The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Ladygrey on August 24, 2012, 09:29:34 pm
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Dont know if anyone can answer this for me :-\ but when I get back from work in the evening and in the morning I have noticed that 1 lamb is on his own, he stands in the top corner of the field, staring at the fence with his head and ears down baaing quietly to himself :( ??? ??? he is also sleeping away from the others curled up on a patch of mud (reseeded some of the field). so he is alone and very dirty and looks awful. He is also thinner than the others now.
I have started feeding the ewes some sugarbeet before rammy comes and all the others come running, but he doesnt even react, I can walk up to him and pick him up and I have noticed he has a bad foot (shelley hoof I think) but I am worried about him now :-\
Anyone have any ideas? I really cant afford the vet and unfortunately he isnt really worth it what with the vet charging £42 call out charge now
thanks
jess
Why would a sheep start isolating himself?
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By, "I can't afford the vet", I assume you mean you are hoping that guidance on here can avoid the necessity of a visit to the vet, and not that you genuinely would deprive this animal of veterinary attention were it needed.
Now, to try to be constructive.
You won't have to pay a callout charge if you take the lamb to the vet.
Clearly this lamb is unwell. You could take a fresh stool sample into the vet with you for a faecal egg count to see if it's worms.
Have you fluked your lambs? Might it be lungworm? - does his breathing rattle?
A mineral drench and/or jag will do no harm, especially if he has shelly hoof.
Have you trimmed up the foot?
edited to rephrase opening para in case it put members off posting.
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He doesn't have maggots does he? Sometimes they are not so obvious, you may just see a damper looking bit of wool. They are not always on the back end either, quite often can be around the shoulders. Otherwise not sure, he's obviously unwell, if it were me I'd give hm a jab of LA penicillin and worm him.
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Otherwise not sure, he's obviously unwell, if it were me I'd give hm a jab of LA penicillin and worm him.
Please don't just give antibiotics to any animal that is a little off colour. I can absolutely guarantee that your vet would not dispense LA Pen & Strep if s/he knew that you did that.
If you want a general 'helps in all circs' med, use a mineral drench / jag.
It's a good point about the maggots, sbom - usually you see twitching, grey damp fleece and there's a characteristic smell, but sometimes none of these signs are spotted. And if LG hasn't closely inspected the feet, that could be where the maggots are.
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Only once have I had a sheep isolate itself and that was when she had a tiny patch of strike deep into the wool. Luckily I got it straight away before it had damaged her skin but she was the same...ears down, facing away from me, well away from flock.... except she wasn't dirty. But the patch of strike was smelly. Eww!
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You could always ring the vet - costs nowt and usually they can give you pretty good advice.
I wouldn't cost up call-outs on a per animal basis, its whether your enterprise can justify the number of call-outs as a whole.
I'm wondering if its flystrike too, if it isn't panting/scouring.
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Sorry :sofa: don't shoot! It's not my lamb so won't be jabbing it with anything! Sounds pretty sick though, if there's nothing obvious it really wants taking down to the vets asap as it won't hang on for long if it's thin aswell.
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now dont shout at me...but if ur animal is sick and u cant afford / wont afford the vet bills, the knackerman can cull them for you and remove the body. just an option. :knit:
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now dont shout at me...but if ur animal is sick and u cant afford / wont afford the vet bills, the knackerman can cull them for you and remove the body. just an option. :knit:
You can shoot it yourself in my book, just as long as it isn't suffering.
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The whole affording thing.... loads of people tell me I should make my hobby into an 'enterprise' which is kinda a nice idea HOWEVER... then I just feel i would be worrying and number crunching. By keeping it as my hobby, when I have an expense, I simply say to myself and others "OH well, I don't smoke or drink - this is my lifeline and my hobby so its worth any expense!" I do feel I would not be anywhere near at ease if I made it into a business.
Slightly (!??!) of tangent here, but the comments above were very though provoking for me! :-\
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p.s when you talk of 'knackerman' is that the person who picks up deadstick - do they cull too? Or do you mean abattoir guy?
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LOL....deadstOck even... not deadstick! Hahaahah!
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I took a lamb to the vet. Cost with treatment ..... abscess ..... £13. I know call outs are expensive but it may not be as bad as you think if you take the lamb there.
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Yep, most deadstock men will cull too
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And if LG hasn't closely inspected the feet, that could be where the maggots are.
maggots in the feet?? really? - havent heard that before. :-\
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The knackerman round here will come and shoot then take it away but do charge for it, only a fiver for a sheep I think, not had one for years. The local hunt will aswell and they take for free ( they don't go to everyone though ) and not sure if the take sheep :thinking: think it's jus calves come to think of it
Maggots in the feet is gross, seen it a lot in cows aswell.
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And if LG hasn't closely inspected the feet, that could be where the maggots are.
maggots in the feet?? really? - havent heard that before. :-\
Apparently it's pretty common...esp in the wet horrid footrot conditions we have been having. Doesn't help that sheep step in their own poo. The combination of rotting flesh and poo smell drives laying flies wild with delight! Eurgg!
i took a lamb to the vet a couple of months ao after she spiked herself. i had cut back the fleece, bathed with salt water and just needed an antibiotic spray or jab as it was a bit smelly inside the wound. The vet took me into the small animal side, rebathed the wound, pulled the scab off and without antibiotics it cost me £42!!! Moral of the story...... KEEP AWAY FROM THE SMALL ANIMAL SIDE AT THE VETS!!!! LOL
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p.s when you talk of 'knackerman' is that the person who picks up deadstick - do they cull too? Or do you mean abattoir guy?
knackerman is the man that collects the dead bodies which u will get at one point or other if u have livestock.
they will kill for u, if the animals are fit for slaughter etc.
u cant send certain animals to slaughter ie they r on medication, not fit for travel, or too thin etc.
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thanks mallows, :wave:
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thanks mallows, :wave:
:wave: :wave: :wave:
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I wouldn't cost up call-outs on a per animal basis, its whether your enterprise can justify the number of call-outs as a whole.
Absolutely.
The whole affording thing.... loads of people tell me I should make my hobby into an 'enterprise' which is kinda a nice idea HOWEVER... then I just feel i would be worrying and number crunching. By keeping it as my hobby, when I have an expense, I simply say to myself and others "OH well, I don't smoke or drink - this is my lifeline and my hobby so its worth any expense!" I do feel I would not be anywhere near at ease if I made it into a business.
Slightly (!??!) of tangent here, but the comments above were very though provoking for me! :-\
And that's how it's done, Mallows. Our enterprise is on sufficient a scale that we absorb vet fees as a necessary cost. We do take animals to the vet rather than calling them out if appropriate, but we do not consider the individual value of an animal when deciding whether or not it needs the vet. We may of course decide to cull an animal rather than embark on a course of treatment, but generally this is more with the animal's future welfare in mind rather than the specific £numbers.
One of the hardest decisions I've had to make was whether to get some bionic surgery for a collie with a broken bone inside his elbow. After a sleepless night weighing up the alternatives, I called the vet to say I did not think it was in the dog's or my best interests to go ahead with such an operation. Since the only alternatives I'd been given were destruction or a life of pain, I took him to the vet's to say goodbye to him. By the time I got there, they'd had a conference and decided to offer a much more pragmatic, simple op, with a much shorter recovery time and, importantly, a recognition that a working collie needs to work and will, out of choice, ignore quite a bit of pain in order to do so. And yes, the simpler op was significantly cheaper too.
Every single day, I hug that collie dog with his dodgy elbow, and he and I both give thanks for that sensible vet and his second opinion. :relief:
Sorry, I've topic-hijacked. Anyway, the point was, as Steve says, farmers make whole-flock or whole-herd husbandry decisions on a veterinary basis; they do not withhold individual treatments on a financial basis.
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Well if it's strike you ought to be able to sniff it out - I once found strike in a sheeps armpit.
I would certainly phone the vets for advice first - it's one of the ways I use to get my moneys worth out of them ;) .
One of the hardest decisions I've had to make was whether to get some bionic surgery for a collie with a broken bone inside his elbow. After a sleepless night weighing up the alternatives, I called the vet to say I did not think it was in the dog's or my best interests to go ahead with such an operation. Since the only alternatives I'd been given were destruction or a life of pain, I took him to the vet's to say goodbye to him. By the time I got there, they'd had a conference and decided to offer a much more pragmatic, simple op, with a much shorter recovery time and, importantly, a recognition that a working collie needs to work and will, out of choice, ignore quite a bit of pain in order to do so. And yes, the simpler op was significantly cheaper too.
Every single day, I hug that collie dog with his dodgy elbow, and he and I both give thanks for that sensible vet and his second opinion. (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/Smileys/default/relief.gif)
With pet animals I think vets sometimes default to the most expensive option - esp. if they assume it's insured.
I must admit I've been reluctant to turn to a vet at times - mostly because of a time or two when I've gone to the vet to have then shrug their shoulders and charge £25 for the shrug and another £25 for antibiotics I could have given myself. >:(
marcus
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I'm sorry to be blunt too but that animal is clearly ill and you are responsible for its welfare.
Check it for maggots, including feet. Personally I might try a shot of antibiotic in some circumstances, but it's a 'feel' thing. If done and no significant improvement in a day, it needs taking to the vets, cost or no.
As has been said, it's part of what you take on when you take animals. If you keep to farm vets not small animal ones the cost isn't usually bank breaking.
Fingers crossed.
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Going back to the original question - <<Why would a sheep start isolating himself? >>
It is natural behaviour for a flocking prey animal to stick with the herd until there is something so wrong that he can no longer keep up - at that point in the wild he would be taken by a predator. So your lamb is ill LadyGrey, and with sheep they can go downhill very quickly and die.
Possible flystrike has been mentioned, and you have said that he has a bad foot. Another possibility is something like listeriosis, from which he will die without immediate treatment; blindness could be another cause, usually from conjunctivitis; he could have pneumonia, or Johnnes disease, or coccidiosis, or any one of many other possible problems. The only way you are going to find out is to take him to the vet quickly - unfortunately that hasn't happened so you may lose him anyway. We can only suggest possibilities here but it's up to you to seek veterinary help.
I am aware that some of the replies to your enquiry may seem harsh and to the point, and that you clearly haven't realised the significance of your lamb separating himself from the rest of the flock, plus his body language. What we are all saying is: your lamb is ill, you need to get him treatment quickly, and worry about the cost later :sheep:
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FW is spot on. Every day that goes by with you doing nothing that lamb has less chance of recovery if it's not already too late. Learn from this Jess, an isolated sheep is never a good thing. Check everything on your lamb, all his feet, (clean and treat if neccessary), look at his rear end, down his back and in his armpits for evidence of flystrike (you'll know!!), has he got the runs? (could be indicative of many things), check his temperature (should be around 39 degrees). At the very least try him with a mineral drench to give him a fighting chance. Is he chewing the cud, is he grinding his teeth (indicates pain). See if he's eating at all. Try with some hay, some creep, anything that might tempt him-ivy, digestives, dandelion leaves. If, as has been said, you can't afford the vet, at least do all you can yourself and then 'phone the vet to run the symptoms you've discovered by careful examination.
He needs you to act fast. :fc:
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First thought was maggots. Twice we've had flystrike here, both times the lamb in question took himself away from the flock and was miserable.
Have a good hunt through the wool, not just round the bum but all over including hooves.
Please consider all options, if he does have bad strike or any other illness he needs help.
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Bit disappointed to see one or two members jumping rather hard on a relatively new one.
Sometimes we may have taken on animals and then had a change in circumstances which mean we can't afford the vet, even if it were just this month because the car broke down and in two months all will be fine financially.
I appreciate that eventually some good advice did come out which is good.
Perhaps Dan ought to take this thread into his thoughts when he does any reorganisation. of the forum.
Maggots can be anywhere on a sheep if it's a ram don't forget his gentlemans bits.
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Well said, moleskins :thumbsup:
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Yes, it's just trying to get the balance between understanding that few of us have money to burn, not being onhand to look at the animal, which is really what's needed, and saying 'your situation is urgent - that animal really is ill.
No harm meant at all :-*
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Thank you Bangbang and Jaykay,
I've had a further thought on this for the OP. It may just be a case of breed. If this odd one is a different breed the others may be ignoring it, mine will not mix, even down to the purebreds won't mix with the crossbreds.
Hence one of ours was nicknamed 'The Diva' because she wouldn't mix with the others.
Also the wet weather may be causing Dermatophiliosis (spelling ?) This can bring them down, and later lead to fly strike because the smell attracts flies. The skin condition alone can drag them down to the point of death though.
Vet advice on mine was to wash in hibiscrub.
My advice after the wash though is to keep them warm and dry.
HTH
I've PM'd this to the OP in case we've put them off altogether.
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I think this is a well balanced thread containing some very good advice - from the start. That sheep was in trouble.
We have developed a good relationship with our vet by not calling her out but by phoning her and asking advice, and on occasions taking the afflicted animal over to her surgery. It's important that she works in a large animal practice so completely gets the money problem. But it's equally important that we use her time wisely.
Son's GF worked at an open farm where during a closed period an animal got sick was just allowed to die over three days as "not worth getting in the vet". One way or the other we have to intervene when animals get sick.
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I'm loathe to say anything upsetting but I have to agree that if you have an obviously suffering animal the vet. is the best option, Mostly they will let you pay a bit each week/month if you are in hardship but tell them this before any treatment.
I can't afford to have my animals insured individually but I put away a bit every month into the "vet's holiday fund" and if I need him the money, or most of it, is there.
Also, ask your vet if he will have a scheme whereby you can pay a little each month/week whatever as a sort of insurance.
Also, the only time a sheep of mine has taken itself off from the others, strike comes first to mind, clip out all the wool and have ready a maggot preparation. Lambing, though rare at this time of year is another possibility, other problems have been discussed.
But, for pity's sake don't put off getting help for your lamb or at least take him to the knackers. they won't charge much, a fiver or so.
I'm sorry for your troubles, but you must take these things into account. :) :) :hug:
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I know all about not having any money, like.
Like I said, it wouldn't matter to me if you put it out of its misery yourself, if it was suffering that much (and I have to be careful, I haven't actually seen the animal). I think a shotgun cartridge is 40p.
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Ladygrey - how is your lamb? :sheep:
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I am worried about the lamb too ladygrey. While I agree that vets are expensive ours will also give advice on the phone and sometimes leave medication for us to self administer. But it seems that you need someone to actually look at this lamb. it needn't be the vet, is there a knowledgeable neighbour who might take a look. the problem might be very obvious to an experienced sheep keeper.
My usual advice is as follows. (some of it repeatred by other posters, sorry) Make sure the lamb is not dehydrated, cold or breathing heavily. Take it's temperature, that will give you a clue if there is some infection and needing anti biotics. Check for fly strike everywhere. Tell this information to the vet on the phone and you might avoid a visit or at least take it to the vet as others have said.
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How's the lamb - and how are you?
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Hi there everyone, Thankyou for all your replies, both long and short, the reason why I posted on here in the first place was because I wanted to ask people for opinions due to me not being able to call a vet at the time or spend too much time with the lamb, so yes I knew that he needed help, hence my post :)
Im going to find it impossible to reply to all of them individually for reasons you probly understand :)
I will list everything below to try and reply to as much as possible
-The lamb has always been different from all the other sheep, much more aloof and has never eaten with any of the other sheep from birth, he was a "star-gazer" lamb, so if this was any of the other sheep I would have been far more worried much much sooner
-I did check his feet and as I said he has a bad foot but It was dry and no maggots
-My vet used to be a farm animal and pet vet, but recently they changed to just pets and moved the farm surgery to a further away location, which means much higher call out chargers etc
-My vets do not allow you to bring animals to them
-It wasnt that I do not have any money, I am just un willing (apart from pet animals) to spend more than the animal is worth (if you see what I mean) so if I am going to get £100 of meat from the lamb and he has cost me £30 to rear, I do not want to spend more than £70 on the lamb, I do not see this as being cruel so I am sorry if I offended anyone by saying this :( I dearly love all of my animals and they are tame and they love me back, I put them before me and they mean everything to me, however some lambs are not pets and are there to rear up and sell for meat.
-I work 16 hour days, I milk cows from morning till lunch time, drive tractors and rear youngstock all afternoon, and at the moment all of the money I earn goes onto my animals and not me or my car, If I finish work after the light starts to fade I cannot get home due to my car not having any front lights, so I have to call home and ask my young sister to feed pigs/sheep/chickens so unfortunately I cannot see my animals every single day at the moment (I hope you can understand this)
-These last few months have been a bit stressfull and busy, I have been in the process of applying for a tenant farm for the past few months (hence some of my questions on the forum) doing this in all of my spare time when I should be sleeping lol, I handed in the final business plan this evening :excited: and me and my boyfriend have the interview on wednesday, we will know if we get the farm wednesday or thursday, if we get it then we expand and I leave where I work now and I work our farm full time and I can dedicate every waking hour to my sheep and I will be there all of the time for them, so this is just a temporary system that I cannot be there every day.
Right so onto the sheep
I checked him the same day I posted this and found a spot (that I had missed :'( ) of flystrike on his rib cage, I have sheared him (he had really thick wool) and cleaned it all up, got rid of all maggots and flys and treated him and all of the other sheep with Crovect. I have rubbed wound cream into his sore and he is already looking better and going slighly closer to the other sheep :) :) None of the other sheep have any flies and I have sheared some of the long wooled lambs (they are looking much happier for it :) )
Thankyou for all your replies and ideas and thoughts on the situation
Jess
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Glad he's all sorted :thumbsup: good luck with the farm :fc: you sound just like me before I had the kids, I mainly do milking now and we are luckily to have our own smallholding aswell, keeps me sane.
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Very rational. That makes a lot of sense as a strategy - but find another vet. Pet vets x-ray your purse on the way into the surgery and remove the contents on the way out.
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Very rational. That makes a lot of sense as a strategy - but find another vet. Pet vets x-ray your purse on the way into the surgery and remove the contents on the way out.
:roflanim: Too true ;D
I'm glad you got him sorted, and for minimal cost :sheep:
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I have to say I am horrified by a vet that won't permit people to bring animals to the surgery. Ours positively encourage it to the extent that when I had a problem at a show I turned up with a full trailer on the way back for them to sort a damaged ear (tag had got caught up somehow) on the way back. I would talk to some of the local farmers if you can and see where they go because that kind of restriction really is not acceptable.
Good luck with your lamb and your tenancy.
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Well done on finding and dealing with the flystrike :thumbsup: Sounds like he should be fine now.
I understand the thinking about spending money on the sheep - I sort of try to even it out over the whole flock, but the fewer you've got the less possible that is.
Your nearest vet sounds like a real money-grabbing pain >:( Will you have a different one if you move (to the tenant farm?)
Keeping everything crossed for you for the farm interview tomorrow :fc: :fc: :fc:
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It sounds as if you are having a tough time of it at the moment Jess. I hope your business plan works and that you get the place that you are after.
Its good to hear that the lamb seems to be on the road to recovery. :thumbsup:
Sally
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Pet vets x-ray your purse on the way into the surgery and remove the contents on the way out. funny smallfarmer :roflanim: but so true.
This is good news about the lamb, but worrying news about your situation. Good luck with the tenancy application.
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Well done with the lamb :thumbsup: Bad luck with your vet :(
Good luck with the interview on Wednesday :fc: Do let us know how you get on.