The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Horses, ponies, donkeys & mules => Topic started by: minibn on August 12, 2012, 11:40:45 am
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Hi
I am looking to purchase an Ifor Williams 505, as my little 3.5 horsebox has pretty much on its last legs. I have been looking at towing vehicles and really like the freelander. I am looking at an 07 plate onwards. I am trying to work out if i can legally tow my 6.1hh warmblood in it. He weighs around 550-600kgs. I wouldn't be using it for 2 16.2 horses. I know that the max towing capacity of the freelander is 2000kgs. Although it would appear that the 505 max gross weight is more than this. Does the max gross weight only come into play when u actually are carrying that much? or are you meant to have a vehicle that can tow at least the max gross weight. I'm a bit confused.
Any advice welcomed
Cheers
Emily
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IF THE FREELANDER HAS A TOWING CAPACITY OF 2000 kilos that is the max you can tow with it you have to weigh the horses and the trailor and not forgetting the tack in the back of the motor as well sorry :farmer:
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My Freelander TD4 53 plate has towed 5 large white x Duroc pigs to slaughter before no problem!
The best truck I had for towing heavy weights was a Vauxhall Frontera.... petrol! it was fab! literally drove like it was towing nothing! Amazing truck!
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they can all tow in excess of there limit but plod take a dim view if you are caught and if you are involved in a an accident (not your fault) you will be held responsible and the insurance is invalid
but carry on it is not my licence or me that will be paying for the indiscretion :farmer:
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Recommend strongly consulting Rog on the sticky Towing section of the HorseandHound forum. He is the absolute guru on all things to do with towing legals, understanding all the different terms and licence classes etc.
The info you will need to allow him to give you a definitive answer is (altho there are a lot of other Freelander towing queries already answered on the thread)
Licence eg B+E if pre 1997 full licence, B if post 1997 and no additional towing test taken
2 Empty weight of towing vehicle in kg
3 GVW of towing vehicle in kg
4 Towing capacity of towing vehicle
5 Plated MAM of trailer in kg
6 Unladen/empty weight of trailer
He's incredibly helpful. NB there are an awful lot of Freelander variants so worth getting his individual response. He also explains why something is ok and what can be done about it.
Heres the link
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=490195&highlight=towing (http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=490195&highlight=towing)
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I found that to tow a horse box comfortably esp. on long journey's you need over 2.5 diesel.
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Not heard good things about any freelanders, theres lots of dodgy ones about so make sure it has a full service history, everyone i know who has had one has got rid as fast as they could this included pulling caravans and pig trailers to shows. Also as Robert says if you only pull on the limit of their capability all the time wear and tear will be greater and you run the risk of plod taking an interest.
Mandy :pig:
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transit vans are good for towing esp white ones ;) i have had two freelanders and thought they were alright but they were relatively new the worst motor for towing was a TD5 disco towing an ifor DP120g 12-14 mpg and screaming its tits of coming up the m6 with 3 pigs on in second gear (auto)and only doing 50 mph the best one is my current motor that i have had for nearly 6 years tdv8 rangie sport goes like s**t of a shovel even with 3.5 tons on its but and could outdrag these dicks that try to get in front at the traffic lights and that was loaded or with a caravan on A BIG CARAVAN :farmer:
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The simple answer is yes you can!
The 505 weighs 1000kg, the horse adds 600kg, tack and water another 100kg at most. So you're perfectly fine to tow with a 2000kg limited Freelander. I am assuming you're not charging other people or moving livestock. Business use and farm animals have complex rules, tests to be passed, driver hours, space per animal, distances travelled.
The plate on the 505 shows its capacity. From memory the max loaded weight of a 505 is about 2500, so you could carry 1500kg of load over and above the trailer weight - more horse than you can physically get into it. However, you'd then need a tow car with more grunt.
The real fun comes with horse lorries which around here attract officials like flies to sh*t
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I looked in to this recently and thought that your towing car should be able to tow the max weight of your trailer regardless if you are way under weight. Look into it closley as insurance companies will look for any 'out' if you have an accident.
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i got caught 1 mile from thainstone i had 4 beasts and was just over £60 fine van beyond well over £150 spot fine first thing in the morning and remember you have to take out the stock and go back to fetch it .
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I looked in to this recently and thought that your towing car should be able to tow the max weight of your trailer regardless if you are way under weight. Look into it closley as insurance companies will look for any 'out' if you have an accident.
Although lazy police try to get people on this, as it is too much effort to take them to a weigh bridge, it is the actual weight that is the legal issue, not the theoretical capacity.
I would recommend anyone who has issues with officious officials or police in this respect to refer them to the VOSA horsebox guide which is very explicit on this
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Horsebox%20Guide%20low%20res.pdf (http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Horsebox%20Guide%20low%20res.pdf)
"It is perfectly acceptable for a goods vehicle to be used with a maximum plated train weight of less than the combined plated gross weights of the vehicle and trailer, as long as the trailer isn’t actually loaded to the extent that its actual weight would exceed the maximum threshold of the towing vehicle’s maximum plated train weight.
For example, a towing vehicle with a plated gross weight of 3 tonnes and a plated train weight of 5 tonnes, could feasibly tow a trailer with a maximum gross weight of 3.5 tonnes. However, if both the vehicle and trailer in the combination were loaded to their respective maximum gross weights, then the combination’s maximum train weight would be exceeded by 1.5 tonnes. It’s the actual weight of the vehicle and load which is important in determining a vehicle’s compliance with legal weight thresholds, not the potential carrying capacity."
So there is no need to 'downplate' the trailer capacity to match the vehicle (even tho some people pay good money to trailer manufacturers), tho it is essential to make sure that the towing capacity of the vehicle allows for the actual weight you are towing at all times.
The only time when downplating might be needed is (i) if you never carry anything heavy and never will and like a quiet life or (ii) if you have licence restrictions which mean you dont have automatic towing rights (1997 onwards mainly can normally only tow a loaded if they take a towing test as they didnt get it when they passed the main driving test from that date. NB there are a couple of trailer/vehicle combos which they can do, but the one quoted isnt one of them afaik.
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Thank you LM. This is a simple situation and the complexities of towing as part of a business don't need to be raised.
There's a nice short leaflet which sets out the rules
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Quick%20guide%20to%20towing%20small%20trailers.pdf (http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Quick%20guide%20to%20towing%20small%20trailers.pdf)
To flesh this out I just checked my car's VIN plate which reads
2510 - the maximum weight of the loaded car - it weighs 1760kg empty
5510 - the maximum of car plus trailer - so a 3000kg trailer can be towed with the car at maximum load
1200 - maximum weight on the front axle of the car
1460 - ditto for the back axle
My Ifor Williams 510 has a plate reading
2584 - maximum weight of the trailer
1292 - max weight front axle
1292 - ditto rear axle
I know the 510 weighs 1100kg so I can in theory load two 700kg warmbloods and their hay - as long as their weight is evenly split front-rear, which it won't be. The trailer should be nose heavy by 50-100kg, which weight is taken by the car.
Fully laden this falls within the 3000kg towing capacity of the car even if I've loaded 750kg of fuel, people and iron bars into the car. Not sure I'd want to do a hill start though.
The above numbers will all be smaller for a Freelander and 505 but the principles are the same. Note that the advice not to exceed 80-85% of towing vehicle's weight is a recommendation only. It is highly relevant to single axle trailers rather than the close coupled Ifor Williams twin axles which resist yaw and the tendency to snake which plagues caravans.
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It did need to be raised, because a subsequent post to the OPs raised a commonly voiced doubt : also the link/quote I posted is a complete document covering both private and commercial..
The significance of it (the quotation I made from it) is that it is the only official place in writingfrom the government agency responsible for the area that clarifies (for all users actually) that it does not matter whether your trailer can in theory (on its plate) carry more than your vehicle can tow , so long as you dont actually tow more than you (licence)and the vehicle (the rules covered in your leaflet link) are permitted.
This question about plating was the worry/quandary/insurance issue raised in PPDs post and which I was providing the definitive clarification for. Which is why I quoted it at the top of my post.....
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Sorry LM I worded my note badly. Your contribution was necessary
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small farmer have you done any towing yet i doubt it from your post early this morning tandem axle trailers do snake and yaw and especially with livestock in them shifting the weight about i tried a trailer once with just a small nose weight and it was all over the road at less than 40 mph i had to hove the vehicle further forward to put more weight on rear (air suspension leveled the car out) and after it was drivable at up to 70 mph
go on copart UK and see the volume of trailers that are writeoffs all are tandem axle and have had the load move to alter significantly the handling :farmer:
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You can always rely on Robert to be rude.
The hideous consequences of semi-trailer and caravan jack-knifing has caused vast amounts of research to be carried out. Unsurprisingly there are lots of factors involved, but it is a fact that a short trailer with a low centre of gravity and the load centred above the axle(s) is more stable than any other combination. The longer the trailer and the further the load from the axles the worse the stability because of the pendulum effect. So the basic design of the IWT horse trailers is very stable.
The double axle adds one advantage and one problem. The advantage is that that when turning the axles follow slightly different radii which adds yaw resistance from the tyre walls and hence stability: anyone who has tried to manoeuvre one by hand will know this. The problem is in the cart spring suspension which means that on uneven surfaces all the load can be taken on one axle while the other one lifts off the ground. This would cause overloading of the tyres except when virtually unladen
Nose weight is another issue which can be difficult but I've never seen anyone measure it on a horse yard in the past couple of decades. As Robert notes too little is by far the worst. The generally recommended weight is 7% of the trailer weight subject to the restrictions on the towing vehicle. My horses tend to stay put once loaded into the vehicle, but we always use the centre partition.
I've never seen a horse trailer with a stabiliser and rarely seen a caravan without, and round here horse trailers, particularly Ifor Williams trailers, outnumber caravans.
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how is my contribution rude smallfarmer the vast majority of towing vehicles do not have the tow ball set at the right height to enable safer towing and easier on the trailer
caravans are now fitted with a anti yaw system on the tow hitch which does away with the stabilisers
i have seen the result of the yaw on a horse box lying at the side of the motorway and an iw builders trailer being towed by a land rover 110 spinning right round on the motorway not very nice for both of them :farmer:
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I have a freeander biggest heap 0 rubbish ever
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they can all tow in excess of there limit but plod take a dim view if you are caught and if you are involved in a an accident (not your fault) you will be held responsible and the insurance is invalid
but carry on it is not my licence or me that will be paying for the indiscretion :farmer:
A new member asked a simple but technical question. Your answer was both wrong and rude, Robert, and you need to know that.
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small farmer first you say it is a simple situation then you change it to a technical question the reference to towing in excess of there limit was in reference to the previous poster it is up to the driver if they comply with the law or they don't not you unless you are involved with administering the law and if my post of the 12 Aug was rude why did you not say before maybe you don't like being picked up on points you are incorrect with that is my opinion just as you had an opinion :farmer:
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can we cool this down??? :gloomy: , poor newbie OP will be running for the hills and cancelling their forum account..
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LM it has been Indian rain piss most of the day the fields are wetter than they were before :gloomy: :gloomy: :gloomy:
the hills will be equally :gloomy: :gloomy: :gloomy: :farmer:
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better get this out I reckon :raining: :raining: :raining: :relief: ;D
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Hi
I am looking to purchase an Ifor Williams 505, as my little 3.5 horsebox has pretty much on its last legs. I have been looking at towing vehicles and really like the freelander. I am looking at an 07 plate onwards. I am trying to work out if i can legally tow my 6.1hh warmblood in it. He weighs around 550-600kgs. I wouldn't be using it for 2 16.2 horses. I know that the max towing capacity of the freelander is 2000kgs. Although it would appear that the 505 max gross weight is more than this. Does the max gross weight only come into play when u actually are carrying that much? or are you meant to have a vehicle that can tow at least the max gross weight. I'm a bit confused.
Any advice welcomed
Cheers
Emily
Recommend strongly consulting Rog on the sticky Towing section of the HorseandHound forum. He is the absolute guru on all things to do with towing legals, understanding all the different terms and licence classes etc.
Heres the link
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=490195&highlight=towing (http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=490195&highlight=towing)
I JOINED THIS SITE AS IT POPPED UP ON A GOOGLE SEARCH !!
Yes, I am the same ROG as on HHO
Firstly, you will need a B+E licence with a HB505 trailer and a horse that size
The MAM of a trailer can legally be more than the towing capacity which the vehicle manufacturer has set for their vehicle
The LOWER of the trailer MAM or the towing capacity is the max actual weight when the trailer is loaded
In this case it will be the 2000 towing capacity
Unladen weight of trailer plus the weight of the horse(s) and anything else put in the trailer must not all add up to more than 2000 kgs
Hope that helps
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Thanks ROG :-)))) Hope you didnt blush too much to be described as 'guru' :thumbsup: :trophy:
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Aside from all the nitty gritty about the rules and regs, has anyone ever actually jacknifed a trailer? I have and it ain't funny. A bloody great 20 foot long site cabin behind a 110 I used to have. It's a bad time to find out that the trailer brakes don't work believe me. Luckily no one was hurt, didn't hit anything though you should have seen the faces of the drivers coming the other way, and managed to drive away afterwards before the plod arrived. ;D
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there is not that much difference betwean averting a disaster and one happening just the reaction of the driver involved and the available correction space but to learn you have to be in that situation or feel through the seat of your pants nearly seen one yesterday a silage trailer loaded with woodchip going round a mini roundabout he just about tipped it over on us :farmer:
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We have big farms round here with very big tractors and they've been hauling big fully laden grain trailers at well over the 20mph and damn close to 24t. That's maybe fine on the main roads, but in the narrow lanes they don't have the brakes or the cornering to get out of trouble. Last year one went straight on at a bend and took a lot of recovering.
One of our neighbour's boys got his tractor licence at 16 and now at 18 is a boy in a hell of a hurry.
On that downhill run on the M4 through Wiltshire I saw a caravan doing a two lane shimmy for half a mile. Driver got it back though. Bet he had to change his underwear.
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Hi
Thank you to all who took the time to read my post and reply. I am feeling much mre confident with this towing malarky.
I have a B+E, so i have that problem sorted.
Now its just a case of purchasing the car and trailer, exciting times.
Thank you
Emily
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Don't know if this will be rea as its an old topic, but I think it needs some clarification.
Its quite simple, if your tow vehicle has a max towing weight of 2000kg, this is what should be the max gross weight of the trailer, regardless of contents; eg.
horse box weight 900kg
Horse 1 500kg
Horse 2 500kg
Total 1900kg
As long as the trailer is plated as less than 2000kg, the Freelander can tow it, but as its more likely to be 2500kg or 2700kg, it can't, even if its empty.
Think of it like tthis;
You get pulled over and VOSA weigh the trailer and you're under the 2000kg, how do they know that you are not going to unload and load up with heavier items/horses . . . ?
Now that VOSA have clamped down on farmers and lorry drivers, and in doing so, these have got all (most) of their vehicles and trailers legal, they are aiming at horseboxes, caravans and normal trailers!
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You get pulled over and VOSA weigh the trailer and you're under the 2000kg, how do they know that you are not going to unload and load up with heavier items/horses . . . ?
I can't comment on the rest of your post but that logic is crazy. The point would be that you are not committing an offence at that time despite having the equipment to do so.
The VOSA officer in your example could impound your vehicle because although it's empty now, it could easily carry more than it's plated for at some future time....
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Indeed the logic IS crazy, but I believe it's correct (thanks for the clarification Lets have a go - this is one hell of a confusing topic).
It's not the weight of the vehicle or trailer that counts, it's the "Maximum Authorised Mass" for that combination (see this thread (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=74466.msg599035) and the links in it for more details!). That's what has stuffed me up for buying a new trailer - I'm going to have to sit a B+E test before I can use it :( .
Edit - I've just gone back and re-read the rest of the thread. Why on earth can't these rules be made simpler? ???
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Yes i have indeed read that too, and seen many an argument for both interpretations. But the idea that you would be in trouble because you could later go and overload is ridiculous.