The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: SteveHants on September 03, 2012, 11:21:17 pm
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Thats the toy, not the things between their legs....
I had heard, somewhat unreliably, that working Collies shouldn't be allowed to play with them too much. However, nobody told my other half or my daughter this and now my pups favourite occupation is ball-chasing (as of last week, I might add). He is as yet unworked, as he was only born in late December, and he seems no less keen to work than he did before (He goes mental when he sees sheep, especially when he is in the back of the landy and they are running, almost turns summersaults).
I have been 'making the best of a bad job' and using the ball as a training aid, he can stand and lie down and I have been sending him out after the ball and standing him (and/or lying him down) when he has it, before calling him back. Seems to be working, in spite of him being very excitable, so I figure its a good thing.
Should I carry on with this or nip it in the bud?
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I'm not a collie owner/trainer, but ...
I would have thought anything to encourage & strengthen the relationship between you should be a positive thing.
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I'm not terribly experienced, but have had three working collies. I've trained Dot from scratch, bought Skip part-trained and have brought him on, and Ted arrived knowing what to do but with no commands whatsoever ::)
I think they're all pretty useful dogs now ;D And my BiL thinks so much of Skip he borrows him every February to go lambing with him now his own dog is too old.
Collies are obsessive, they're bred that way. If you had a dog you wanted to work that wasn't obsessed with sheep, you wouldn't want it to become obsessed with an alternative. Dog trainers working to manage sheep-obsession in non-working dogs will try to develop an obsession with balls (or ragger, or squeaky toy, or anything the handler can control the dog's access to), then use the object of the dog's obsession to distract the dog from the sheep. So as a general rule, one wouldn't want a collie that's to work to get too interested in any toys.
Some people also think it will harm a collie's outrun (where it runs out in an arc to skirt wide around the sheep and get to the other side of them before coming in to bring them to you) to be running straight after a ball or other toy.
But, they have to be puppies and they have to play! So a bit of fun with a few different toys, a bit of chasing and fetching, won't hurt. As your dog is clearly very interested in sheep, you probably wouldn't be able to override that obsession in any case. So I wouldn't be too upset about it, but I wouldn't do too much of that with him yourself, I'd leave that to be a game he plays with your daughter.
However, my main concern with what you've been doing is that with a working collie, all training and all training words really need to relate to sheep. It's a mistake to start teaching any of the working vocabulary in the absence of sheep, with the possible exception of '[come] here' and a heel command, as these two alone are the same in the presence or the absence of sheep.
"Come Bye" doesn't mean "Go left", it means "Go clockwise round the sheep". Depending where the dog is when the command is given, it may have to run right to get to the sheep and go clockwise around them. Similarly, "Away [to me]" doesn't mean "Go right", it means "Go anticlockwise round the sheep."
"Walk On", doesn't mean, "Walk forwards", it means "Walk towards the sheep."
"Lie down" doesn't mean the same to a working collie as it does to a pet or obedience collie. It does not mean "flatten your body on the ground where you are and wait for another command." It means "focus on the sheep; lower your body; remain focussed on the sheep and don't move". In other words, when a shepherd tells his/her dog to "lie down", the dog should stop moving, usually lower its body or lie down facing and looking at the sheep. Most shepherds have at least three "Lie down" commands. All of them sound like "Lie down" to a non-shepherd. (1) means "focus on the sheep, pause"; (2) means "focus on the sheep; stop and lower your body a little", and (3) means "focus on the sheep and lie down, really lie down". That's one of the reasons a lot of people think many collies are "hard to stop" - they hear the shepherd calling, "lie down .... Lie Down! ... LIE DOWN!!!!" and think the collie ignored the first two commands. Well, it may have done, but equally likely, the shepherd was bringing the collie slowly onto the sheep, slowing it as it gets nearer, so as not to spook them. On the final "LIE DOWN!!!!", the collie should have the sheep under control from the prone position. If it'd stopped flat on the first "lie down", they would have known it was too far away and couldn't stop them and they wouldn't have been under control. If it'd approached without that slowing, they would have spooked and run away, and not been under control.
So, Steve, I really wouldn't be teaching your dog any commands you want to use with sheep while you are playing with him with the ball. In fact, I wouldn't be teaching him any commands at all except a come here (come straight to me, in a straight line, no matter what obstacle is in the way) command and a walking to heel command. Maybe a "drop it" command. (Don't use "That'll do" for that!)
Collie-training works best when you let the collie do what comes naturally and then tell it what it's doing. So let it run round the sheep; as it moves clockwise around them, tell it, "Come Bye"; as it moves anticlockwise around them, tell it, "Away". You get it to change direction without a spoken command by using your body to shift the sheep so that the dog changes direction to compensate. Then tell it what it's doing. Gradually it learns to associate the sound with the action and you can start to give the command ahead of the action. There are other ways to train collies, of course, but this one works well and fast, involves no compulsion and no retribution, and results in a collie happy in its work, so it is my recommended way. Oh, and I learned it off Derek Scrimgeour - it's his recommended way too ;D
Working a collie on sheep is not like obedience or any other discipline I've experienced. You're a team, partners; you need to rely on each other and trust each other. You don't give commands, you make suggestions, give invitations. Your dog may well take your advice, but sometimes it may not. It may be able to see something from where it is that means your suggestion isn't the best thing to do. It may not understand how the suggestion you've made is useful in the current situation. (An experienced collie is always thinking ahead, so if it doesn't understand where the action is leading, it may not be able to see how to do it. And it always knows what the sheep might do next, and how it will counter that.)
I'm getting a little ahead of the original question now, so I'll curb myself (lie DOWN, Sally) and give you a chance to read and absorb that.
I was thinking the other day, how owners always look like their animals, and wondering in what way, then, I am like a collie. (Since I am certainly not fast and wiry.) I realise, reading this, that, as a collie is obsessed with sheep... ;)
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Thanks Sally.
I am intending to take him up the road for some training to the breeder who produced his dam and has good working/trialling dogs. I have also got the Andy Nickless DVD. He does not know his flanking commands yet - when I said I 'sent him out after the ball' I just meant I chucked it.
The thing that had puzzled me, was that on said 'VD the dogs seem to know the commands to stand and to lie down, even when they first saw sheep and knew nothing else, so I have been stopping him quite regularly, for example, when I go to the landrover, I will stand him at the gate and sometimes lie him down too, just to vary the commands, make him wait till I have opened the back and then give him the command to get in the landy (which is 'hup' in my case, I can get him to jump over bales etc with the same command).
I had also contacted the trainer because when I first taught him to lie down, he would come to me and then lie down (because thats what my daft terrier does - I tried to train that out of him, but he's a terrier - what can you do? :P ) and he had suggested lying him down in a passageway or path which was fenced on both sides and stopping him coming past you, which he can now do, the ball thing was the first instance Id stopped him away from me in an open space.
I'm tempted to leave it all alone now until he sees sheep which should be fairly soon (Oct - Novemberish, Id thought), he's a big dog and I don't think he will 'lack power' so to speak, especially if he carries on the way he does when he's on the leash around sheep etc. I'm actually wondering if I should pen up some weaned lambs and send him round those. I have also used him for a bit of yard work in exasperation because I had an instance or two where sheep didn't want to go up the trailer ramp and its funny how a dog outside the pen can make them change their mind about that.....
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Exactly what Sally says, save me some typing ;D
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I found that absolutely fascinating Sally, thank you for posting so much info. Even though I won't ever be using a proper dog with my sheep it might help with the terrier we do use. He's basically just keen and has absolutely none of the sheep intelligence which collies have, but I can see that if we keep some words purely for sheep work that may help him not to be so daft at times (of course he's not daft - it's our commands which are confusing him) :sheep: :dog:
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There are many ways to train collies; some people but by no means most use Derek Scrimgeour's methods. Most other methods differ greatly, and for the most part you need to stick to one apprpoach, not pick and choose between.
So, Steve, if you've a local trainer you want to use then you probably should ignore pretty much everything I've said, and definitely where it conflicts with what she's telling you.
I'm so glad you enjoyed that, Fleecewife. I would happily write about collie dogs for hours. ;D
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I agree with everything that sally says, but keep it in perspective. A working collie does not have to be quite as 'proffessional' as a trial dog. Most of all enjoy your relationship with your dog. One of mine is a natural worker and I find leaving her to work is better than constantly correcting her. We get the job done. My other girl is accurate and obedient, but my early enthusiasm for getting it right has meant that she lacks the enthusiasm that her daughter has.
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Some great reading in these replies!
The only thing I may add is that to my mind throwing balls / toys etc for ANY dog (not just a working collie) is teaching the dog "as soon as anything flies past you - you chase it ". Repeated endlessly like collies will have you do is just reinforcing this message. I see people doing this on the exercise field at agility shows - and the same people then moan that they can't have their dogs loose if there are moving vehicles - because their dogs will chase the vehicles !! I wonder why ? They have taught them to mindlessly chase.
The only way I will play this game with my dogs whether gundogs or collies is to get them to sit or lie down, I throw the ball, they watch, they get the release command when they look back at me. Then you are building control ;) [size=78%] [/size]
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collies obsessive never when we went to view our first collie pup its mother had a path worn in the ground where it constantly ran back and forth it was a trained working sheep dog the pup we did buy never showed any signs of this obsession our second stud dog both parents were working sheep dogs does show the same signs it has to be near whoever is feeding the pigs if anybody is in its runway you are knocked over all the rest of the dogs are very happy to look at the piglets through the gaps one in particular would sit for hours just watching every movement
now Sheba our original dog was ball daft no other dog from her has taken up this trait her granddaughter likes a toy donought one pup we sold is trained as a mountain rescue dog the toy element is essential in this training as is leaving sheep well alone although none have been trained as a sheep dog we did have a pup that we were going to try to train it was very good at free running and did like a hurl on the quad but we sold him and he now travels all over britain hill walking :farmer:
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There are many ways to train collies; some people but by no means most use Derek Scrimgeour's methods. Most other methods differ greatly, and for the most part you need to stick to one apprpoach, not pick and choose between.
So, Steve, if you've a local trainer you want to use then you probably should ignore pretty much everything I've said, and definitely where it conflicts with what she's telling you.
I'm so glad you enjoyed that, Fleecewife. I would happily write about collie dogs for hours. ;D
He never mentioned balls and I felt a bit daft ringing him to ask, plus I get the feeling he gets a bit sick of my million questions when I do ring; hence the thread.
I'll take your advice and let my wife and daughter play ball with him. I cant stop doing what I have already done with the 'stop' commands, as its probably too late. I'll just have to make the best of it. I reckon ill give the trainer a bell and see if Id do any harm by showing him some sheep. He really is so keen and big, seems a shame not to let him.
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I reckon ill give the trainer a bell and see if Id do any harm by showing him some sheep. He really is so keen and big, seems a shame not to let him.
It's probably the hardest bit to get right... Initially he may want to 'grip' (bite) and of course you don't want him to. And you certainly don't want him to decide that's fun, okay, and it become a habit. But you don't want to curb his enthusiasm, either, so you don't want to be shouting (or worse) at him. I think I'd keep him on a lead until you have someone experienced with you who can make sure he never gets to the point where he may grip.
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Where are you Steve? it is a good idea to have a trainer handy when you first let loose on sheep. I am Scrimgeour trained!! But I think I am too far faway from you. Don't forget the value of your position regarding dog and sheep. If yougo clockwise the dog should go anti clockwise to balance the sheep. You can distrast from gripping etc by working this balance. Sometimes you just have to trust your dog.
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Dogs don't understand English - or any other language for that matter, so you can start afresh with your pup, Steve, using French if you have a mind to - but equally using a different set of words from what you have already been using.
For instance - 'lie down' could now be different intonations of 'FLAT', 'GOFLAT', or anything else you choose.
Just because one shepherd uses 'lie down' doesn't mean you have to use that too.
A dog is trained by giving a command when it does something naturally or is made to do something - each time that is repeated it learns and eventually associates the action with your words
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i have heard two story's of sheep dogs being trained in Gaelic and welsh then sold to new owners and not working :farmer:
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Where are you Steve? it is a good idea to have a trainer handy when you first let loose on sheep. I am Scrimgeour trained!! But I think I am too far faway from you. Don't forget the value of your position regarding dog and sheep. If yougo clockwise the dog should go anti clockwise to balance the sheep. You can distrast from gripping etc by working this balance. Sometimes you just have to trust your dog.
I was hoping that the phonecall to the trainer might result in an offer to let him go there and go round his sheep actually..... ;D
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...and it did. :)
Pips training session lasted about 10 minutes. We ascertained he wanted to chase sheep and he would go round them.
He now needs to learn to STFU so we can train him, so no seeing sheep for a month, Pip. ::)
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Good news, Steve :thumbsup:
Derek reckons they bark when they're over-faced, so start small - small pen; just a few small, quiet and dog-trained lambs, so the pup doesn't feel daunted and can start to see how it can control the sheep.
But yes, sounds like he just needs a bit more age about him before he sees sheep again.
It's looking good though :thumbsup:
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I think the barking is my fault - he comes around with me in the land rover and can see the sheep. The trainer reckons its frustration at seeing them run away and not being able to get at them - hence he cant see sheep for a bit. I might put him in a dog-cage and cover it when I'm with sheep, that way I can continue bonding with the dog.
Also he went at the sheep tail up, in 'play' mode, so he needs to mature a bit.
He managed to jump the pen, get in and nip some of the sheep, so he seems to have plenty of power about him - this is not nescessarily a bad thing, Wilts Horn rams need a confident dog to work them (so do the ewes, come to that).
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'Tail up' in a working collie usually signals anxiety. So does tail-between-legs, as per any dog, but in the first case the collie is addressing the fear with aggression / bravado, in the latter the fear is showing.
Your job as trainer is to build his confidence so that he never needs to fear that anxiety. Starting small with trained sheep will give him the confidence that he can outrun them (he can't outrun adult sheep in the open yet, but he doesn't need to know that ;)) and that he has the power (in his eyes, not in his teeth!) to hold them and to turn them. (Again, he won't in fact be able to do this with older, bolshier sheep for a while, but again, he does not need to know that ;))
Sure, you can move sheep with a collie operating with his teeth, tail up, full of bravado. But you won't control sheep with that dog.
The collies with the most power move the least. It's all in the stance, the eyes, the confidence.
And yes, in the real world, the dog has to know how to use his teeth when it is necessary. But if you let him do that from the beginning he will probably never develop his real power. So my preference is to teach them confidence in their own power, skills and dominance over sheep by building on success - small steps, always set up for success, never putting the dog in a position where he is frightened or not sure what to do.
He needs to learn that he can make those sheep do anything - and that if he doesn't know how right now, that you will give him the command that makes it all work.
Once he knows that, then you teach him to use his teeth. But on command, under control, and only in the ways that you stipulate and when you say so. Generally, a nip to the back of the leg to encourage from behind - but it must be the lower part of the leg, not the fleshy bit - and a snap to the face with a bolshy sheep. Skip's an artist with that one, he hardly ever makes contact but he shows the sheep unequivocally that he could and he would if he had to.
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Fascinating thread. Thank you.
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..... yes I am really enjoying this tread too,thanks SallyintNorth for some great advice on sheep dog handling :thumbsup: .
I normally do a little of something everyday with our young collie,she is great fun,but very very excitable ::) , and with renewed thought on making her drive the sheep slowly, and not get to excited and" fly about ",as she can do, - our training session went very well this morning. :relief: (http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/ae26/thomsett_bucket/P1020655.jpg)
- Going back to basics and making sure they didn`t get things wrong really does build confidence in a young dog
Tilly and Meg :wave:
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A quick update:
Pip is still very noisy, and my trainer had suggested that I pen up some sheep like he did and ring him when the dog goes round them quietly, which I had planned to do...
But: I had noticed he is silent around sheep if he is on the lead and walked up to them and I had been reading VSS book, annd he suggests letting a dog have a go in a field before pen training so....
I have a field with about 8 cull ewes in it, its....I guess 7 or so acres. So, I took the dog up there and walked round the ewes with him on a slip......bunched them up in the middle of the field and let him off.
Bugger me if he didn't go round the sheep (too close for my liking, but you can't have it all), balanced them pretty well, except when he got over excited, he did lose one or two out of the group and the rest got themselves against a fence, so I tried to push them off (arms and stick), and bugger me if he didn't get them off the fence himself - all the time hes bringing the sheep to me, often times they ended up a foot from me and stuck to the fence..
So; I tried it again the next week and he did the same thing, but better - he'd clearly learned, so not a fluke. Wasn't giving commands at this stage because he isn't rally listening, too excited apart from saying 'come bye' and 'away' when he was going in that particular direction. He was silent through both of these incidents.
And today:
I have a piece of downland split into two 75 ac fields - I walk him on the side that has no sheep so he can let off stem, but he must have smelled the ewes or something...so.. he ran off and must have pushed under the gate (It was up quite a slope and I'm not Usain Bolt)..
By the time I got to the top and had hopped in the land rover to go look for him, he was busily bringing me the whole mob. He did lose it quickly, unable to keep splitters with the rest, ended up splitting them in two and chasing some 5 or so stragglers - I caught him then - of course I had to let him go again so he wouldn't associate being called with leaving his game. I was still mightily impressed though.
So; on to the pen of ewes I think, to teach him to run out wider and possibly to actually listen to me.
But - I am so relieved he wants to work and can keep his trap shut - I bought him as a pup because I wanted him to bond with the family and my biggest worry was having to get rid because he couldn't/wouldn't work - but now I am convinced that one day, with some work he will make the grade.
He is currently flavour of the week. :)
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That all sounds really promising, Steve :thumbsup: Well done Pip :trophy:
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And heres a pic of the downs concerned.
There are no sheep on the side of the downs in the photo - I had him off the lead in the small valley - the sheep were over the far slope and my land rover was parked by the woods at the top of the far slope (mush where it is in the photo, but the sun wasn't shining today..). So, you can see why I couldn't keep him in sight running up that hill. ;D
Oh, and there are nigh on 200 ewes up there, so quite a mob to fetch!
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a314/Funky_Monks/2012-11-04154000_zps1e040405.jpg)
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Glad your lad is showing promise :thumbsup:
My neighbour teaches his collies in the manner described by SITN. He only teaches the pups a recall in his yard and gets them used to a collar and lead. He shows them the sheep at around 9 mnths to see if they are ready to start training. Between 9-12 mnths he begins to train. Says they will not listen at all initially and he merely shouts the commands as they do the actions eg. lie down when they naturally do it. Sheep are in a small pen initially to keep them safe.
Things are more complicated I think when the young dog is kept also as a pet/house dog. Children are very tempted to throw for them and children/OH all giving slightly different commands ::) . My collie will have to learn some commands/training before the 9 mnths because she has lots of different roles ..... jack of all trades and master of none .... bit like me. ::) ;D
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I have just been reading the update on your dog, Pip's progress. I used to have 3 collies and at one time plenty of sheep to work on. The bitch, Blazer was useless when I started with her and so got another dog, Skip, who was absolutely brilliant and will never get another one like him. Blaze used to watch Skip when I worked him on sheep and Indian Runner ducks and went everywhere with us as well as on the trialling fields. Eventually Blazer was working the Indian Runners herself after spending many months watching Skip do it and she also started to work some old ewes in a small field. So dogs do learn by watching other dogs. I then got a 3rd dog, Henry who was very good, not as good as Skip but I was able to run a brace with both Skip and Henry quite successfully. I now have another dog, Pip from Wales, as the others have all died after long and happy lives, and sadly I have found it very difficult to find grazing fields in order to get a small flock of sheep. I have been playing ball with the Pip and getting her to lie down and come to me for a while now and I got in contact with someone and he said bring the dog over and you can have a run around on the sheep and to my amazment when I tried Pip on the small flock she didn't do bad at all. She hasn't got very good right hand outrun but she has a good left hand one but then again I have known and listened to other shepherds that say every dog has a good side and a bad side, just like people. She is now 15mos she is settling down nicely so I don't think playing ball does them any harm at all. In my mind it is better to teach the dog something and teach them commands that you may use at a later date with sheep then do nothing with them at all. After all collies are very clever and adaptable dogs. :)