The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: RUSTYME on September 21, 2012, 12:46:26 pm
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For any that wish to have a say on the subject of hanging .
This thread won't be closed by me , even if everyone disagrees with me , whether they be leftwing or right !
I , like most people , have views . I am prepared to make my views known and defend them , fight my corner as it were .
I fully accept that others will differ in view and outlook , and although i may defend my view firmly , that is part of debate , i will always at least listen to others points even if i disagree with them .
On the subject of hanging , i will not change my view , even if i were outnumbered 1000 to 1 , but , i would defend the right of all the 1000 to have their view and their say , if they so wish .
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Well, you're not likely to be outnumbered 1000 to 1 because there are a number of us on here who don't think hanging should be brought back.
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Thats right Lesley .
It can be a very emotive subject , but one that is unlikely to be changed anytime soon , thankfully .
Funny thing , as i type this , one of the questions on Any Questions is should the death penalty be brought back .
One of the answers stated that as long as we are in the EU , we cannot have it , as the eu forbids any member to have the death penalty !
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So there is some good in belonging to the EU.
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Well it definitely proves who we are actually 'ruled' by !
The name of the last to be hung in the former uk should be Freedom !
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The problem is this, we ( the public ) are largely in favour of capital punishment. However, the politicians are tied due to Europe and whichever party brought it back would themselves be hung, drawn and quartered on the day it went wrong.
In the meantime we have 'justice' in that some who kill are released after (say) 7 yrs whilst other high profile prisoners are not.
I'm not in favour of one category of killer being punished more severely than another. i.e. Killing a policeman is different to killing me. Then again how do you deal with a wife who kills her abusive husband or a husband who kills his terminally I'll wife?
Not a very easy one to unravel, the public may be happy with dumping certain criminals on a remote island and leaving them to get on with it. This would satisfy the desire for 'punishment' in that it wouldn't be an easy life, it wouldn't cost us a lot etc.
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Ooooo that don't work , the buggers survive and come back , Australia !
Devils Island was another one .
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Rusty - can we assume ( as the above posts are not clear) that you would like a return to the death penalty for murder? Any other crimes?
What about the freedom to kill a neighbour or burgular for stealling your spuds?
Recently in France a chap shot and killed his neighbour ( described in the paper as a known thief and heavy drinker) for stealling his truffles. He was not charged !!! Justice?
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I don't think Rusty would like to see a return to the death penalty - its quite clear on the other thread.
I was about to post when I realised it had been closed - hadn't realised that you could close your own thread, actually.
Like most people, I am not in favour of a return to the death penalty either.
Its a shame that the tragic murders of two policewomen are jumped on as porpaganda for the "hang 'em, flog 'em" brigade.
I do find the notion that people who are not in favour of state sponsored murder are somehow 'ultra-left' mildly amusing to say the least. As I recall the far left has a fondness for tanks...and gulags.... :P
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Just to make it clear why I closed the other thread, 175 views, but only 17 votes, The thread died of appathy, so 158 viewers couldn't care less either way . I suspect the same applies to politics.
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I read the other thread with great interest but didn't vote, because I know it's pointless voting.
I might have gone back, having read the debate and voted at a later stage.
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I suppose it's a case of if someone murdered some family member or close friend I'd look for revenge.
The pain that people must feel everyday waking up and again living the hell of a loved one being killed by another person would take some handleling. Even more so when a few years later the killer is back out on the streets living a life.
If you see on the news reports of murder that is just another senseless killing, that and daily pictures of maimed and killed people in a far off land you get used to it.
The killer of the two girls and two others besides should swing.
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Tizaala - I think personally that you are wrong to assume that non-voters "couldn't care less". It is in my opinion a very difficult subject and not easy for some to decide upon the right answer. I have read with interest but not voted. I can see the point in arguments coming from both sides. ??? Not voted in my case for the very reason that .... I do care very much.
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I do care too but don't always get involoved in the most emotive threads so i will now;
I'm not sure about capital punishment and i know that sounds daft but it's like this, if one of my family was being hurt i would have no qualms about shooting the b***er, but i'm not sure i could flick the switch on the chair or give a lethal injection in cold blood looking that person straight in the eye.
It's easy to make a decision and walk away and let someone else do the dirty deed but if i were on the jury i would have to actually vote to condem that person then there's always the risk of, what if they were innocent, i would have to live with that too. I know that sounds cowardly but i'm just not sure i could do it. A prison term if sensible, is punishment if life, actually means life.
I don't agree with all the perks they have in prison, and some of the terms given out are laughable.
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Feldar - agree with what you say. :thumbsup: It is so difficult and if you think of what victims families must go through and think about your own loved ones .... do the culprits deserve to live? But then, if the verdict were by some chance wrong. :o You have also committed an awful crime in wrongly taking a life.
I would like to see convicted murderers having no access to the outside world, media, etc. And expected to do some form of work to earn their keep.
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I would like to see convicted murderers having no access to the outside world, media, etc. And expected to do some form of work to earn their keep.
How are they going to get to the polling station if they have no access to the outside world and any work will be at the minimum wage which many on the outside are on.
Difference with the ones on the outside is they have to pay their bills.
Not my choice but the EU will have it that way, won't they.
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Just to make it clear why I closed the other thread, 175 views, but only 17 votes, The thread died of appathy, so 158 viewers couldn't care less either way . I suspect the same applies to politics.
I didn't vote but not because of appathy. I don't believe there is a clear cut answer and the voting only allowed for yes or no
Sally
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I wouldnt have voted because I didn't agree with the premise "guilty beyond any doubt". Ergo, for me it was a straw poll anyway. I wouldn't have prisoners doing paid work, because all it leafs to is private companies cosying up to HM Govt for some cheap labour. Labour that were it not given to prisoners, would mean jobs for non crimnals outside of prison paid at the proper rate.
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Shutting the other thread "because no one cares" smacks of petulance to me, and I hesitate to say that because I have no personal issues with anyone here.
I am crap at making black-and-white decisions; I much prefer to read and discuss and slowly draw to a conclusion. It was just getting interesting!
On the one hand, we as a civilised (!) society can and MUST be better than the hordes baying for blood.
On the other hand there are several people I would like to see strung up - but that is my own petty vengeance speaking.
Something fundamental needs to change in our attitude to crime and criminals. How often is the "bad boy" seen as exciting? I'd be more inclined to bring back the stocks than the gallows. A few buckets of fish heads might cure the casual yob of his/her swagger...
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'Caring' for or incarcerating people that break the (your extreme ideas of lawbreakers) law is the price we have to pay for not having anarchy in the streets.
You have to think that one day if you we did bring back capital punishment for breaking the law - they might just invent a law that you would break.
Law is supposed to be emotive - your not supposed to think of the cost - you cant just kill someone if they break the law - no-matter how hanous the crime - thats where law steps in and emotions step out.
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As someone with more than a bit of experience in the criminal justice system I can honestly say I think the law is an ass; HOWEVER I strongly believe that captial punishment has no place in a civilised society. Now as for life meaning life......and sentences not meaning "out on licence" (read:go for a chat to your probation officer if you feel like it....).....that's a different ball park :innocent:
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Two comments on this being a civilised society. How civil is killing somebody?
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I don't agree with hanging or pts in any manner for crime - BUT I do believe in "proper" sentencing & making sure there is some kind of "payback to society".
IMHO - Yes, MOST prisoners should have basic human rights & be given an opportunity to have a second chance, but not the ones that have caused intentional harm (murderers, rapists or paedophiles etc).
Why can't prisoners be put on treadmills & produce "no/low carbon energy" to power the prison they are housed in & any extra sold back to the national grid to help pay for their keep?
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I believe that anyone who actually wants a return of the death penalty, should also be prepared to pull the lever to the trap door or push the button that starts off the lethal injection.
Now I KNOW that I wouldn't be able to do that, even if the convict was a beast. I cant even kill a chicken for goodness sake.
Its such an emotive subject and at times I have thought to myself "that b***ard should hang, but when the chips are down could I even be a jury member at the trial if I knew he/she would be sentenced to death. So I go back to my previous post on the other thread. Life means life, hard labour, no contact with the outside. (This for the most heinous crimes only though, otherwise its unworkable)
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Ruth Ellis certainly did kill her lover and her confession was undoubtedly true. She should never have been hanged for it though. This stuff gets complicated
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this is all well and good but in reality,
there are, out there, people who are just plain evil.
people who are too twisted and dark.
murderous child rapists should be put to sleep.
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Trouble comes when villains have killed and haven't been caught. No downside in killing again
Civilisation is a bit ragged round the edges. The US approach to execution seems to be enormously crap.
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I am 100% against hanging , although i can understand family members of murder victims calling for the death penalty , but that has nothing to do with justice .
Neither does demanding the death penalty while in the same breath asking " why should i pay to keep them ?" .
A very small minority of the uk population are in prison , an even smaller amount commit murder . The money collected in fines by revenue collecters , from speeding motorists , covers the cost of keeping the relatively few murderers in prison , and speeding motorists kill far more people every year than
murderers do .
As i say , i am against the death penalty . However , if my life or that of any of my family , were in danger , i would be prepared to kill an attacker in self defence . If any of my family were taken by a murderer i would most likely want revenge , vengeance call it what you will , but i would still call for no death penalty .
It is an emotive subject and as i said before , as long as we are under the rule of the eu , one we have no say in .
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Why can't prisoners be put on treadmills & produce "no/low carbon energy" to power the prison they are housed in & any extra sold back to the national grid to help pay for their keep?
I like that idea :roflanim:
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Rusty, I know where you're coming from on this issue, But to help you understand my point of view, my grandfather attended the last public hanging in this country , he told me it was the the most awsome deterrent to the crime of murder, and had a profound effect on all who attended , and witnessed the event, If this was still in place young men would think twice before getting hold of guns and grenades and re-enacting the video games for real.
And just for the record , my old man was in No3 Royal Marine Commando ,Loffoten Raid and a lot of others he never talked about He taught me well.
:wave:
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public hanging is or could be a deterrent to those that were watching it just as witnessing a fatal car crash would be a lesson in better driving skills
but how are you going to identify future murders to have them as front row voyeurs
as an aside but on the hanging i am led to believe the last man hanged in Scotland for sheep stealing came from avonbridge that was back in the days a sheep was worth more than a man and he would in all possibility just be feeding his family :farmer:
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I must have missed your vote entirely Tiz, but I have to side with the majority on this thread - and say I am against hanging.
Probably can't add much that hasn't already been said; but would say that the 'deterrent' value of hanging is negligible - if we divide murders into 2 categories for simplicity: - 'crime of passion' and 'premeditated', then the first group clearly aren't thinking about the consequences, and as for the second; they are thinking that the punishment is for getting caught rather than for committing the crime and are generally planning on getting away with it.
look at the stats - if you can show that countries with the death penalty have lower murder rates than those which don't then I'd like to see it.
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No doubt Doug , the site of someone hanging put off those watching , but were they all potential murderers ?
As mab and others have said , it isn't a deterant in countries that have the death penalty , nor was it here when we had it . If it had been there wouldn't have been a hanging for your granddad to view !
As for marines v sas taught hand to hand combat , which one's better ? , as Harry Hill says , " there's only one way to find out ! FIGHT !!!
How is the ankle mate ?
;-)
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;D
reminds me of that rather rude scottish comedian whos name escapes me, talking about how hard there dads were, 'ah mines a boxer he'll batter your dad', 'ah but mines a karate expert he'll chop your dad', up pipes wee willie, 'well my dads a gay and he'll s...g your dad....' :-J
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Do you think at the spur of the moment any child abuser, murderer, peodo, kid killer etc etc etc - thinks of anything but the moment and may consider the conciquences?
Having capital punishment will maybe deter the phycopath into thinking of other ways not to get caught - but your general run of the mill social deliquent thats capable of such things - probably not. They are mad.
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is that billy connely you are thinking of :farmer:
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Do you think at the spur of the moment any child abuser, murderer, peodo, kid killer etc etc etc - thinks of anything but the moment and may consider the conciquences?
Having capital punishment will maybe deter the phycopath into thinking of other ways not to get caught - but your general run of the mill social deliquent thats capable of such things - probably not. They are mad.
nah. the amount of planning and coordination and communication these guys use is premeditated. peadophilia is an industry. photos and videos are sold between them. i would say hardly any of it is 'spur of the moment'.
look at the 2 guys who raped that 14yrold boy in a debenhams on a saturday afternoon in manchester a few weeks back, that was planned and organised.
when i worked in woolworths brighton a decade ago we had a securty alert of a missing 6yr old boy. we shut the shop. full lock down. and searched the shop. we found the boy alone in a locked cubicle in the toilet with his head shaved and a new set of clothes on. that took planning.
the problem is there is no consequences. the scum that raped that boy will get 3/4 yrs, some rehab and be let back out.
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is that billy connely you are thinking of :farmer:
frankie boyle :thumbsup:
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What about all future prisons being somewhere in space. Bound to happen sometime !!!
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Theres enough crap floating around up there now without sending more.
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I remember the Goods on the Good Life using an air rifle to shoot a neighbour for nicking their veg' . Even Barbra had a pop at the bloke after Richard Briars invited him to have some more.
There is a scale , a balance in life . When the weight of the criminal activities overload the system, something will give. Unfortunately I feel that the criminal is dragging the good of society down. Too many drug dealers, thieves and so on upsetting the balance. If the law fails to deter then what will deter ?
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Theres enough crap floating around up there now without sending more.
:roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:
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There is a scale , a balance in life . When the weight of the criminal activities overload the system, something will give. Unfortunately I feel that the criminal is dragging the good of society down. Too many drug dealers, thieves and so on upsetting the balance. If the law fails to deter then what will deter ?
Well put, and this is where, whether some may like it or not, you have to have a strong enough deterrent to deter the determined criminal.