The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: Alastair on October 04, 2012, 10:59:31 am

Title: Anyone had to deal with Epithliogenesis Imperfecta?
Post by: Alastair on October 04, 2012, 10:59:31 am

Our large black sow has just had her second litter. Our experience with the first litter went well and pretty much by the book and she was a very good mum so with that experience behind us we were less nervous this time (well the missus was, I'm always pessimistic).
This time was pretty much the same with a couple of exceptions. Mum was good enough to wait for a dry day and not start until 9am :) However the first piglet had arrived before we got to her and my wife was distressed to note the piglet was missing a roughly circular section of skin about 3cm along the length of the spine and 4cm wide down the side of the back towards the right back leg. Our first thought was that mum must have trodden on him but there was no bleeding ???. However the third piglet arrived with much the same problem although the patch of missing skin was much smaller. It wasn't until later we noticed a third piglet had what appearred to be a small healed scar on its right side towards the rear leg. The litter was 12 in total of which one was DOA.
I phoned the chap who we'd originally got mum from to see if he'd seen anything similar. He's been really great and is always happy to talk over any questions or problems but this was not one he'd come across before.
Both piglets were active and keen to feed but it was obvious the damaged areas were painful as they let out more of a squeal than normal when their siblings clambered over them. We bathed the damaged areas and sprayed with antiseptic, which must have stung :(
A quick check on the internet bought up Epithiliogenesis imperfecta a.k.a. Aplasia cutis congenita. It matches exactly with what we saw both from written description and pictures (not for the squeamish!!). On the positive side, the pictures showed significant and almost complete healing on a piglet over the course of 30 days, which had damage similar in size to the more badly effected of our two
Rang the local farm animals vet who was aware of the condition but had never come across it. His suggestion was for the more badly effected one to be knocked on the head as it was unlikely to survive being so prone to infection but that with TLC the other might make it.
This morning all 11 piglets were still well and we decided, hopefully rightly, to give both the damaged chaps a chance. Going to try daily bathing the damaged area in warm water, a quick spray of oxyvet and a layer of barrier cream.
So my question is, has any one come across this problem and have any advice? Are we doing the right thing?

Title: Re: Anyone had to deal with Epithliogenesis Imperfecta?
Post by: Fowgill Farm on October 04, 2012, 11:05:55 am

See this topic on GOS forum thinks its the same thing.
Might be some help,
 
 One of our sows farrowed last night - she had ten altogether, but numbers 5 and 6 literally came out together and one of them is missing part of its skin. I've never seen or experienced this before. The skin is missing fom its back from behind its front legs to its tail all along the top of its back. There are no ragged edges, its as if it just didn't grow there. What is left is the raw membrane covering the muscles etc. I have to say we didn't think it would survive, but of course being very tenatious it has suckled well and is still with us this morning. This area has dried over and not looking so raw. Has anyone else experienced this, if so all advice would be gratefully received as to what we should do.

Jas (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=55) United Kingdom 100 Posts		(http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_posticon.gif)Posted - 02 Jul 2009 :  22:48:30  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_profile.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=55)  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_email.gif) (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/javascript:openWindow('pop_mail.asp?id=55'))  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_reply_topic.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=1912&TOPIC_ID=1166&FORUM_ID=20)   I have only seen this in a very small area, it usually grows leaving scar tissue. Your piglet may survive but will probably have a scared back which may affect the carcass.   Judith
littlethorneybank (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=56) United Kingdom 46 Posts		(http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_posticon.gif)Posted - 03 Jul 2009 :  11:50:14  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_profile.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=56)  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_email.gif) (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/javascript:openWindow('pop_mail.asp?id=56'))  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_reply_topic.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=1915&TOPIC_ID=1166&FORUM_ID=20)   Thanks for that Judith-he's still thriving really well apart from taking a bit part in Hannibal Lecter. Had some great advice from Mandy Garbutt, so thanks everyone for your replies.
Eve (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=1055) 8 Posts		(http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_posticon.gif)Posted - 28 Oct 2010 :  20:12:55  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_profile.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=1055)  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_email.gif) (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/javascript:openWindow('pop_mail.asp?id=1055'))  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_reply_topic.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=3465&TOPIC_ID=1166&FORUM_ID=20)   How did he look after a few weeks / months?   Edited by - Eve on 28 Oct 2010 20:20:08
[email protected] (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=14) United Kingdom 480 Posts		(http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_posticon.gif)Posted - 29 Oct 2010 :  12:58:14  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_profile.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=14)  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_email.gif) (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/javascript:openWindow('pop_mail.asp?id=14'))  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_homepage.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/mysite/fowgillfarm)  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_edit_topic.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/post.asp?method=Edit&REPLY_ID=3478&TOPIC_ID=1166&FORUM_ID=20)  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_reply_topic.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=3478&TOPIC_ID=1166&FORUM_ID=20)  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_delete_reply.gif) (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/javascript:openWindow('pop_delete.asp?mode=Reply&REPLY_ID=3478&TOPIC_ID=1166&FORUM_ID=20'))   Eve I have some pictures of my little chap who had a similar problem, will try to post them here for you to see. He was christened Wonky and was raised sucessfully to pork weight and was even a star at an Open Farm Sunday event with his runty brother Doug!!(http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_smile_big.gif)   Regards Mandy Garbutt Fowgill Farm
[email protected] (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=14) United Kingdom 480 Posts		(http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_posticon.gif)Posted - 02 Nov 2010 :  09:35:02  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_profile.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=14)  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_email.gif) (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/javascript:openWindow('pop_mail.asp?id=14'))  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_homepage.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/mysite/fowgillfarm)  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_edit_topic.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/post.asp?method=Edit&REPLY_ID=3497&TOPIC_ID=1166&FORUM_ID=20)  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_reply_topic.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=3497&TOPIC_ID=1166&FORUM_ID=20)  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_delete_reply.gif) (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/javascript:openWindow('pop_delete.asp?mode=Reply&REPLY_ID=3497&TOPIC_ID=1166&FORUM_ID=20'))   Pictures of wonky as promised This first one was at 8wks when he went into the paddock with his brothers and sisters, he was half their size. http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/fowgillfarm/P2280083.jpg (http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/fowgillfarm/P2280083.jpg) and this one is about 4wks before he went off to meet his maker, he grew to a good size and was a right little bully boy with his brothers who were considerably larger than him. http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/fowgillfarm/Image137.jpg (http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/fowgillfarm/Image137.jpg)   Regards Mandy Garbutt Fowgill Farm   Edited by - [email protected] on 02 Nov 2010 09:36:01
Jas (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=55) United Kingdom 100 Posts		(http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_posticon.gif)Posted - 02 Nov 2010 :  13:26:39  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_profile.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=55)  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_email.gif) (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/javascript:openWindow('pop_mail.asp?id=55'))  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_reply_topic.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=3500&TOPIC_ID=1166&FORUM_ID=20)   It looks in that position as if it would not effect the carcass, was that the case?   Judith   Edited by - Jas on 02 Nov 2010 14:11:39
[email protected] (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=14) United Kingdom 480 Posts		(http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_posticon.gif)Posted - 03 Nov 2010 :  09:17:55  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_profile.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=14)  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_email.gif) (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/javascript:openWindow('pop_mail.asp?id=14'))  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_homepage.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/mysite/fowgillfarm)  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_edit_topic.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/post.asp?method=Edit&REPLY_ID=3506&TOPIC_ID=1166&FORUM_ID=20)  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_reply_topic.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=3506&TOPIC_ID=1166&FORUM_ID=20)  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_delete_reply.gif) (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/javascript:openWindow('pop_delete.asp?mode=Reply&REPLY_ID=3506&TOPIC_ID=1166&FORUM_ID=20'))   Hi Judith No the carcass was not affected at all. The area of skin always looked fragile and did occaisonally crack and bleed a little but nothing that a good dousing of wound powder or a daub of zinc & castor oil cream couldn't cure! When he was born we never thought he would survive but he proved us very wrong!(http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_smile.gif)   Regards Mandy Garbutt Fowgill Farm
Eve (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=1055) 8 Posts		(http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_posticon.gif)Posted - 04 Nov 2010 :  19:49:07  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_profile.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=1055)  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_email.gif) (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/javascript:openWindow('pop_mail.asp?id=1055'))  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_reply_topic.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=3508&TOPIC_ID=1166&FORUM_ID=20)   Thanks, Mandy. Poor little thing, glad he managed so well!
CarrHallPigs (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=588) United Kingdom 389 Posts		(http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_posticon.gif)Posted - 25 Nov 2010 :  11:40:06  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_profile.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=588)  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_email.gif) (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/javascript:openWindow('pop_mail.asp?id=588'))  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_homepage.gif) (http://carrhallpigs.jimdo.com/)  (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_reply_topic.gif) (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=3546&TOPIC_ID=1166&FORUM_ID=20)   glad topic here, we've just had our first encounter of this out of our dolly sow who produced 14 piglets, the one with a patch on side like yours sadly died, got squashed (perhaps mother nature doing job), but I saw another in the litter who's back leg was scarred the same, looks like they were squashed up in the womb and kind of joined a bit with their skin, hard to explain know what mean but the mark on the one that died side was just the same shape and size as this one's leg! the leg has healed over, can't quite tell which he was now!! (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/forum/icon_smile.gif)   http://carrhallpigs.jimdo.com/ (http://carrhallpigs.jimdo.com/)

Sorry about the printing out just how it copied! We found as i say above that wound powder and sudocrem/zinc & castor oil cream was all that was needed, just keep a check on their siblings picking on them.
HTh
mandy :pig:
 

Title: Re: Anyone had to deal with Epithliogenesis Imperfecta?
Post by: Sylvia on October 04, 2012, 11:29:04 am

Is this a genetic disorder? I know little or nothing about congenital pig diseases but hope all goes well for the little chaps :fc:

Title: Re: Anyone had to deal with Epithliogenesis Imperfecta?
Post by: Alastair on October 04, 2012, 11:40:16 am

Mandy,

Thanks for that, it's certainly made me feel much more positive. If they make it through the normal danger zone of the next 48 hours I think they have a very good chance.

Sylvia,

Yes, the little info there is indicates it's a recessive genetic trait which, if I've understood correctly, means that if both mum and dad carry the trait then there's a 1 in 4 chance of a piglet being affected to some degree. It also seems to only affect males so it could by X chromosome related.

Title: Re: Anyone had to deal with Epithliogenesis Imperfecta?
Post by: Fowgill Farm on October 04, 2012, 11:43:57 am

Glad to help, interesting it being genetic, we don't have the sow that was our 'wonky' pigs mum but we do have a daughter & grandaughter but no reoccurrence of the problem touch wood anyway sure lots of tlc will see them through  :fc:
All the best
mandy :pig:

Title: Re: Anyone had to deal with Epithliogenesis Imperfecta?
Post by: Berkshire Boy on October 04, 2012, 06:24:26 pm

You can buy spray on skin, that might be worth a try. It might help to keep out infection.

Title: Re: Anyone had to deal with Epithliogenesis Imperfecta? - UPDATE
Post by: Alastair on October 17, 2012, 11:04:31 am

Hi all,
A quick update. Spent the first week applying Terramycin and sudacrem daily. However the piglet with the worse damage was clearly getting weaker and weaker and after the first day or so didn't want to suckle. When it got to the point that it was almost too weak to move I took the hard decision and dispatched it as quickly as I could. Still makes me feel horrible, but I letting it die slowly wasn't an option.
On the positive side, his brother, who had a much smaller degree of damage, seems to be well on the mend. The skin is growing back over the wound. He's now twice the size he was and the wound is half the size it was. I'm still applying sudacrem every morning but he spends so much time running round the ark and wrestling with his brothers and sisters that it's worn off 15 minutes later. At this rate I expect it to have healed over completely in the next couple of weeks or so. In the long term I don't think it will be a problem at all although it has given him an odd appearance, looks like he's done his belt up too tight :)

Title: Re: Anyone had to deal with Epithliogenesis Imperfecta?
Post by: Fowgill Farm on October 17, 2012, 11:21:40 am

Well done alistair both for persevering with the survivor and making the right descion about his brother. :hug:
Glad your boy is on the mend :fc:
All the best
mandy :pig: