The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: Beewyched on September 14, 2012, 12:01:24 pm
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Has the time arrived to change the legislation regarding feeding "kitchen waste" to pigs?
Breeders/rearers are facing crippling increases in feed costs.
At the same time, we in the UK have complied with the regulations to better welfare standards for our animals, when other countries have not.
Surely if food classified as "fit for human consumption" is "fit for porcine consumption"! If not, then why not? What are we feeding our children ???
We are supposed to be decreasing landfill - a high percentage of this is "kitchen waste".
So, what's the problem ...?
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Surely if food classified as "fit for human consumption" is "fit for porcine consumption"! If not, then why not?
Because humans don't get foot and mouth.
However, I absolutely do think it's time for a reassessment and for certain sources to be licensed as safe for pigs. Ideally supermarkets, large-scale kitchens, etc, should be able to apply for a license to supply waste food for pig feed. Part of the license would be training in what is and is not suitable, and handling facilities to ensure no contamination.
To an extent, this is the case now, but I think in practise it doesn't happen very much as the rules are too draconian.
Not only does this proposal make sense in terms of pigkeepers, it makes sense for the planet to use waste food to grow more food rather than sending it to landfill or burning it.
But as long as we have no import restrictions on meat and meat-derivatives from countries where foot and mouth could be found, we will have to accept restrictions on what waste food can be used for pigs. :(
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sorry Lynne the whole point of not feeding kitchen waste is to prevent the cross contamination of food for pigs being tainted by or with cooked meats or gravy or from sources where it could happen Britain allows the importation of meat from country's that have a foot and mouth problem
there is and has been work going on to incorporate this source of food for several years maybe just to many commites to go through before it can be reintroduced
Mr pig might have more insight to this than i have :farmer:
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If all kitchen or supermarket veg was washed thoroughly first before giving it to the pigs, would this get rid of any possible contamination from gravy and suchlike? Tamsaddle
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they don't want every man and his dog feeding essentially swill they had that before and licenced swill feeders and that was the door that they hung the responsibility for the outbreak on :farmer:
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But ... surely with the regs & tests (scientific progress) this can be done safely now ???
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there has to be somebody there checking to see if there is any contaminated food going up the elevator to the storage bins and they will be on the minimum wage
have you seen waste veg that has sat for a day or two what starts as cheap or a no cost supply ends up costing money then you are just as well feeding proper food with no hastle :farmer:
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Ok - well what about stuff that's collected on a daily basis?
I certainly don't give my pigs anything that's gone mouldy & I can't imagine that anyone else on here would - just thinking of a daily run to local schools/hospitals etc.
But then judging on what my OH was given to eat in hospital :P - I wouldn't give that to my KKs either :roflanim:
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No tamsaddle, there is a protein in meat that is the cause of many diseases such as BSE, this protein can't be got rid of by those antibacterial sprays or washing down surfaces. It can then transmit to other foods,. It hangs around for ages on surfaces, I am not too sure if scrubbing with bleach gets rid of it, but in any case, how many people scrub down the surfaces with bleach after cutting meat. I don't.
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I used to collect boxes of waste fruit and veg from a greengrocer. Lovely, only a couple of miles away and tons of the stuff .
One day, going through it for plastic bags, flowers, paper etc. I found a half-eaten sausage and bacon roll. I discarded that box and told the people why things like that shouldn't go in the boxes. Fine, no problem, it wouldn't happen again. The following week I found exactly the same so now my pigs go fruit and veg-less. Too big a risk :o :o I'd be willing to bet that bacon and sausage didn't come from British reared pigs either!
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If all kitchen or supermarket veg was washed thoroughly first before giving it to the pigs, would this get rid of any possible contamination from gravy and suchlike? Tamsaddle
Sadly not. FMD is a virus, viruses are notoriously difficult to kill. Industrial strength disinfectant helps - but we don't want to be feeding our pigs veges covered in a film of disinfectant!
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What about food home produced food? I can see why the powers that be would want to close any loopholes which may allow feeding swill but I am struggling to understand some of the risk.....eg homemade pancakes using home produced eggs, home produced milk, not flour but presumably that isn't a huge foot mouth carrier...; and what about if you are a veggie and keep pet pigs? Aren't humans susceptible to foot and mouth? (hand foot mouth?).
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But who is to say your eggs and milk haven't come into contact with contaminated meat.
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What about food home produced food? I can see why the powers that be would want to close any loopholes which may allow feeding swill but I am struggling to understand some of the risk.....eg homemade pancakes using home produced eggs, home produced milk, not flour but presumably that isn't a huge foot mouth carrier...;
As I understand it, you can apply for approval to feed waste from your house. But in order to get that approval, your setup would have to be approved as safe from contamination.
You can feed vegetable waste straight from your veg plot. So, top and tail your carrots where you lift them, take the tops and tails straight round to the pigs - that's ok. But if you take the carrots into the kitchen to top and tail them, now you may not feed the carrot tops to the pigs.
and what about if you are a veggie and keep pet pigs?
I guess if you are a total veggie and only eat home-produced food you would be able to get that approval.
But as soon as food produced elsewhere has come into your kitchen, then there is the risk that it has been contaminated.
I don't know if anyone who is a vegan has ever tried to get approval? In theory, if you only eat home-produced food and only bring in certified vegan foodstuffs, then there should be no risk of contamination.
Aren't humans susceptible to foot and mouth? (hand foot mouth?).
It's incredibly rare and not at all serious in humans.
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Trouble is, they have to treat us all as idiots and enforce a blanket rule otherwise unfortunately this is a classic case of give an inch and a yard will be taken. If you say kitchen waste can be used, where will it stop, there are some idiots who will then give kitchen waste that has been on a roast dinner plate. The problem I see though, even a blanket ban does not stop people giving illegal food, I can guarantee that a very high percentage of pet pigs owners that think pet pigs can live in houses will be giving them food from the kitchen. This law as it stands or any law involving food and what not to give is unenforceable the way i see it in any case
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Personally I would like to feed my pigs waste from plants and animals produced on my farm. I'd be happy to go through red tape ::) for the sake of reduced feed costs and lack of waste. OK, at present I can give them waste veg (straight from the garden) and waste milk if I register. I can't feed them an old hen past laying, or a rabbit that I shoot, despite the fact that the hen and rabbit could have been wandering around in the pigs' pen the previous day. Daft or what? Plus, I'd like to feed them some of the offal from our lambs. I HATE waste, and I'm not sure that the current levels of food waste are sustainable nationally.
Oh, and humans can't catch FMD. Hand, foot and mouth disease, which we can catch, is an unrelated disease.
During the 2001 FMD outbreak, a farmer friend saw 2 walkers rambling across one of his fields despite it being "closed" due to the restrictions. Understandably furious, he (politely) challenged them, to which they responded: "Oh, we can't carry FMD, we're vegetarians!"!
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But who is to say your eggs and milk haven't come into contact with contaminated meat.
How? This is what I dont understand the eggs come from my hens and the milk from my goats and I dont eat meat that I haven't produced (only chooks sofar). I'm no biologist so excuse my ignorance of the disease I just genuinely dont get it. I feed my pig pellets and the cost isn't an issue as I have only kept these two wearers and theyll be off soon, but I am struggling with the fact that the food I eat and feed my family is not good enough for pigs!
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lol i agree diva, its ok if the pig helped himself to that hen but god forbid if you actually handed it to him. Bumblebee, its nothing to do with the food isn't good enough, its how I said in my previous post, there has to be a blanket ban to cover everyone, not all pig owners think sensibly. So to ensure that that everyone is forced to comply with feeding in a way that will prevent disease, they have to bring in this rule. And to be honest, you may have food that hasn't be contaminated, but what about joe bloggs who might feed his pigs scraps down the road, can you guarantee his food hasn't be contaminated by meat.
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... The problem I see though, even a blanket ban does not stop people giving illegal food, I can guarantee that a very high percentage of pet pigs owners that think pet pigs can live in houses will be giving them food from the kitchen. This law as it stands or any law involving food and what not to give is unenforceable the way i see it in any case
Very good point Liz ::)
:love: :pig: :love:
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With milk and eggs being imported from Africa, India and South America , and other third world toilets. Even European produce is not safe.
Do you want to be the one resposible for the next outbreak ? :rant:
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With milk and eggs being imported from Africa, India and South America , and other third world toilets. Even European produce is not safe.
Do you want to be the one resposible for the next outbreak ? :rant:
Definately not Tiz :sofa: just trying to start a debate here - not an arguement - honest :eyelashes:
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Beewyched, :) Much as I like the name Liz, my name is LINDA!!! :wave: :thumbsup: By the way just seen you are in west scotland, whereabouts, you could just be down the road from me
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Sorry Linda :notworthy: Karen did introduce us, but I'm not too good remembering names - I blame the "fibro-fog" myself :innocent:
We're the top end of Renfrewshire, about 15 miles West of Glasgow :love: :pig: :love:
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omg, when did karen introduce us, was it at wigtown show??? I think I remember you if it was, how are you. Are you going up to forfar?
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Yea - that's me, the one with the purple hair ;D
Will definately be going to Forfar, as Daisy qualified for the Young Pig of the Year & taking her mum, Maisie, & my other run-on gilt from this year Primrose (neither of whom have been shown before & I haven't started any ring-craft with them yet - so it should be a great :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim: )
Just noticed it's stopped raining - be back when the next :raining: starts ;)
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Good luck and hope we bump into one another. :wave:
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Not worth the risk.
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lol sabrina, what running into me or showing pigs :roflanim:
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lol sabrina, what running into me or showing pigs :roflanim:
:roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:
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Hmmmmm, well according to Wiki foot and mouth is an airborne disease also carried by clothes etc SO if I had contaminated feedstuffs in my kitchen then I would be potentially carrying it on me anyway. Interestingly it also says it is destroyed by heat I.e. cooking. I also didn't realise that the latest outbreak was most probably caused by a research facility releasing the virus rather than the poor animals eating contaminated food...
"Food" for thought......
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Hmmmmm, well according to Wiki foot and mouth is an airborne disease also carried by clothes etc SO if I had contaminated feedstuffs in my kitchen then I would be potentially carrying it on me anyway. Interestingly it also says it is destroyed by heat I.e. cooking. I also didn't realise that the latest outbreak was most probably caused by a research facility releasing the virus rather than the poor animals eating contaminated food...
"Food" for thought......
Exactly - I remember the last "funeral pyres" in Wales due to that outbreak & I sobbed every time I saw them - something I won't forget, ever.
But ...
As I orginally started this poll - I still don't know what all the issues are - so it's very interesting seeing other folks' point of view on this :thumbsup:
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Remember the time very well, drove past Heddon-on-the-wall where it was presumed the outbreak started. All the farms aroundvthe area had pyres. I felt the northeast smelled of burning animals for months, really felt for the farmers :'( . A friend was furious as their animals were insured against it but the government paid out more per animal for uninsured animals than that of insured :rant:
After the devastation it caused we really cannot be complacent and safeguards should be in place.
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Absolutely, safeguards should be, and are, in place. No-one wants to see a repeat of the carnage that followed earlier outbreaks. But I don't see how my feeding my pigs on waste eggs and meat from animals reared on my farm increases the risk. I'd obviously keep it out of my kitchen, as I do with the potatoes and jerusalem artichokes (again, grown here) that I boil up to feed to my pigs: even though I don't buy in any meat!
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F&M compensation actually saved alot of farmers from going under who had dire debts.
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The problem isn't just the huge number of diseases that we know can spread through contaminated food stuffs but more importantly it is the worry of those that we do not yet know. BSE is a prime example, remember the politicians telling us it is perfectly safe and there is no chance it can jump to humans. The regulation does make it crippling at times to smallholders who must be economical with their limited resources but it is there to not only protect the standard of food and reputation of British produce but also to potentially save lives. To change the law would be foolish at best and down right dangerous at worst.
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i am goig to print this bold not that i am shouting or raging just to try and inform
BSE WAS AN ENTIRELY MAN MADE DISEASE DUE TO VARIOUS SLIP UPS AND AND WRONG ADVICE FROM ADVISORS FOR TWO YEARS IN SUCSESSION THE FARMERS OR BRITAIN WERE FORCED TO TREAT THERE CATTLE WITH ORGANOPHOSPHATE TO KILL WARBLE FLY THIS WAS DUE TO LOBBYING BY THE LEATHER MANUFACTURERS TO COINCEIDE WITH THIS THE RENDERERS ASSOCIATION HAD ALSO LOBBIED TO GO FROM A BATCH PROCESS TO CONTINIOUS FLOW PROCESS AND THE SAME HEAT WAS NOT APPLIED A THIRD MAN MADE MISTAKE BY ADVISORS WAS THAT THEY ALLOWED ANIMAL PROTEIN IN THE FORM OF MEAT AND BONE MEAL TO BE INCORPORATED IN ANIMAL FEEDS
THE INQUIRY INTO BSE SHYED AWAY FROM POINTING THE FINGER AT THE SYSTEM THAT ALLOWED THIS TO HAPPEN AND IMPOSED CHANGES THAT ARE WITH US TO DATE
CHICKEN FEED WAS ALSO MADE UP FROM FROM CHICKEN LITTER WHICH INCLUDED THE CARCASSES OF DEAD CHICKENS
IN EFFECT BSE IS A SYNDROME COWS TREATED WITH ORGANOPHOSPHATE A KNOWN NERVE AGENT SOME DIED AND WENT THROUGH THE RENDERERS CONTINIOUSE FLOW PROCESS THAT THEN WENT ON TO BE INCORPORATED IN ANIMAL FEEDS THAT THEN INFECTED THE DAIRY HERDS AS THEY WERE MORE RELIANT ON FEEDING HIGH PROTEIN CAKE TO BOOST OR MAINTAIN MILK YIELD :farmer:
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Thanks for that Robert - I wasn't aware of it before now :thumbsup:
To be honest - I shouldn't be surprised that so much of these animal health issues have been caused by "The System" - I remember reading with horror about the dead of Sebastapol being brought back & used as fertiliser :o It certainly gives that saying "cannon fodder" a new meaning :(
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i hope in the years to come that an enquiry like the one that is taking place with hillsbourgh will be initiated and show just how big a cover up did take place with BSE and foot and mouth
every time there is an outbreak of foot and mouth a government agency enquires about the cost of sleepers fuel oil coal and plant charges :farmer:
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Although not a natural conspiracy theorist...it does make you think about how/why these scares are reported. As far as I can tell the only ones who really benefit in the long run are the feed manufacturers (who let's face it can put whatever they like in the feeds that we *have to* buy - SYSTEM approved obviously) and the government who recoup the taxes/vat paid on the feed etc.
Scaremongering is a lucrative business....do I sound cynical? :innocent:
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Although not a natural conspiracy theorist...it does make you think about how/why these scares are reported. As far as I can tell the only ones who really benefit in the long run are the feed manufacturers...
Thousands of public sector workers and beaurocrats in Brussels and UK rely on keeping people worried about just about everything, creating the need for Food Standards Agencies, Meat Hygiene Inspectors, people who check that you're completing you annual ladder inspection report, and ensure you're worried about terrorism, botulism & crossing the road.