The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: Perdita on August 24, 2012, 01:12:46 pm
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KC to accept Irish Red and White Setter/Irish Setter crosses
Created: 24/08/2012
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THE KENNEL Club is to accept registrations of imported Irish Red and White Setter crossed with Irish Setters.
The KC announced today that the Irish Kennel Club (IKC) had accepted that crossbreeding Irish Red and White Setters with Irish Setters ‘might become necessary in the future’ to preserve the genetic health of the breed.
The KC said it had made the decision to register the crosses ‘in accordance with reciprocal agreements with other national kennel clubs’ – providing they meet all the current requirements for UK registration and are clear of hereditary condition GPRA rcd1.
The KC will transpose the identification system adopted in Ireland (X1, X2, X3) with its own asterisk identification system, to identify the crossbred generations.
"The KC supports crossbreeding programmes which improve breed health, and the IKC decided there was a need to recognise dogs who may be born from such a cross in preparation for the need to preserve genetic diversity and to prevent associated health problems from surfacing within the breed.
"The success of any cross programme can be determined by breeders and breed clubs themselves through their future decisions to incorporate these dogs into their bloodlines.”
That's what it needs with the English Setters. The breed is dying and now people cannot get their bitches in whelp anymore etc. We said it years ago that the lines were bred too closely and dogs with health issues were used for breeding as they belonged to the "right" people. The only thing that can save the English Setter now is to crossbread and get health and strength back in the breed.
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I applaud anything that promotes health above a slavish commitment to pedigree. Well done the Kennel Club; let's hope this is the first of many such initiatives.
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I'm a hound and toy person so Dogandjo will have a better answer than me but in my experience (my niece shows Irish Setters) this may also be beneficial to them. The ones I've met, dear things all, have been singularly lacking "upstairs"
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My old boss had an irws for grouse counting. Really lovely dog. I also have a friend who shows them. I hadn't realised they were in so much trouble :(
Didn't know about the english either. I have 3 working english who are really fantastic dogs.
Helen
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I saw this in the Dog World Newsletter a day or so ago. I'm not really in favour of cross breeding of any sort - as you will probably have gathered from past arguments. :-[ :eyelashes: I'm afraid I prefer the rule of 'only breed with health tested stock'. I don't understand why the KC hasn't put that in place first before resorting to cross breeding. It may well be necessary if that doesn't improve things, but why not start at the correct place.
Stop all indiscriminate breeding, don't allow breeding where stock has not been health tested and vet checked. I know the KC doesn't have control over all breeding in the UK but it is high time we had laws to this effect so that only healthy dogs were bred - it would save such a lot of heartache to families who find out too late they've bought a sick pup. :rant:
But I guess if the KC have decided there ain't much I can do about it :gloomy:
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I saw this in the Dog World Newsletter a day or so ago. I'm not really in favour of cross breeding of any sort - as you will probably have gathered from past arguments. :-[ :eyelashes: I'm afraid I prefer the rule of 'only breed with health tested stock'. I don't understand why the KC hasn't put that in place first before resorting to cross breeding. It may well be necessary if that doesn't improve things, but why not start at the correct place.
Stop all indiscriminate breeding, don't allow breeding where stock has not been health tested and vet checked. I know the KC doesn't have control over all breeding in the UK but it is high time we had laws to this effect so that only healthy dogs were bred - it would save such a lot of heartache to families who find out too late they've bought a sick pup. :rant:
But I guess if the KC have decided there ain't much I can do about it :gloomy:
Hear hear Annie :thumbsup:
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Stop all indiscriminate breeding, don't allow breeding where stock has not been health tested and vet checked. I know the KC doesn't have control over all breeding in the UK but it is high time we had laws to this effect so that only healthy dogs were bred - it would save such a lot of heartache to families who find out too late they've bought a sick pup. :rant:
But I guess if the KC have decided there ain't much I can do about it :gloomy:
Sigh
Irish setters have been known for years for being thick as two short planks, so much so that there were cruel jokes made about the Irish bit of their name.
How sad that only now have the Kennel Club woken up to the problem.
Can't remember if I've said this, but you may recall my tale of the Springers bred with liver problems. Lady nearby had 3 of 4 die, can only imagine the upset and cost associated with this. I'm told that the breeder is someone well in with the KC
Sigh again.
The KC can hardly cover themselves in glory can they. Can we trust them to be the guardians of breeding dogs?
Spoke to someone last week whose son was short of money so they'd had the dog mated. My opinion on that?
Fortunately it didn't take, don't agree with that sort of breeding either.
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Doganjo - I can see your point but I think with some breeds it is too late to breed with only health tested stock. To start of you should breed only with health tested stock anyhow. But there are breeds where there are not any really healthy animals left or if you use the very few the level of inbreeding gets much to high and then you breed new health issues into the breed. Also there are some things you cannot test for like the horrendeous skin problems in English Setters. I know of several cases where neither father or mother showed any sign of skin problems at least till the age of 6 or 7 and then their breeding days are over anyhow. Also with the English Setters (only breed I really have knowledge of) there are hardly any puppies born. Why? The reason is not that there is no market for them as some breeders want you to think but that breeders cannot get their bitches in whelp (either bitch does not take, does not even have a proper season or the "stud dog" is not capable of doing his job or firing blanks. The few bitches that do get in whelp have on average not more then 3 puppies (very often only one or two) and there are also quite a few cases where the very few puppies just die or are born dead. All this is a certain sign of huge genetic problems - nature steps in to prevent disaster. So what to do, where to go? You either have to start crossing working lines with show line and they are totally different dogs or do an total outcross with either another setter or pointer etc. Not ideal and very sad but it is the only way. Otherwise there is no hope at all. Appart from the health issues this beautiful breed is also loosing its most important feature - the temperament. It is hardly believable but there are more and more English Setters about with a nasty temperament. Also the average age of death is now under 10 years!!!!!! Would like to hear your thoughts to these problems.
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Thanks for the PM Gabriele. I don't know much about any of those breeds except what I see in the show ring. I have never owned nor bred a Setter of any kind. But I HAVE judged a great number of them at Open shows.
As far as I can see from my catalogues over 25 years there are a good few breeders who seem to have no problems producing new young stock, and I must admit I have never seen any skin conditions. So I can only speak on what I have seen.
I agree entirely with you that no stock of any animal should ever be bred from without health checks being done. But I somehow can't believe that with the numbers of any of the Setter breeds all over the World that it isn't possible to obtain healthy stock. I have no doubt it would cost more - but I suspect that is the root of the problem. (as it is with most things)
In my breed (Brittanys - the breed came to the Uk in 1982/3) we had a problem with epilepsy in the mid/late 80's - it came in from France with some of the imported stock. Within a couple of years it was all but eradicated, due to responsible breeders neutering all carriers they could trace, and now the only rare time it is seen is from breeders of 'one off' litters or who have not deep knowledge of the breed. At no time did we ever consider merging the Epagneul Breton with another breed to address the problem.
I can see that in extreme case with a small gene pool it MIGHT be necessary, but are Setters really at this stage?? There are only about 4000 Brittanys in the UK, but a great many in France - our early breeders went back to France for replacement tested stock at some expense to rejuvenate the gene pool , so it seems to me that is what Setter breeders could do.
Perhaps I am simplifying the case but that is my opinion.
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That was quick, thanks you so much for your reply. It is a subject that is very sensitive and close to my heart. I have not got time right now to reply in detail but will tonight when we are back. Just that much: In 2002 568 English Setter puppies were registered, in 2011 it was 234 and the English Setter is now an endangered breed. Relly wuld love to get the discussion going, not trying to slant (is that the right word?) anyone but just am so concerned about the breed.
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Is there such a big problem with english setters in the rest of the world? They seem popular on the continent, certainly as a working breed. The sire of my youngest is an import from Italy.
Helen
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That's a very good point Helen, how has the problem been caused here,
my suspicion as you will all know ........... I won't bore you with it again.
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Reply to Doganjo
"As far as I can see from my catalogues over 25 years there are a good few breeders who seem to have no problems producing new young stock"
25 years ago everything was ok, even 19 years ago but the last 4-5 years it really starts to show. As I said before the numbers of registered pups declined by nearly70 % over the last 15 years. The numbers entered in shows are down by more than that. E.g. The last quarter of 2011 there were only 7 litters born
litter 1 8 pups
litter 2 2 pups
litter 3 6 pups
litter 4 2 pups
litter 5 1 pup
litter 6 2 pups
litter 7 1 pup
That makes an average of 3,12 pups while even 10 years ago the average was near to 7 pups.
At the same time I know of about at least 5 breeders that tried to get their bitches in whelp without any luck. One of them mated 3 bitches to 2 different dogs and nothing.
"and I must admit I have never seen any skin conditions."
You won't see them in the show ring. The breeders/ owners etc are terrified of being associated with a dog withskin problems, the hide it at any cost. The siblings might have the most horrendeous skin, or they put their dogs on steroids or atopica or it hasn't broken out yet. There are obviously also some dogs without any skin problems. Our Issy has never had any problems but 3 out of the same litter (which we bred) have it - so we had her spayed as it is in the genes. That's what people do not understand, it is not only essential that the bitch to be mated and the studdog are free of any health issues but also all the siblings as they have the same genes - a matter of phenotype and genotype.
"In my breed (Brittanys - the breed came to the Uk in 1982/3) we had a problem with epilepsy in the mid/late 80's - it came in from France with some of the imported stock. Within a couple of years it was all but eradicated, due to responsible breeders neutering all carriers they could trace, and now the only rare time it is seen is from breeders of 'one off' litters or who have not deep knowledge of the breed. "
That is absolutely brilliant. I congratualate all your breeders for being so responsible and comitted. That makes one start to hope again. Unfortunaltely in other breeds breeders are not so responsible and unfortunately only think about their short time profit and not the breed.
"our early breeders went back to France for replacement tested stock at some expense to rejuvenate the gene pool , so it seems to me that is what Setter breeders could do. "
One problem is that most dogs on the continent are either totally different in type and no breeder in the UK would use them or they are too closely related to what is here and some of the same health issues are showing there as will skin disease. deafness, hd, thyroid problems, certain strains of cancer to name only a few.
Reply to Helen VF
"Is there such a big problem with english setters in the rest of the world? They seem popular on the continent, certainly as a working breed. The sire of my youngest is an import from Italy."
The working breed is a totally different strain and in looks etc totally different. I think it would be a VERY good idea to incorpurate them in the breeding program but none of the big breeders here wats to do that as they know they would stand no chance with the offspring in the showring and all they care about is success.
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One problem is that most dogs on the continent are either totally different in type and no breeder in the UK would use them
I think that could be a problem - it is the same with those breeds that have split into work and show. I cannot count the number of times I have been asked if my dogs are from working lines or show ones and have to explain that mine is a dual purpose breed that is both.
I am so sorry about your breed, I had no idea the problem was so bad in English Setters. You are right of course, I wouldn't see any skin problems in the show ring, and if there was any suspicion then a championship show judge would be expected to ask for a vet check. So perhaps on this occasion the KC are right in allowing cross breeding between Irish Setters and Irish red and White. Time will tell. But I hope such huge problems never happens in Brittanys as there is no other similar breed.
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I believe the same thing is happening in Bloodhounds i.e. allowing non KC working hounds to cross with KC registered hounds to improve eyes etc.
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But I hope such huge problems never happens in Brittanys as there is no other similar breed.
So do I, keeping fingers crossed that all breeders of your breed will stick to health checks etc and just follow common sense. I think the split between show and working lines is very bad for any breed as the show lines tend to loose strength and health. What you want is a beautiful dog but it also has to be able to do a days work. That's what their original purpose was for and to keep a gundog just as a lapdog is ludicrous
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I believe the same thing is happening in Bloodhounds i.e. allowing non KC working hounds to cross with KC registered hounds to improve eyes etc.
:sofa: Which ones have the weak eyes ? The working hounds or the KC registered ones.
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But I hope such huge problems never happens in Brittanys as there is no other similar breed.
So do I, keeping fingers crossed that all breeders of your breed will stick to health checks etc and just follow common sense. I think the split between show and working lines is very bad for any breed as the show lines tend to loose strength and health. What you want is a beautiful dog but it also has to be able to do a days work. That's what their original purpose was for and to keep a gundog just as a lapdog is ludicrous
I so totally agree with you both - especially after what I saw yesterday - OMG Irish Setters that look more like whippets in wigs :o "Fit for purpose" no way would some of them do a days work :rant: In the past I've also seen English Setters that could barely run back up the triangle being awarded CCs :furious:
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I so totally agree with you both - especially after what I saw yesterday - OMG Irish Setters that look more like whippets in wigs :o "Fit for purpose" no way would some of them do a days work :rant: In the past I've also seen English Setters that could barely run back up the triangle being awarded CCs :furious:
I think this is happening in all breeds just now. Due to the greatly reduced entries(economic pressure), lower quality dogs are getting higher awards - and unfortunately it's people like me that are letting that happen - Judges!!!
There are a number of 'cheap champions' now. There are a few in our breed. But wait till SKC next year - bet you I'll only have an entry of about a dozen because they know what I'll do - withhold if I feel the quality isn't good enough. . You can bet too that if I award the CCs the dogs I choose will have deserved it.
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I so totally agree with you both - especially after what I saw yesterday - OMG Irish Setters that look more like whippets in wigs :o "Fit for purpose" no way would some of them do a days work :rant: In the past I've also seen English Setters that could barely run back up the triangle being awarded CCs :furious:
I think this is happening in all breeds just now. Due to the greatly reduced entries(economic pressure), lower quality dogs are getting higher awards - and unfortunately it's people like me that are letting that happen - Judges!!!
There are a number of 'cheap champions' now. There are a few in our breed. But wait till SKC next year - bet you I'll only have an entry of about a dozen because they know what I'll do - withhold if I feel the quality isn't good enough. . You can bet too that if I award the CCs the dogs I choose will have deserved it.
Good on you Annie :thumbsup: it's a shame more judges don't have the same morals as you - I remember being told by a judge "I would have given it to your boy, but I need to use his brother on my bitch as you're so difficult to get to" :furious:
Turned-out Karma sorted that one - he couldn't "do the job" & has now been retired :roflanim:
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I don't know all about the dog show world, so can only guess at the meaning of some of your jargon.
However it does seem that Doganjo and I agree at least partly on some things.
Bet you thought you'd never see that day. :D
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I don't know all about the dog show world, so can only guess at the meaning of some of your jargon.
However it does seem that Doganjo and I agree at least partly on some things.
Bet you thought you'd never see that day. :D
Sorry - for all you duggles (non-doggy folk) out there;
SKC = Scottish Kennel Club
CC = Challenge Certificate - basically if a dog/bitch gets 3 they then become a Show Champion & can put (well the owner ;) ) Sh. Ch. infront of their name - usually attracting use at stud/commands a bigger stud fee/puppies sold at a higher price ::) - you probably get the drift.
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I don't know all about the dog show world, so can only guess at the meaning of some of your jargon.
However it does seem that Doganjo and I agree at least partly on some things.
Bet you thought you'd never see that day. :D
Sorry - for all you duggles (non-doggy folk) out there;
SKC = Scottish Kennel Club
CC = Challenge Certificate - basically if a dog/bitch gets 3 they then become a Show Champion & can put (well the owner ;) ) Sh. Ch. infront of their name - usually attracting use at stud/commands a bigger stud fee/puppies sold at a higher price ::) - you probably get the drift.
And all three CCs must be from three different judges, AND if it is a Gundog it can only become a full Champion if it passes a Show Gundog Working certificate or gets an award at a proper Field Trial, whereas other Groups get their full championship straight away.
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I don't know all about the dog show world, so can only guess at the meaning of some of your jargon.
However it does seem that Doganjo and I agree at least partly on some things.
Bet you thought you'd never see that day. :D
Sorry - for all you duggles (non-doggy folk) out there;
SKC = Scottish Kennel Club
CC = Challenge Certificate - basically if a dog/bitch gets 3 they then become a Show Champion & can put (well the owner ;) ) Sh. Ch. infront of their name - usually attracting use at stud/commands a bigger stud fee/puppies sold at a higher price ::) - you probably get the drift.
And all three CCs must be from three different judges, AND if it is a Gundog it can only become a full Champion if it passes a Show Gundog Working certificate or gets an award at a proper Field Trial, whereas other Groups get their full championship straight away.
:notworthy: sorry Annie - forgot about that stuff :-[
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I'm genuinely not trying to :stir: here but if we only breed from CC or FTC stock isn't this where we run into problems with a small gene pool, health issues and nowhere to go to resolve those problems. Of course any breeding dogs should be healthy in many ways, but do we tie ourselves in a knot by putting restrictions on breeding as have been discussed previously. Does encouraging sterilisation add to these problems?
Discuss.
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Sorry I really have to stick up for setters in this country! Irish setters are not thick - not the working type anyway, and there are quite a few breeders of them in this country. There are a few working English around but not enough and they are fabulous to watch working! Gordons are similarly rare on the working side and just a few lines but some are being brought in from Scandinavia and other European countries. Maybe if the show stock are all riddled with health problems they may look at real working dogs to put some robustness back in the breeds... :innocent: :innocent: :innocent: Personally I applaud the KC for approving the crosses of IRW to Irish to get some strength back in the breed. Don't forget all pedigrees are originally cross breeds ;D ;D
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Shep - I get where you're coming from :thumbsup: . We have an Irish & 2 English & they're great dogs to have around - albeit a little selective of hearing when the're off the lead & ranging :innocent:
I believe there has been over-use & inbreeding of certain lines - due to their "titles", resulting in a very clear distinction of either show or working types, when the dogs should be "dual purpose" this is also exacerbating, if not causing many breed-related health problems.
I'm all for bringing the "types" back together for welfare reasons.
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Sureley 'health tested' is not the same as 'tiny gene pool'?
If you keep breeding like to like, even if you only breed from the healthy ones, you are constricting the gene pool and more and more defects will start to show up. Any animal bred from healthy parents where a breed or type has genetic defects can show up the defects, depending on whether the genes that code for the problem are recessive etc.
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An English setter doing what she was bred to do:
http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=26332.0 (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=26332.0)
Just heard of a friend who is showing an imported an english setter.
Helen
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An English setter doing what she was bred to do:
http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=26332.0 (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=26332.0)
Just heard of a friend who is showing an imported an english setter.
Helen
:thumbsup:
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I'm genuinely not trying to :stir: here but if we only breed from CC or FTC stock isn't this where we run into problems with a small gene pool, health issues and nowhere to go to resolve those problems. Of course any breeding dogs should be healthy in many ways, but do we tie ourselves in a knot by putting restrictions on breeding as have been discussed previously. Does encouraging sterilisation add to these problems?
Discuss.
I'm not advocating ONLY breeding from show winning or Field Trial winning stock. I am advocating breeding from health tested stock. That is from stock tested for those diseases that have been identified in that particular breed as being hereditary and detrimental to individual animals.
For instance, in Brittanys only Hip Dysplasia has been identified as a health problem, and at the moment, albeit skewed and with inadequate numbers being tested, the average score is 17. I would advocate ONLY breeding from dogs that have a lower score than that. It is certainly no guarantee that all puppies resulting will have good hips, but we have no other tool, and we should use whatever tools are available to us. I don't think the Kennel Club should allow dogs to be bred from with a score higher than the average in any breed. But again it comes down to spondulix - the KC would lose revenue! :rant:
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Don't trust the KC to discourage breeding from high score animals, Gabi's original English Setter had 1:1 hips , Rareridge Kings Cross at Silversun, but because he was owned by her and not one of the "top breeders" nobody used him even though he had qualified for Crufts and had a very successful show life, But they allowed a bitch with a hipscore of 74 to be bred from by a "top breeder" the breed standard recommends not breeding from totals ex ceding 18 in ES. :rant:
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Don't trust the KC to discourage breeding from high score animals, Gabi's original English Setter had 1:1 hips , Rareridge Kings Cross at Silversun, but because he was owned by her and not one of the "top breeders" nobody used him even though he had qualified for Crufts and had a very successful show life, But they allowed a bitch with a hipscore of 74 to be bred from by a "top breeder" the breed standard recommends not breeding from totals ex ceding 18 in ES. :rant:
& I wouldn't mind betting the "top breeder" was also an A-list judge either :innocent:
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This ism exactly the reaction I expected - from BOTH sides! It's an ill thought out scheme by the Kennel Club - yet again! And announced without full consultation with Breed Clubs - yet again!
http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/78170/1/irish_r_w_setter_clubs_dismayed_by_crossbreeding_programme (http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/78170/1/irish_r_w_setter_clubs_dismayed_by_crossbreeding_programme)
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Show type or working, is this not confusing for most people. If a a breed of dog is say gundog like the setter surely it should be judge as such. Is it strong enough to do a days work. if this was the case maybe there would not be quite so many problems in the breed. I used to show my Irish Setters many years ago but gave up when the dogs being judge and winning not only ran like a hackney pony but where so light in build that they were losing what the Irish Setter looked like. I believe that every working Breed should be able to do their job if needed. The trouble is the people who now breed for fashion are not only harming dog breeds but taking away what most breeds used to be for.
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I think that a lot of the gundog breeds are so far removed, i can't see anything changing. A lot of people who show just don't have any interest in the working world and vice versa.
I went on a shotover grouse day a few years ago and they were shooting over irish setters. To me, they are too small and just seem to get smaller. They look a totally different breed to the showlines.
One breed which does seem to be changing is the english springer spaniel. Certainly at Crufts, a lot of them seemed to have a lot less feathering than they used to.
Just my ramblings lol
Helen
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The working setters in both Irish and Gordons can be very much lighter and smaller than the show. I have a dual bred Gordon who has a working brain and nose but a show stature - he struggles to do a whole days work in hot temperatures. My purely working girl though is much slimmer and smaller and would have no problem in doing a full days work :-) (if I could keep her in the same county).
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Helen and Shep, the Springers I've mentioned in previous posts with the liver problem are a show breed, they're a completely different animal to my working bred one and don't have anywhere near the same amount of 'go'.
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When judging a horse class like working hunter I look at build, heart room, feet, good joints. why, a hunter may have to go 10 miles or more on one chase over rough ground. If they have none of these points the chance of the horse staying well and fit over a season is poor.To me any show animal must be fit for purpose and to breed a type of show dog not fit for its job of work its bad for any breed but I am not a dog judge.
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Yes, I agree that it would take an awful lot to get some breeds back together, but it could be down - and to take the best traits from both sides.
I used to have show Cockers, and I loved them(I still do) - but at the time we were 'townies' so the fact that they hadn't much in the way of brains didn't matter so long as they could find there way back to us on a forest walk. Then we made friends with a gamekeeper, got involved in gundog training, moved out of town, bought a couple of Brittanys - and our whole outlook changed. Our main reason for taking the Brittanys was because they are a dual purpose breed.
We are fighting some committee members at the moment to keep our Club Weekend, as it is a joint work and show event - they want to split it - that would split our breed again. The tail docking ban nearly did that already. Fortunately we also have natural bobtails which has saved that particular situation.
I would always advocate getting gundog breeds back to being working dogs that look good - my kennel motto is - Good-looking AND Intelligent.
I judge Brittanys in the same way as you judge horses,Sabrina - especially as they were originally modeled by the French breeders on the French cob Horse. (a statue in Callac, where the breed originated depicts such a horse)
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To me any show animal must be fit for purpose and to breed a type of show dog not fit for its job of work its bad for any breed but I am not a dog judge.
No, you're not a dog judge,
Perhaps you should be though because I think you're bang on with that.
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Quote from: sabrina on Today at 10:01:24 AM
To me any show animal must be fit for purpose and to breed a type of show dog not fit for its job of work its bad for any breed but I am not a dog judge.
No, you're not a dog judge,
Perhaps you should be though because I think you're bang on with that.
But I am, Moleskins, and I agree with that too. That is why I keep banging on about health tests for ALL dogs, whether gundogs, working, pastoral, toy , utility , terrier or hound/ All dogs regardless of WHO breeds them, should be fit for purpose.
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Well at last we're starting to see eye to eye on a few things :relief:
As you know I've always felt that we should breed from good stock. In my case a Springer who can do the job, isn't mental in the house, and is fit, intelligent and healthy.
I've never felt that just success in the show ring should be the trigger to breed. As has been commented on in other posts lack of suitable animals is becoming a problem so someone who doesn't show but has a good dog should be encouraged.
I commented earlier on the forum about a client who's son had their Springer mated 'because they were short of money' I know we see eye to eye on that one !! ( It didn't take by the way )
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The working setters in both Irish and Gordons can be very much lighter and smaller than the show. I have a dual bred Gordon who has a working brain and nose but a show stature - he struggles to do a whole days work in hot temperatures. My purely working girl though is much slimmer and smaller and would have no problem in doing a full days work :-) (if I could keep her in the same county).
I met someone in gordons a few years ago who showed as well as trialled. I never realised there was a split in working and show.
Helen
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Helen and Shep, the Springers I've mentioned in previous posts with the liver problem are a show breed, they're a completely different animal to my working bred one and don't have anywhere near the same amount of 'go'.
I know and have 2 working springers myself. I was just saying that they seem to be getting less exaggerated in the showring.
Helen