The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: woollyval on September 05, 2012, 10:12:52 pm
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http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/05/09/2012/134986/Liver-fluke-warning-as-wormer-resistance-rises.htm (http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/05/09/2012/134986/Liver-fluke-warning-as-wormer-resistance-rises.htm)
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Thanks Val - very timely, though clear as mud what I ought to do. I'm sure the vet will be very keen to sit down and develop an individual program with me for my 14 sheep. Not !! I did treat for fluke in June and was told to treat gain in October, so I might just bring that forward a bit. The article contradicts the leaflet I picked up in the vet (as does the vets recommendations!!) which says recent weather paterns have produced low fluke conditions and that treatment should be evidence based to prevent resistance (like worming). Maybe it was true before the wettest summer? Preventative medication of sheep, I hate the subjectivity of it! Autumn goal is to understand the Soil Association organic guidance (not that I am, but am hoping that is guidance on what is the absolute 'must do' medication and what is the stuff that has leached to smallholding sheep care from commercial farming systems. Anyone on here organinc - what do you do re fluke?
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My vet told me recently that it was too early to treat for fluke ::) . Never know what to do for the best ???
Met a lady the other day who kept a flock of over 80 Soay. Never did any routine treatment - no heptavac, fly strike stuff or routine worming/fluke. Said she never had any serious problems/ did not lose sheep as a consequence.
Interesting. ???
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All depends on your local environment really.
And the weather. I think the change in weather patterns is changing when certain things are hatching/breeding etc.
I have small snails all over the place here (south wales), and have done all summer, and have I streams in half of my fields, so I treat from Sept/Oct to May. I follow Nadis's advice every year, which changes year on year. Just started my fluke treating this week.
I think Fluke is one of those things that once you notice symptoms it's quite well developed and sometimes too late for the poor sheep.
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I bashed my sheep with a combined wormer/flukicide beginning aug, cos I had cocci as well as worms which is so odd for the time of year, I thought I might as well use a wormer that does fluke too, just in case.
Your fluke incidence probably depends where you live. We don't see much of it down here, better to take local advice rather than a 'one size fits all' for the entire country.
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We were told to treat for fluke with a separate preparation this month by the vet. I guess that's local conditions.... But when I mentioned this at the agri store they looked at me a bit gone out and suggested the usual Combinex - otherwise the smallest bottle of pure fluke stuff was for 50 sheep (we have 16).
So - haven't done anything yet......
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It defiantely depends on if you have a problem with fluke on your land. It tends to be related to the type of land you have rather than the way it is managed.
I'm sure the vet will be very keen to sit down and develop an individual program with me for my 14 sheep. Not !!
Have you asked them? You might be surprised.
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We were told to treat for fluke with a separate preparation this month by the vet. I guess that's local conditions.... But when I mentioned this at the agri store they looked at me a bit gone out and suggested the usual Combinex - otherwise the smallest bottle of pure fluke stuff was for 50 sheep (we have 16).
So - haven't done anything yet......
If you have fluke in your sheep, 3 treatments over the winter period would be a minimum so you would use all of the bottle , if you don't have fluke then you don't need any, i have fluke in the sheep and treat at least 5 times . F I B when i was organic i still had to treat as normal , animal welfare comes first but i was encouraged to drain or fence wet areas. IN THE HILLS all my ewes are treated at weaning in august :raining:
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shep53 - thanks for that. Will get back in touch with our vet because I was told by a neighbouring farmer that we probably would get fluke due to stream through all our paddocks and rushes in places. And with all the rain we've had .......
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Right - we've also got wet land - rushes in the fields and boggy bits in places etc. I shall start this weekend.
The vet probably took one look and advised accordingly!!
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I have never treated for fluke, but my main field has been boggy all summer so have just got some Cydectin TriclaMox to do them with just in case as it has a persistent effect on roundworms which have been very active lately!
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Your vet can take blood samples to test for fluke which may be cheaper than treating for something you may not have . I f you have to treat remember their are three different chemicals NITROXYNIL _ Trodax CLOSANTEL_ Flukiver / Closamectin /Supaverm TRICLABENDAZOLE _ Fasinex / Ttibex /Endofluke/ Combinex /Fasimec :raining:
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Thanks for that - I think I will get a blood test - is it likely that they will all have it or not or could one have it and not the rest?. When 2 died over the winter and had PM there was no sign in the liver, but there were only ewe lambs so vet said that didnt rule it out and as we are in a wet anf fluky area vet suggested dosing (not based on positive ID in our sheep). Thanks all for great thread informative as ever.
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It is possible for afew sheep to have fluke and not the rest or to have different levels of infection , it depends on where they graze :raining:
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This worming lark is very confusing and contradictory. I regularly FEC and worm accordingly. Eventually, having asked for fluke test, vet says eggs for this and other worms don't always shed and therefore not always identifiable even if affected.
I wormed in June for everything regardless of egg count and will do same in autumn.
Will blood testing definitely show up fluke? Does it show up anything else?
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We're in the north, upland, boggy reshy ground, and it's been a long wet summer. :gloomy:
We get lab reports from one of the abattoirs our fat lambs go to. Usually over the summer we get maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of them showing sign of fluke. The report doesn't give you a measure of severity, only that they've found fluke in the liver. Given that they're fit lambs going away fat in summer, we have always concluded that it hasn't been harming them much!
Last month, the lab report showed fluke in 26 of 29 lambs. The next week we sent off everything that was anything like ready and fluked the rest. (It's an 8 week withdrawal, hence sending off what we could before treating the ones that are staying a while longer - who will now be staying at least 8 weeks :(.)
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Just a quick reply re fluke testing and resistance
Testing
The blood test: if they are testing for antibodies it will show up exposure, not always indicative of current infection. But if the sheep have only ever grazed on your land and they come up positive then you know you have fluke on your land.
They can also test in the blood for liver and bile duct enzymes that indicate damage to the liver and bile duct, but these may not always be due to fluke.
Faecal test: They can do a FEC, but it is only positive for fluke over ~9weeks old. So the young fluke can have already caused considerable damage by then. And the vet is right, the eggs can be shed sporadically so they can have negative FECs but still be infected. The situation with fluke diagnostics isn't very good at the moment.
With regards to resistance, there isn't any resistance noted in this country with the closantel based drugs, but they don't target the very young fluke. There has been resistance reported in the UK, and lots of treatment failure with Triclabendazole based drugs, but it targets the very young fluke so it is a preferable treatment if you don't have resistance.
Hope that helps some people and doesn't confuse more!
Dans
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The MORDUN is working on a new test ELISA which looks for fluke secretions in faeces. if it works it will be faster and more accurate . :raining: STILL
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The new ELISA is by a Belgium company, Moredun is.just seeing how good it is and if it can replace FEC.It is not available everywhere yet, although I think Moredun Scientific were offering it commercially. It still has some faults, but does seem to turn positive a few weeks before the FEC and seens better at determining treatnent outcome than FEC (eggs shed for up to 3 weejs after fluke die).
Dans sorry for any spelling mistakes Im on my phone
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This worming lark is very confusing and contradictory. I regularly FEC and worm accordingly. Eventually, having asked for fluke test, vet says eggs for this and other worms don't always shed and therefore not always identifiable even if affected.
I wormed in June for everything regardless of egg count and will do same in autumn.
Will blood testing definitely show up fluke? Does it show up anything else?
You aren't too far from me. geographically. As long as your land is well-drained and sloping (ie no ares awherw water collects), I wouldn't worry too much. FECs of the kind you get in your vets won't show up fluke, but were I you, Id use a wormer that treats the worms you have + fluke at the back end of the year. In 'normal' years, I would do this Sept onwards, but I did it in Aug this year. I FEC every 8 weeks or so and worm accordingy. I keep meaning to FEC before and after and make a note of which wormers work best, but I'll probably do that when I have the kit to FEC myself.
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I would just add that unless proved necessary by FEC, I wouldn't treat animals with a combined wormer.
If FEC for nematodes (round worms) is low/zero and they need fluke treatment only, that is what they need to get, full stop. It is a waste of money (even if cheaper at the store initially, it will be in the long run), time and potentially increasing resistance in round worms to treat when not needed.
Somebody mentioned only big bottles of one product or other for flukes only, remember you will have to treat likely more than once anyway so you will use most of it.
Also IMO it is a good thing to be on the line with your vets as they most likely know the local conditions of nearby farms and what they are doing re. treatments. The vet who wrote in Farmers Weekly was right in what she said - for the area where they are.
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Going back to that comment about bottle size ...
...it says on the Flukiver bottle "The time between withdrawal of the first and last doses from the container should not be unduly prolonged." Does anyone know what this actually means in practise? Does it mean you have to use it in one go? I mean I opened my bottle erm, last year? or before that even, and have been using it ever since. It's expiry is next year sometime. Obviously it gets the lid put back on tight in between uses.
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So long as its never been frozen , i would keep using :raining: STILL
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All of the white wormers , i see 13 listed , with ALBENDAZOLE or RICOBENDAZOLE as the chemical ,only treat adult fluke , and should only be used late spring/ summer ( in the autumn / winter immatures are the problem ) . Also because the fluke dose is double the worm dose they are not recommended for in lamb sheep .