an enormous fella, my ex's police dog. As you can imagine therefore he was very well trained! But one day I had to take him to the vets. I am experienced with dogs, knew this one well and could do (most) things with him but was not his handler. I therefore put him between me and the reception counter as I was paying, mashed up to the wall with my legs. A lady leant right over him, in this crowded space, over his head, to pet him. He exploded from his lying position, all teeth and the most alarming baying/growling noise! Fortunately I did still have hold of his lead and he was constrained, so she was able to back off, offended but in one piece.
I tell the story just to illustrate that it wasn't lack of training, nor lack of handling in this case. It was purely his nature and the situation he found himself in. Would he have done it if my ex had been there? His view was 'probably, silly bint'.
So I don't know if additional training would change the fact that your neihbbour's dog wants to eat anyone who comes close to his missus. She seems to be handling him reasonably well but maybe she could do with the ability to put him 'in a down' ie have him lie down when someone comes by.
If he's two, having him 'done' won't make much difference now.
I'm not saying all German Shepherds have this temperament, but feisty entire males certainly can.
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Our first GSD 'Deuce' became very protective of his 'pack' as he matured (was neutered at 6 months old) and by the time Rebecca came along (when he was 2) his behaviour was getting a bit out of hand :-\
He was very well trained and we had him at the vet for blood tests (incase it was something physical) and we had a doggy behaviourist out to see him (we were feeding Bakers complete, which she said to stop immediately because the colourants in it were making him hyper)
We looked at a lot of options (none of which included rehoming as a pet) but unfortunately during this time there was an incident at the dinner table one day where he possibly nipped Becca's fingers...... she was fine, but he refused point blank to come out from under the table - he knew he'd done wrong :( that was it for him I'm afraid :'( :'( :'(
I think (and it's only my view) when there is a question about behaviour, especially with a big dog (wee dogs, no matter how aggressive never seem to be seen as such a threat) that the owner has to do the responsible thing. Deuce would have been put down much sooner if we'd lived anywhere with passing traffic or lots of people around - it does sound like an accident waiting to happen if she can't control him :-\
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I wonder if the dog gets the exercise it really needs.
A neighbour of mine had a dog which was OK with people but went for any other dog. as a result the female owner was afraid to let it off the lead ., ... so a hyper dog just got a controlled walk on a lead, never using all its energy. .... recipe for even more agression.
Also, even I, could feel the womans nerves as I walked past... so no wonder her dog went into agressive protection mode , it must have throught me and my dog were 'the enemy'
After 2 years it seems unlikely things will change for the better. :(
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Never owned this breed and the gundogs I have owned have always had the opposite problem ..... too enthusiastic to be friendly. ::)
However, I think that many dogs seem to show more aggression when on the lead, especially towards other dogs. I really don't like it when other dog owners bring their on the lead dog to say hello to mine.
If it really is "aggressive" then perhaps it should be muzzled in public places. Don't like muzzles but people should not feel threatened when out and about.
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The lady has had another alsation previously which went off it's legs but they kept it to the end, shows real dedication, I feel for her having this one and getting such a problem.
I've seen it off the lead on occasion but as soon as anyone comes onto the field or nearby she does get it under control, quite honestly I think she'd be silly not to.
I admire her tenacity at getting as far as she has but seeing this backward lunge yesterday it made me think that if anything went wrong with the head collar and it slipped off somebody could be in real trouble.
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She sounds to be trying really hard with a difficult situation. If you have to pass her with your dog try not let the dogs walk straight towards each other - try veering off to one side so you'll be less of a threat, and the same yourself - look away and turn away if possible.
[size=78%](we were feeding Bakers complete, which she said to stop immediately because the colourants in it were making him hyper)[/size]
Bakers has an awful lot to answer for - it should have a health warning on the side!
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I had a German Wirehaired Pointer till last year when she died at 14. German Breeds do seem to have an aggressive streak in them, partly due to what they are used for over there. GWPs are trained to kill game, not just find and retrieve it as in the UK)
She was an absolute gem with people, brilliant with my grandkids or anyone else's for that matter - but other dogs were a no go. I was advised to muzzle her by my vet when I moved down here. I hated the idea but she accepted it well, and form that moment on i was able to relax, she relaxed, and I was able to let her run free with my other dogs and just call her to heel if we met any others. I wouldn't have believed the change in her.
Perhaps you could suggest that to her?
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Interesting that one of the things Barbara Sykes does with hyper and aggressive Border Collies, is to adjust their diet. Less protein I seem to remember. Also miles more exercise.
Dogs definitely pick up on your own nervousness. I used to pull Skye in and get up tight whenever we met a particular dog in the woods that Skye hated and would go for. As my ex pointed out, I was signalling to Skye that I was scared, this dog was trouble, and that therefore he needed to protect me - which he did very effectively!
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Thats just what I meant Jaykay - Hester was protecting me but when we both accepted that she was not allowed to bite, by her wearing a muzzle, them we both relaxed and she didn't go for other dogs then.
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I can see how that would work Annie :)
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Dogs definitely pick up on your own nervousness. I used to pull Skye in and get up tight whenever we met a particular dog in the woods that Skye hated and would go for. As my ex pointed out, I was signalling to Skye that I was scared, this dog was trouble, and that therefore he needed to protect me - which he did very effectively!
Exactly so. I once had a GSDxLab who was absolutely lovely with everything except other male dogs, and with them he was the devil incarnate. :o
I found I had to watch him like a hawk, and when he approached another male dog, stay well clear, let them sniff and do the initial greetings, then just before the moment when Moses would strike a pose and say, "Go on then - make my day", I would have to call him away. If I called too soon, he'd have lost face so wouldn't come and if I left it a second too late, the other dog would have time to say, "Oh yeah? You and whose army?" and it would be a case of diving in to seperate them. (Incredibly, I only ever got bitten once doing this.)
A friend used to look after him when I was away, and Mose would always be worse with other male dogs when I got him back. I eventually discovered that the friend had been so frightened of his having a fight, she'd call him and leash him whenever she saw another dog in the distance, and then hold him really close, being very nervous, as the other dog passed. Of course what she transmitted to Moses was, "Other dogs are really scarey and I need protecting from them."
I'd planned to have this dog castrated when I first got him - he was a rescue, we reckoned probably about 12 months old when I got him - but my vet friend (male! of course! ::)) had talked me out of it.
Well, Moses had now become almost unmanageable around other male dogs, even by me, so I decided to get him castrated anyway. It was explained to me that adult dogs produce testosterone in the adrenal glands in the kidneys as well as in the testes, so in some dogs castration later on in life may have minimal effect; it depends what proportion of his testosterone he produces in his adrenal glands. It takes quite a time for the levels to reduce, plus of course there are some learned behaviours / habits to unlearn, but in Moses' case, he did become quite a bit more placid over a period of about 12 months. I definitely did wish I'd had it done earlier - I'd been having to plan walk routes around where and when I didn't expect to come across other male dogs for quite a few years, and, I realised once he'd calmed down, I'd never been relaxed when he was off-lead in case another dog appeared unexpectedly.
So I absolutely would suggest to this lady that she try castration. She surely won't breed from an animal with such a temperament quirk anyway, so she won't miss his nuts, and as long as she takes care with his diet so he doesn't get overweight, the worst that happens is she has a vet bill and not much difference. But if she's lucky, as I was with Moses, and her dog produces most of his testosterone in his testes and not much if any in his adrenal glands, she may end up with a dog that's a lot more of a pleasure to take for a walk.
Her vet may suggest that she could try an anti-testosterone jab to "see what the effect of castration would be like." I can't recommend this. The vet friend who condemned me to years of unnecessary hassle succeeded in his persuasion largely through getting me to try one of these jabs on Mose. The dog just basically slept for a month, listless, disinterested in anything, a great big flobby mound of blubber that was no fun to own. When in the end I did get him castrated, it made no difference to him at all in any respect except that he did gradually become less aggressive towards other male dogs.
Whether she has him castrated or not, the GSD's owner will need to do some socialising training with the dog and - more importantly - with herself handling the dog as well. The Breed Society should be able to tell you about trainers and clubs in your area.
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I had German Shepherds for years, only losing Tanya last March. She was a rescue and came to us age 6 months. total screw ball. hated men and went crazy when the postman arrived. I worked on her, built up a trust and in return she became a loving animal who still now and again could show her nasty side when strangers appeared. The one thing I can say, she always backed down when I told her to.All my Shepherds were trained the same way as the police do. I knew that one word from me and they listened. I had their respect and they had mine. Dogs that are out of control are never safe. Wither its down to bad breeding ( parents were the same ) or handling, letting the dog get the upper hand where it decides it rules or the dog has been mistreated. Working dogs of all breeds need to be doing a job, kept busy and happy. Wrong food can cause them to be over the top just like a child with ADHD. This person has a dog that she cannot control and must act now to sort this out before someone gets hurt.
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When I got my collie cross from Wiccaways I had to sign to say I wouldn't ever feed him Bakers because of the effect it has on collies in particular. there really should be a warning issued with it!
Linda
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With all the bad press about the colourants, e numbers etc in this product I don't know why they are still in business. ::)
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When anyone new came to my training class it was so easy to know they were feeding Bakers. I had quite a job convincing owners that it was the food they were using that was there main problem. Should be banned.
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I was on the point of politely passing this info onto the owner of this loony Alsation when my OH told me that it's fed on raw meat, whole chicken, bones and all.
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Raw meat's a good diet for many dogs, but people don't always realise how much more nutritious than tinned or dried food it is, so the chances are she's feeding way too much raw meat - especially if she's not able to give it off-lead exercise.
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Yup, too much protein = flying around like crazy. My dogs are a working breed, and I keep them at around 18 to 20% protein, and keep fats down, unless they have a work day ahead of them.
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Sorry to hijack thread but if i shouldn't be feeding bakers what do i choose instead?
mandy :pig:
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Whatever you change to do it gradually so as not to upset the stomach - over a week should be OK. Look for e numbers and additives on the bag and avoid if there are a lot of them. The choice of dog food is very subjective as there are so many. I find my dogs do very well on Skinners Field and Trial Maintenance, and it is reasonably priced at around £17 a bag, and they also get treats occasionally. Other brands I have used are Dr Johns (silver is better than Gold I was told) Some people su cheaper brands and their dogs are fine on them - trial and error till you find one to suit your dog and suit your pocket is probably the best guidance. Expensive foods are Royal Canin, Arden grange, Challenge, etc
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Thanks for the tips, read about Skinners in one of OH's shooting mags so may try that.
Appreciate all your help :thumbsup:
Mandy :pig:
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As well as the protein percentage look out for the protein source - animal protein is much better than cereal derived protein. Which is why a raw diet doesn't wind them up as much as people think it should.
Fowgill - well done on thinking away from Bakers. Not wanting to worry you, but saw this on face book:
Do you know what's in your dogs food......[/size]E320 - has been found to be tumour producing when fed to rats. In human studies it has been linked with uticaria, angioedema and asthma.E321 - BANNED for use in food in Japan, Romania, Sweden and Australia. The US has Banned it from being used in infant foods. E310 - BANNED from children's foods in the US because it is thought to cause the blood disorder methemoglobinemia.
E172 - BANNED in Germany.
E132 - Can cause skin sensitivity, a rash similar to nettle rash, itching, nausea, high blood pressure and breathing problems. One of the colours that the Hyperactive Children's Support Group recommends be eliminated from the diet of children. PROHIBITED in Norway.
E102 - TARTRAZINE - A trail on 76 children diagnosed as hyperactive, showed that tartrazine provoked abnormal behaviour patterns in 79% of them.
E110 - Sunset Yellow has been found to damage kidneys and adrenals when fed to laboratory rats. It has also been found to be carcinogenic when fed to animals.
E104 - One of the colours that the Hyperactive Children's Support Group recommends be eliminated from the diet of children. BANNED in Australia, Japan, Norway and the US.
E171 - BANNED in Germany.
E153 - BANNED as a food additive in the USA and suspected as a carcinogenic agent.
And which food contains all these? BAKERS COMPLETE.
Please share, this IS NOT widely known knowledge and people need to become aware.[/color]
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I use Dr John's Silver for Skye, which he's good on, and Beta Light for Skerry who has a tendency to get fat. Arran has to have James Wellbeloved as she's allergic to everything.
Yep, that German Shepherd is getting too much protein I'd say. Suggest Dr John's Silver to her?
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at one point it lunged backwards straining on the lead which is attached to a head collar (?) I couldn't help but think if anything slipped we were in trouble.
our gsd isnt aggressive but was always bonkers on a lead even tho she went to training every week for the first yr of her life. she used to have a headcollar too, and we always made sure we had a clip from the lead to the collar incase the headcollar came off.
we bought the farm 7 yrs ago when she was 18 mths old and she hasnt on a lead since. shes perfect now (but also middle-aged - that helps...lol)
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Backward straining could probably be controlled and through training the dog could walk sensibly, which this one does if you see it at a distance.
It's the ferocity it shows when anything strange is near, you, vehicles, plastic bag.
I think it's very commendable the work she's done with it and I feel for her because you have to be a dedicated dog owner to go this far, but I do think it's never going to be safe in public.
You'd make an enemy for life if you ever said anything though wouldn't you.
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But you could perhaps say, "you know how strong and lively <dog's name> is? There was something on my smallholders' forum about dogs being calmer, so easier to live with if they ate a lower protein diet - I don't know if you're interested in any more info?'
Only you know if she'd respond or be mortally offended :)
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That sounds very diplomatic, can you do it Moleskins? ::) ;)
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I would keep your nose out of criticising the dogs diet! There is no proof that because the dog is fed raw that this would upset its behaviour. Its the source of protein that affects behaviour not just percentage. Dogs fed on quality raw meat are fine. I have 4 of them, one is a foster who came before he was to be pts. He had nipped neighbours and was dog agressive. He was fed on Bakers. Now on a raw diet he is a pussy cat.
If someone came up to me and told me that all my dogs problems are because of the raw diet (which I have full researched and trialled and found to be better than any kibble), just because of what someone posted on a forum - I think I would want to deck them!
If you want to help this woman just talk to her and say you admire her for the hard work she is putting in to that dog. Then ask what you could do to help her when you meet with your dogs? Then spread that message to the neighbours.
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If someone came up to me and told me that all my dogs problems are because of the raw diet
Where was that being advocated?
I was suggesting she might be pointed to a source of discussion about it if she was interested/thought it might be helpful. She might be glad of it, she might not. If it's not offered, she doesn't have the choice. Your dogs are good on a raw diet but it doesn't mean that all are. I know there are very respected dog people (Barbara Sykes for example) who know through much experience that difficult to handle Border Collies are easier to deal with if not eating too high a protein diet.
If you want to help this woman just talk to her and say you admire her for the hard work she is putting in to that dog. Then ask what you could do to help her when you meet with your dogs? Then spread that message to the neighbours.
That too would be helpful.
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That sounds very diplomatic, can you do it Moleskins? ::) ;)
I haven't said anything up to now, I thought that was the most diplomatic I could be.
Possibly Sheps approach might be the one least likely to have her setting the dog on me ;D
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Jay kay - did you miss Moleskins post saying the dog is fed raw? If so I understand your suggestion. I don't disagree that high protein kibbles are like rocket fuel for dogs but raw isn't the same.
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our dog trainer insisted we all fed burns, which we did for 2 yrs or so, tho it was £35 a sack. burns told us to feed the fish variety to help stop her moulting but i dont know if it helped much, tho shes doesnt moult so much now shes older.
would "backwards lunging" imply fear agression?
we now feed 90% raw meat and bones, mainly cos we butcher our own animals and have loads of it...lol
barf diet is additive free so wouldnt cause hyperactivity.
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Well I've just seen this woman when I didn't have my dog with me so I had a word.
I went down the line of saying how much I admired the work she'd done with both her last dog and this one.
She's stopped feeding raw chicken as she was told it would be too high in protein and is now on James Welbeloved well the dog is not her. ;D
I did say about certain foods having this effect on dogs and she seemed to know a bit about it, she's got the dog at a dog psychologist who says it's all because the dog is frightened and nervous.
The parentage which they've gone into is a Police dog father and a show bred mother, so obviously the problem comes from the show side. ;D ;D
I did mention that perhaps James Welbeloved was still too high in protein.
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Well done :thumbsup: and at least she's thinking about diet and getting some help.
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i have 3 gsd and my big boy was very nervous when we got him. He can appear very intimidating when barking. its just a suggestion, but he does not like high vis jackets and appears more aggressive if someone is wearing reflective clothing.
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my previous collie sounded very fierce when he was nervous of some thing and the somethings were very random! ..... best example was when I'd taken him to a show. I was sat wit him (with a short lead on) when a women walked past.... he went nuts! (this being a collie show she took little notice.) .... the same thing happened when she walked past a second time. I had a sudden idea and said 'I think its your bumbag'. The women swung the bumbad out of sight and walked past again ..... Sam stayed laying down and relaxed!!
Love to have known what he was thinking!
Linda
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my previous collie sounded very fierce when he was nervous of some thing and the somethings were very random! ..... best example was when I'd taken him to a show. I was sat wit him (with a short lead on) when a women walked past.... he went nuts! (this being a collie show she took little notice.) .... the same thing happened when she walked past a second time. I had a sudden idea and said 'I think its your bumbag'. The women swung the bumbad out of sight and walked past again ..... Sam stayed laying down and relaxed!!
Love to have known what he was thinking!
Linda
our our colliex had a thing for woolly hats and even took a hat off a ladys head when she was sat on a wall. :roflanim:
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Our GSD, Gurney, was very aggressive with my border collie, Lass, ripping her face open twice in a week. She was the most subservient dog I have ever met and wouldn't say boo to a sparrow (not a goose - I wouldn't say boo to a goose - which I think encouraged him. We had him neutered and he was a different dog, very gentle and loving. In fact, when he was quite young and at nose level with my grandson, then aged 3, the lad punched him on the nose. I really thought the dog would go for him but he just shook his head and walked away.
The only time he showed any sign of aggressiveness was when we were away over night once. When this happened, our neighbour would go in several times a day, using the side door, and walk the dogs and feed them. Another friend would go to see to the goat, using the front door. this particular time I Had given her a side door key and Gurney growled and showed his teeth at her. I am sure it was because she came in the "wrong door".