The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: Kitchen Cottage on October 05, 2012, 07:08:29 pm
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I've been desparately trying to be scientific about these piglets. I've weighed their food, measured them and they are in good conditions.
Tomorrow they are 24 weeks.
According to the berkshire rare breeds chart i'm using they should be between 61-69 kilos at this stage. I measured today and they come up at 64=66 kilos.
They are smack bang in the middle.
My problem is that the rare breed chart has them putting on 8-10 kilos every two weeks at this stage. These were well ahead at week 22 and have put on 2 kilos in two weeks.
They are outdoors in a paddock which had lots of nettles and I'd say they were 50% through clearingthis. They don't really seem to root except where they feed, mainly they have scoffed all the leaves and left stems.
They are under lean to shelter (a very heath robinson affair) but have plenty of straw and all sleep together.
They are fed finishers pellets at 19% protein and I actually think they are running to fat a little.
They were absolutely beautiful piglets, large and lovely, and are still an even litter, but I was expecting them to do better.
The gilt I kept with their mum, who is completing with a grown sow for food, seems a bit bigger than them!
I have them another month and would welcome some advice on what, if anything I can do to encourage some growth.
Tomorrow I'm going to have another go at the field shelter and I'll move their food hat to somewhere cleaner so they don't root around in the mudfor the food that falls out of the sombrero (I don't know what the metal feeder I have is really callled).
I have the until 8th November and anything that might get a couple of extra kilos of meat on them would be gratefully received.
I am in Essex in clay and conditions deteriorate badly in winter to I don't really overwinter except charlotte and now domino because they have purpose built sty's. Its just too hard for pigs outside here, the clay sucks down their trotters so that each step is an effort.
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I should say they are all wormed and there is no evidence of worms in the field
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I am so not an expert but I have a few rules of thumb.
If they're not rootling widely, I'm overfeeding them.
All mine go on sow (non-lactating) rolls at 16-18 weeks and none (OSB and Saddlebak) get more than 4lbs per head per day even then, unless the weather's evil and they can't rootle outside and I can't supply fruit and veg. I did give one lot cows' whey and potatoes along with the 4lbs/head/day - and they were too fat.
If they're not rootling widely, I'm overfeeding them.
Bread is for treats; it's basically wheat and they get their wheat in their pellets. If I had a good source of good bread, I'd work out a proper replacement value and cut their pellets accordingly.
If they're not rootling widely, I'm overfeeding them.
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They are getting 1.93kilos and they are starting to lookfat so I'm going to cut back a little. This evening i gave 1.5lbs instead of the normal 1.92.... I'll keep this up for a week.
I can't feed them anymore to make them grow,.... they are on higher protein.... what else can I do?
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What's the weather like where you are? It's freezing (literally so overnight) here, and wet, so they're using up loads of energy keeping warm. When their footing is wet, their straw gets wet so they use body heat to warm it every time they lie down.
The other thing is how much are they exercising? If they're lying about, they'll put on more fat and less muscle than if they're running about. Although the commercial guys keep them warm and static, so ???
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Our first pigs were Berkshires and i thought that as they were a smaller pig they were better pork pigs if sluaghtered smaller ie 65~70 kilos ish larger they tend to lay back fat
Have to say still believe they were the best tasting pork :thumbsup:
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Oh..... I daren't say this..... they aren't Berkshires. I'm using their generic rare breed charts. They are Essex Pigs or possibly Saddlebacks if the Essex breed doesn't exist. :roflanim:that issue has caused controversy around these parts!
Weather has been awful here, but they still spend all day rooting. Its not been a great summer and that sill certainly have held them back!
Thats why I'm going to do their lean to again and ram it full with straw.... its all wind and rain here.
I can't think of what to do except improve their housing. I could bring them into the stable for the last month..... but that would be a bit grim for them!
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They are very active pigs... they spend the day running around
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I would be a bit careful feeding them the higher protein feed because of them putting too much fat on. All the breeds are a bit different, i can only go off Tamworths and Hampshires. The hams being a modern breed grow fast and you can feed as much as you like without them getting fat, they are well designed for fast muscle growth. Tamworths are slower maturing so don't grow as fast and being a traditional breed will lay down the fat if we're not careful with the feed. A cross of the two breeds has the hybrid vigor so they finish faster like the hams but the carcass has more fat than just pure hampshire.
I cant really help with how much to feed as we do it by eye :-\ but do know all the pigs are different and are ready when they're ready.
They will taste fine regardless of size :)
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I'm a convert to Tammy's. I had two as fatteners and the meat was amazing. They were much faster growing than the Essex/Saddlebacks are.
I do think they are in danger of running to fat.... and the Essex do like their fat! so the food is going to have to be cut...
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KC,
You seem to be creating much angst for yourself. Pigs are like people, they don't grow to formulas or charts, these are at best guides or rules of thumb to get you into the right area.
It is just like if you fed two children the same food, they will grow at different rates, and a lazier one might put on more fat than its brother who runs around and plays.
And you can't say that different breeds grow at different rates except at a population level. This would be like saying EVERY American is fat, Americans are at a population level larger than Europeans, but there are plenty of American individuals who are not fat, just as there are plenty of fat Europeans.
As pigs grow they will have times when they put on growth and times when they consolidate. These are not the same times for every pig.
The only way to get closer to uniform growth is to have a temperature and humidity controlled indoor environment, buy highly specialised hybrid pigs that are scientifically and selectively bred to be as like each other as possible, to not allow the pigs room to move much, feed different formulations almost every week of their life, feed lots of antibiotics to ensure no health issues, and even then you have pen with lost of variation within a range, but a good average weight over lots of pens to meet market conditions.
You have free range rare breed pigs designed to cope with lots of variation in both environment and feed– chill and enjoy them growing as nature intended !
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In truth. the reason i am so concerned is that I have oversold my produce. I need to get 50 kilo of meat out of these pigsin order to have enough for me and mine and a minimum of 40 kilos to satisfy my oders.... should be alright but I am trying to learn better techniques this year rather than just shove them in a field and feed them.
I agree about growth. What I don't get on the berkshire chart though is they go from putting on 2 to 4 kilo's fortnightly to 10 kilos on that chart!
Is there a natural growth spurt around weeks 24 to 28? Why does it go upward so quickly?
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What a sensible and refreshing post from Oaklandpigs ( above). Well said !
Martin
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So there is nothing I can change unless I want to shove up on the sofa and switch on the central heating.
I'll just relax. I'm pretty sure it will be alright and I'll just go by eye and try not to let them get fat and keep the straw topped up... they'll be what they will be :)
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KC, I am totally new to all of this, having just sent my first couple of pigs off to the abattoir.
I too was using the Berkshire chart as an indication but realised that mine (OSB's) were never going to live up to it. I chucked it out the window instead of stressing myself so much.
Sally
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And your bacon looks fab, Sally :thumbsup:, absolutely fab.
What were your deadweights and backfat measurements, do you know?
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Sally, I knew my pigs wern't big, one in particular, as she had been small when we got her. Trust me to choose by cuteness ;D
I don't know their individual dead weight but together they were 104 kilos dead weight. I didn't think to ask about the backfat measurements. Will do better next time :fc:
Sally
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So what meat weight did you get BW?
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Now that I have finished the sausages and bacon, I have been able to put together some measurements and weights specially for you, Kitchen Cottage, as it was you who introduced me to the Berkshire chart earlier this year and I have been using it since, as last year's pigs were far too fat in my opinion.
I have Tamworths and Saddlebacks, they live in woodland although they have little undergrowth left to eat, and are fed ordinary 16% nuts all the way through from weaning to slaughter, and as per the chart, are now getting 1.93 kgs each per day as oppose to approx 2.2 kgs each last year. They are wormed and have ample space to move around, although in the torrential rains of this year they spend far too much time inside doing nothing. Occasionally they are fed fruit and veg instead of nuts, at a replacement rate of 4 veg: 1 nuts.
Last Monday we sent the largest SB and Tamworth gilts to slaughter aged 28 weeks, they both came back with 19 mm fat, a good improvement on last year, and their deadweight was 69.8 kgs and 62.7 kgs respectively.
We do our own butchery and about half our pork joints are boned and rolled, the rest not, and all the surplus bones, spare fat and skin, trotters and head almost always go into the waste pile. For the Saddleback we ended up with 42.6 kgs of meat, 9.5 kgs of sausage meat, 15.6 kgs of waste and 2.1 kgs unaccounted for. The Tamworth produced 42.6 kgs of meat, 3.6 kgs sausage meat, 5.1 kgs head meat and fat for brawn, 8.8 kgs of waste and 2.6 kgs unaccounted for.
I also have some tape measurements for these two (G for girth and L for length, in metres), although the length measurement is questionable, mostly too long, as I can only do them when they have their heads down eating, which makes the length anything from 6 to 10 cm longer than if they have their heads up. I have used the formula G x G x L x 69.3 to estimate their live weight:
26 weeks: SB G 1.02 L 1.22 Wt 87.96 kg Tam G 0.99 L 1.17 Wt 79.47 kgs
27 weeks: SB G 1.03 L 1.24 Wt 91.16 kg Tam G 0.99 L 1.19 Wt 80.83 kgs
28 weeks: SB G 1.04 L 1.28 Wt 95.94 kg Tam G 1.02 L 1.22 Wt 87.96 kgs
As I said, all these measurements have to be taken with a pinch of salt, particularly due to the inaccurate lengths, but if you multiply these by 0.72, you end up with dead weights close to what they actually were. Nevertheless you will see that they hardly changed shape at all over this fortnight, and there doesn't seem to be anything to suggest a growth spurt in terms of their tape measurements.
For comparison, our two Tamworths last year were slaughtered at 30.5 weeks and dead weights were 75.1 kgs (gilt) and 84.3 kgs (boy), but their fat levels were 24 and 29 mm respectively. The Saddlebacks were slaughtered at 31.5 weeks and their dead weights were 77.8 kgs (gilt), 82.7 and 87.4 kgs (2 boys), with fat levels of 28, 25 and 24 mm respectively. So both heavier but also far fatter. The reason these pigs were slaughtered 3 weeks later than this year's is that they just didn't look big enough at the time, but with hindsight this was probably a mistake, especially if all all they did in those last 3 weeks was put on extra fat rather than extra flesh.
Two things I should like to point out, just to make matters even more confusing. None of our pigs, this year or last year, seemed to be remotely over-fat to us while they were alive, despite the fact I have never been able to "feel" the backbone on any of my pigs, even when they are as young as 4 week old pre-weaners. They all look to me, this year and last, long, lean and quite normal sized. It is all very well saying "feed by eye", but I don't think there is really that much scope for changing their weights/fat significantly in the last 3 or 4 weeks - one needs to have a programme to work to for a whole season, and if that doesn't produce the results, try a wholescale lower or higher feeding regime for the next batch of pigs.
The other thing that is significant is that within any one litter of pigs, the same breed, fed exactly the same amount from birth to slaughter, there can be as much as 10 to 15 kgs difference in their final dead weights, so there are other factors at play as well as how much they are given to eat. Like chickens, there is definitely a pecking order amongst pigs, and some of them never compete as well as their siblings for the available grub and end up much lighter at the end.
This data has been taken from my copious spreadsheets I have here, so if you want any further detailed info, do get in touch. Do hope this has been of some help; I too like to know how much goes in and also what you get out of it in the end, rather than relying on intuition alone as mine is just not that good. Tamsaddle
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Tamsaddle - some great data there, and thanks for taking the effort to compile - I'm sure others will like me find it interesting.
You make some good key points.
Feeding by eye - we recommend feeding by "feel" not eye - as you dead right you cannot see fat. I find your comment about never being able to feel the backbone interesting - I regularly check both our saddles and the occasional TW and am able to feel backbone on both.
Weighing by tape works quite well for growing pigs, but as you rightly say it is an estimate. You point on measuring with head level is spot on.
Dieting in the last two weeks (half rations) will take off some over-fat, but you are quite right that it won't fix over-feeding throughout their growth, bit like eating what you feel like all year, and expecting to get into that swimsuit on Holiday after two weeks control!
Your final point about variance within a litter is a great one to reemphasise, given identical conditions, some will be bigger than others though a combination of birthweight, teat selection, willingness to battle for rations, any disease knockback - never even throughout litter, and some that scour just plough through and some are affected - and probably many other factors !
Great piece of work TS :)
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Thank you so much for this Tamsaddle!! ;D
You should have seen me last night at 11 (I finished work late) in my field with a pig tape and a head torch measuring and trying to feel back fat on my little piggies in the rain.... I LOVED it after a day in the office ;D
Well, I am afraid I am being drawn to Tammys and had two before which were just the most perfect meat but I did nothing about measuring etc so I don't know how they got there....
Anyway, at 24.5 weeks these are now showing at 63 68 kilos liveweight on the pig tape and about 5 kilos more measuring (they are long backed) so I don't think they will make your deadweight. As a litter they were born "chunky" 5 of them were very wide backed. They still look like that. They have stayed a very even litter and I don't really have the facilities to split the two smaller groups.
Being essexsaddlebacks :innocent:I understand that they are prone to fat. At the moment they have noshed through 1/2 acre of nettles, which I understand are very high in protein so I've done all that I can do.... cannot do anything more. Not a thing (except keep them strawed up).
They are going 8th November because the 10th is the only day my pig peeps are all around to get their pigs in baskets (done by a butcher) and I can't store 320 kilos of meat,,,, even if that were legal. My LOVELY butcher lends me his refridgerated van to make my deliveries and I make him cake fairly regularly cos he's a neighbour. He'll retire soon and I suspect the shop will close so what i'll do then I don't really know.
Despite everything, I suspect I'm going to end up with slightly smaller pigs than I'd like. I'm going to look at housing next year.... I have two purpose built stys (built myself with materials I found here ;D)which are warm, but I use two paddocks and only have a field shelter in the other, so one of my winter tasks is..... the TAS pig sty design ;D ;D I've been doing odds and sods of woodwork this year and am getting more confident (probably falsely so)
That was so helpful and I learnt a lot... I don't know however how come others have 15 kilos deadweight on me!
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lots of useful info here for me Thanks!
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Tamsaddle, that information is fab! I'm trying to collate the same to work out my plans for this year. It is definitely worth doing as with Feed prices being as they are, any over feeding or keeping the pigs for too long is a strict no no for us. (weve got to make our venture work as a small scale business).
The abattoir and butcher I use always emphasises the need to get Rare Breeds in earlier than most people think. In their experience, too many people bring their carcasses in about 3 -4 weeks too late or have fed up too much in the latter stages and the pigs have just layered down fat. They think that cross breeds are even more prone to this, and have stressed the need to look and measure very carefully at pigs from 18/ 20 weeks. I guess in their eyes, the fat issue is absolute key to carcasses (more so than final weights) as running a shop they wouldn't be able to sell anything too fatty.
I too feed only on a low protein diet (crude value at 13.5) only giving grower feed post weaning for a month. My feed supplier is now recommending this feed (basic sow rolls) to all their rare breed customers.
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i feed 16% protein to all our pigs with the exception of creep feed for the piglets pre weaning thats at 22% we never feed grower feed to our fattners and never feed more than 4lb of feed a day. slaughter times can vary from breeed to breed x breeds have been hit and mis for us so after a couple of bad x's decided to go for just pure breed, this works better for us as you can sell your produce as rare breed ....... rather than just home bred pork. we have tried lower protein feed over the years but find the 16% gives a good carcase with a quicker finish time so also works out cost effective, i know we all have our own preference but this is one that works for us.
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Regarding measurements, KC, I am not quite sure what a "pig tape measure" does, having never used one. Are you sure it is meant to calculate live weight, not dead weight? It would be really interesting to learn what your girth and length measurements are in metres or centimetres, then it would be possible to compare the two sets of pigs. It will also be useful if you measure them a few days before they go off, then compare that with their actual dead weights when you know what they are.
In general, we have found over our 5 years that female pigs are usually smaller, and often quite a lot fatter, than boy pigs. Also that Tamworths usually have higher back fat than Saddlebacks, but I think this is probably due to the eye of the loin being smaller in a Tamworth than a Saddleback, so relatively speaking you notice more fat. The crucial thing, it seems to me, for getting a nice lean pig without too much fat is to have a very long back (which you say yours have, excellent). In the last two we sent off, their girth measurement was about the same, but the Saddleback was several inches longer than the Tamworth, and came out with much leaner meat overall. Next week we are sending off two more Saddleback girls - again, one is much longer than the other, and it will be interesting to see how they come out. These will be 30 weeks old, and one is now almost exactly the same size as her sister was 2 weeks ago.
As you are sending yours off on 8 November KC they still have another 4 weeks to go, and may well have grown quite a lot bigger by then when they will be 28.5 weeks old. Keep up with the measuring each week - it will be incredibly useful information for you when you have your next litter.
Good luck whatever - Tamsaddle
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Your last post prompted me to run outside and feed my babies some nuts in case I'd been doing it totally wrong :roflanim:
This is a pig measuring tape
http://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/Weight-Measuring-Tape-For-Cattle-Pigs/productinfo/WEIGHTTAPE/ (http://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/Weight-Measuring-Tape-For-Cattle-Pigs/productinfo/WEIGHTTAPE/)
Mine is different and quite old. Its for cattle and pigs and on the pig scale you measure their girth and there is a liveweight and deadweight figure.
I've just been outside and they come up between 65 to 72 liveweight which is 53 to 57 deadweight on the same chart, so some had had a spurt.
I'm taking the liveweight from the tape, because the deadweight seems too high. Its 81% which seems too high.
I think the figures are less reliable than doing the whole thing and measuring the back length and I come up with a bigger figure on this.
They are long backed and have a few weeks growing so we'll see how they go!
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Oh and some people have INCREDIBLY LARGE pigs... my pig tape goes up to 294 kilos live weight... thats some pig :roflanim:
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Mine is different and quite old. Its for cattle and pigs and on the pig scale you measure their girth and there is a liveweight and deadweight figure.
I think the figures are less reliable than doing the whole thing and measuring the back length and I come up with a bigger figure on this.
They are long backed and have a few weeks growing so we'll see how they go!
Looking at the link you posted, I think our tape is the same as yours. If you do a calculation based on girth and length etc I think the result is more reliable than the tape measure ..... but IF the girth reading = the length reading then I believe the result will be the same because that is the assumption that was made when setting out the measurement to weight ratio on the tape measure.
Pete
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Not meaning to hijack the thread but I measure length between ears to root of tail and girth around shoulders, multiply them then divide by 12 if the pig is lean, 11 if average, 10 if fat. I find this to be fairly reliable. I get charged extra for certain weight categories so I try to get it ahem.... Correct :innocent: :-J
Forgot to mention this gives live weight in lbs. Although thinking that it might be time for me to start getting my head round the kilo thing. Funny thing for me is, the abattoir talks in lbs, when the pig goes in live...but by the time it comes out of the cutting room it is kgs.
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This is the method I use, its taken from:
http://www.thepigsite.com/articles/541/weighing-a-pig-without-a-scale (http://www.thepigsite.com/articles/541/weighing-a-pig-without-a-scale)
Obtain a fabric measuring tape or a piece of string to use as a measure. If using string mark the dimensions on the string and then measure the dimensions using a steel tape measure.
Place the tape/string under the pig just behind the front legs and measure the circumference of the pigs girth in metres. This measurement is known as the Heart Girth
Then measure the Length of the pig along its back from the base of its ears to the base of its tail, again in metres.
Square the Heart Girth to get the Girth Result.
Now Multiply the Girth Result by the Length and MULTIPLY by 69.3
You now have the weight of your pig in Kg.
Example
Porky Pig has a Heart Girth of 1.27 meters and a Length of 1.02 meters.
Squaring the Heart Girth (1.27 x 1.27) = 1.6129 = Girth Result
Multiply the Girth Result (1.6129) by the Length (1.02) and MULTIPLY by 69.3 = 114 Kg.
Hope that helps,
Pete