The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Pedwardine on August 02, 2012, 01:32:15 pm
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We have had dreadful problems as I'm sure many of you have also had this year. The grass was non existent then it shot up in no time and there was nothing good in it. The ground was sodden so we couldn't top and the temperature ambient so blowflies were rife in the warm and wet conditions. We had lambs with scours and blowflies have done their worst and been repelled by insecticide and further damage prevented by pour on. The lambs have been wormed, Ovivacced (albeit later than was ideal). we've taken the flock of the lush and onto their previous paddock, now with nice short grass, and are feeding them creep and everyone hay. Lambs with persistent scours have been given an antibiotic jab.
Still, however, in some poor wee souls, the problem continues. We've given a drench of 'Farmer's Choice', very similar in it's makeup to 'Multilamb Rapid' with all the vitamins and nutrients we could deliver in one shot. We're bottle feeding with 'Liquid Life Aid' to try and get energy and hydration back up. There are around a half dozen persistently listless lambs, grinding their teeth in obvious discomfort, eating tiny amounts but nowhere near enough. I've just been to my feed merchants and the sage therein, Julie, who I'd hoped who'd offer me a solution. She said "Call the vet, you've done all you can". Have I though? We thought if we took these few out and kept them separate in a nice bedded area with creep, water and hay readily available and monitored them more frequently we might just pull them through. It's high time we weaned anyway but of course we're concerned that being taken from their mums at this vulnerable time may make them feel more dreadful. I have to add their interest in anything, mum included is faint so maybe it would be fine.
HELP PLEASE!
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First sit down take a breath and have a cup of tea :bouquet: Then get samples to the vet and ask for coccidiosis test as if you have wormed, fluked and done everything else you can I would suspect this.... Lots of folks are having lots of problems and especially those with fertilised pastures or who are over stocked so don't stress, get tests sorted :fc:
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Thanks WV. I am panicking (and crying) over this. I so don't want to have them put to sleep. I'm phoning the vets now.
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What colour is the scour? Cocci is black.
I have one with hideous green scour now.... did have the whole mini flock of 16 lambs with green scour. I only let them have hay, a little grass (penned them in with a pre-bend shelter) and heaps of fresh water laced with ovithrift mineral and vit drench and they came round right. They did look awful for a while but they are gert-whoopers now. Good luck and chin up! ;) :) :)
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That is so encouraging, thank you. I did wonder with the Cocci as I thought Ovivac covered them for that. We're getting them over to a little sheltered area right next to the house this avo where we'll see them all the time and the vet can see them without too much hassle. Fingers crossed. We've lost one already. We don't want to lose anymore. It hurts far too much.
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Sorry but you cannot vaccinate against coccidiosis......this is not the same as clostridial diseases and has to be treated with vecoxan on prescription from the vet.....this is not digestive scours if they are desperately ill and you have lost one.....this needs urgent vet treatment or you will lose all of them!
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You say you have wormed them - but have you also treated for fluke? In this wet year fluke should be a strong possibility.
Also Intradine is a very good treatment for Coccidiosis - injections over a period of max 5 days and I have had total success with it for both lambs and goat kids. You need to ask your vet for it and they will probably have to order it in, as it is not specifically for cocci anymore. It works.
Also I would take them off all grass, put onto hay and no concentrates until they are clean. Then re-introduce very slowly, if you need to. I do not have my lambs on any concentrate yet.
However are these valuable pedigree animals? If not, please think carefully about rearing them if there is no prospect of them reaching the weight you need them at. If they had such a difficult start to live I think they may also not make very good breeding animals.
I wish you luck . And if it is any consolation, some of my lambs are still have mucky bums every so often (very green though), and they are not growing as well as I had hoped... the field is a bit of a mess too - you are not alone with problems like this this year.
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Sorry but you cannot vaccinate against coccidiosis......
Hey Val... am I right in thinking you can also use Vecoxan as a PREVENTATIVE measure for Cocci as well as a treatment? I bought mine before from an agri merchant.... was about £25 cheaper than from the vet!
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Sorry but you cannot vaccinate against coccidiosis......
Hey Val... am I right in thinking you can also use Vecoxan as a PREVENTATIVE measure for Cocci as well as a treatment? I bought mine before from an agri merchant.... was about £25 cheaper than from the vet!
You can use Veccoxan as a preventative by dosing the adults just before or just after ( not sure exactly when ??? ), so that they have a reduced output of whatever the cocci bits are called... Quite a few goatkeepers are now doing it to their dams to reduce the incidence of cocci in the actual pens/sheds.
I have found that for my goat kids (and lambs actually) it seems the ones that are a bit disadvantaged for whatever reason (for example didn't maybe get as much colostrum as would have been ideal) are most likely to get it, for goat kids it seems bang on 3 months, lambs are earlier.
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Coccidiosis is a parasite, the infective larvae (oocysts) are passed by the ewes who have natural immunity. Lambs can be hit extremely hard by a large outbreak and the danger areas are muddy gateways, muddy feeding areas/lying areas. Once you get a wet area poached it's cocci heaven, and it will always be there waiting for the next warm wet spell.
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I'd forget a test and just get injections for them all, from the vet, against coccidiosis. You have to jag them every day for three days.
And in the meantime, hay, no more muddy wet grass, which is just loading more cocci into them.
Not your fault, it's this bloody weather.
Hope they pull though, I've had goat kids very ill with it, in the past, who did. When they were bad the vet gave me a Metacam injection for each one too, which is a painkiller and antiinflammatory, he said they'd get better faster if they felt better - sounded sensible to me.
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WV, sorry it did read that way, the lamb we lost died from different symptoms entirely. They are a predominantly pedigree flock however. The four lambs we have separated at the moment are the worst hit. Freddy is a Gotland Teeswater cross as is his cousin, Flossy. They are bred for their fleece. Fynne was due to be sold as a breeding tup :-\ and there is a ram lamb due to go off for meat in the autumn. Freddy has baaed for the first time in ages this morning which gives me some hope. He's been absolutely silent for ages. There are others still on the field who are quieter than is ideal and who have scours but not as watery. Should I get them all off the paddock do you think Anke/Jaykay? There are areas which aren't necessarily muddy but very soiled over there (no grass though just earth) upon which they tend to congregate most often when they've a belly full or are putting themselves to bed. They like those spots as they can see what's going on from there. Often when a lamb gets up you'll see it has sat in a big sloppy poo which I know is not good but we wash mucky sheep when we see them. This is a seven acre field and there are plenty of clean areas however, it's just that Gotlands are nosey so will always get the best seats to that end! If I moved the 3 strand fencing which we have around the perimeter, they'll only do it again in the next nearest spot. The wormer dose was not at the rate for fluke also due to having just about enough for all when we'd set everything up :-[ . Some got Levacide and some Albenil. I know I know they should have all had the same but the next wormer won't be either of those. It'll be the bloomin' expensive one. How soon after worming can you administer a next dose? I'll mention the Cocci possibility to the vet when he phones prior to his visit and hopefully he'll then bring all he might need to cover all possibilities.
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You should be able to repeat worming after 7 days. I've had to do that in the past (and did this year), as if you get the right weather conditions you'll get a large hatch of parasites and the lambs will ingest a vast number in a short period which they just can't cope with.
What has your vet said so far?
As others have said, I would get them off the pasture and feed hay and a bit of hard feed twice a day to keep their strength up.
Do keep us posted :), I'd be interested to hear what your vet has to say.
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Found a dead lamb on the paddock. Nearly brought him over yesterday but he struggled to be free so thought maybe he wasn't so bad. Feel dreadful that we didn't now :'( . I suppose the upside is that now we can get a post mortem done and find exactly what is going on. Just gutted. Brought some more over here. A ward of eight now. Vet hasn't come back to me yet.
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I am so sorry to hear about the other lamb.....but I am very very concerned that you are not treating for cocci NOW! Its all very well waiting but its a serious animal welfare problem you have there.....
How many sheep do you have? On how much ground are they being kept? what is your stocking density? These are all such important factors! I have sheep in fields of long wet grass, we have rush pastures too and yet I have not one animal with a grubby rear end let alone scouring......and I am not feeding them anything.
I keep seeing sheep belonging to smallholders on small muddy patches......its an accident waiting to happen!
Sorry if you think I am being hard but I hate to see animals :-\ suffer
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Very sorry to here about your lamb :(. You MUST pester your vet. You will be paying them enough, so you should be getting a decent service. Get the lamb down there for a PM today - your problem is urgent.
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I'm so sorry to hear about the lamb.
As Foobar says, hassle the vet - this is urgent.
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Ouch WV!! Quite right to be firm with us but we honestly had no idea that it could be Coccidiosis until yesterdays replies and the dead lamb this morning. We took our dead lamb plus a live one with symptoms to the vet this morning to do a P.M. and examination. He's taken samples throughout the intestine and a faecal sample and we've dosed everyone with Vecoxan this afternoon just to cover for the (strong) possibility. We have about ninety sheep on 30 acres and we move them regularly to try and avoid these sorts of problems. We've NEVER had this before but we have had scours due to overlush and nutrient poor grass and we assumed this was the same again. We've been told by the vet that by the time the watery scours appear, the disease has a real hold and you can't know it's Cocci until the symptoms show. We know now that the prior grey runs we saw are a sign that Cocci is evident but now we will incorporate Vecoxan as part of our treatment programme as we know once the blasted things have revealed themselves then they will always be there. We honestly couldn't have known this was due to hit us. The conditions have obviously been just perfect for the dormant Cocci to surface.
We take our animal welfare incredibly seriously but you learn often by the heartache. It has happened before and it always hits very hard and hurts alot and we act preventatively afterwards. We've lost only one lamb (through a dreadful accident) and one adult (through not knowing about feeding male sheep differently resulting in urinary calculi) in five years. We have a comprehensive programme of treatment and we'd never knowingly sell our sheep short. We love them as children. What more can I say? We're heartbroken over this. I hope and pray that we can save the majority of our flock if not all.
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Pedwardine :bouquet: . So sorry.
I asked my vet about testing a sample for cocci after reading a thread about it on here. The vet I spoke to seemed to say that they don't test unless there was a problem with scouring etc. as cocci were always present in the gut anyway ??? . Think I will ask a different vet next time I'm there.
Hope you're on the way to sorting your problem and you don't lose anymore. :'(
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:bouquet: Sorry....didn't mean to be too firm but unfortunately I have seen it all many times and as many folks read these forums its for them as much as you. These things happen and it can be a steep learning curve at times, however being ahead of potential problems and immediately jumping on anything that looks out of the ordinary is a must with sheep. I am lucky as I learnt my trade from some very old shepherds now long dead who always said to watch the flock for 30 mins every day so you know whats normal and whats not and to understock rather than overstock....very good advice! :)
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Excellent advice WV. I totally agree. I'm often teased for spending far too much time with my sheep. I know, however that with observation comes wisdom.
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Pedwardine :bouquet: . So sorry.
I asked my vet about testing a sample for cocci after reading a thread about it on here. The vet I spoke to seemed to say that they don't test unless there was a problem with scouring etc. as cocci were always present in the gut anyway ??? . Think I will ask a different vet next time I'm there.
Hope you're on the way to sorting your problem and you don't lose anymore. :'(
Er, quite. Its the number of cocci present thats of interest, not their presence or absence.
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No more deaths to report but a couple of quiet lambs who may just be quiet in character but I'm keeping a careful watch on them. It worries me when they aren't alert and active but sometimes one I worry about at one point in the day is totally different at another point in the day. There's one I haven't witnessed eating in the hospital wing and who won't take creep from me or any other temptation. I have horrible thoughts that the stomach lining is possibly so damaged by the Cocci attack that he may be literally starving to death. This is the little fella we took to the vets though who didn't advise us to put him to sleep even when he did a very runny poo in front of him. Ringing the vet tomorrow for what we should do. Generally speaking everyone seems to be improving and I've seen more healthy little droppings around than previously. Even had some ram lambs playing and butting one another yesterday which is fantastic.
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Sounding hopeful, Pedwardine. :fc: for you.
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Thanks Sally :-*
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Have you got any of the following about, for that lamb that isn't eating. These are what I got my non-eating goat going again with:
ReadiGrass (freeze dried grass, sold for horses)
Flaked maize / cornflakes
Digestive biscuits
Sultanas
Mixed corn (for chickens)
Leave him a selection and see if he'll try them when you're not there.
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Brilliant, thanks Jaykay. Just going into the village now so I'll stock up. I thought about mixing some readibrek with complan. Have already put probiotics in the water but wondered about getting some yoghurt too. My other half now has pleurisy just to make life a bit more challenging...
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Right guys, it's been a while since I posted. Did yoghurt and sultanas etc, no joy. The vet had the results back from the intestine and faecal samples just yesterday morning. Mild presence of Cocci, medium worm count. He advised we re-worm with a different drench (had done yellow before on the lambs so we went on to clear) There was 'nothing conclusive' in the results but still four lambs lost yesterday. That's six altogether now. We had a boy die in the morning whilst I went to the vets to get steroids and antibiotics. He kind of faded away. Then another boy had what looked like an epileptic fit, frothing at the mouth and rolling his eyes. We asked an experienced friend to come and put him out of his misery, and it really was misery, but he'd died by the time he reached us. It was the most heartbreaking, disturbing thing I've ever witnessed. We had two others, a ewe lamb and a ram lamb who were both getting weaker and kept getting cast and unable to right themselves. We couldn't bear them going the same way in so much distress and confusion so our friend did the decent thing for us. I joined the Fallen Stock Register this morning and Crowdens of Newark are collecting our poor babies tomorrow morning. Decent people and so reasonable at such a sensitive time. Discovered a local knacker has ripped us off in our grief in times past. Bastard. Thanks for the posting on here people about this organisation.
It must have been Coccidiosis, I can't fathom what else could do that much damage. The fitting in the second lamb must have been from lack of blood sugars as appetite was poor. The first boy that died yesterday was one we'd thought we'd made a mistake over in bringing him across to the sick bay. He was cheeky and eating digestives and butting me and nibbling everything. He got quieter as the few days went by. I was up cradling him on Tuesday night, covered up against midges, crying and praying. I realised I couldn't function for all the rest that need me right now if I stayed up all night so reluctantly went to bed and he was still hanging on in the morning when I left for the meds.
I believe the rest of the flock have come through the worst and we've five of the sickest ones still over here who are all now thriving although Flossie is still very watery in her functions. Her belly is nice and big though and she is spritely so we have some hope for her. She's always going to be small and we have to care that bit more for her.
One happy moment came with me literally refusing to let our Dorking cockerel, Mr Muggles die on top of it all yesterday evening. Poor Muggles has digestive problems and every now and then we have to 'unbung' him so to speak. Yesterday was a bad day for him as with all our other stuff going on his unbunging was left far too long. We didn't realise he had neither eaten or drank all day but had just sat under the truck feeling miserable. He's usually good throughout the whole process but it was too much after a very tough day for him. We cleaned him out as we normally do, me holding, OH removing the solid lump of poo from his rear, then we vaseline his out tray and set him outside to produce the backed up stuff in a big explosive smelly way, which he did. then we left him with some food and water to get over the ordeal. When I returned from doing the eggs and corn for the chooks, he was in death throes. I wasn't having it, so I sat him forcibly in 'healthy upright cockerel' position on my knee and told him "NO" alot, stopping his head from exorcist movements. I got some electrolytes down him and held his beak under a dripping tap and then continued with same stance procedure until the 'I'm dying' movements ceased. This morning, he's crowing like a good boy and he's given me a bit of happiness back. That and some cuddles with my lovely flock. :sunshine:
I feel reluctant to lamb again after all this. It's really been just the pits. There's a kind of relief though in that I know now no more are suffering. I hope we can get past this awful episode and enjoy it all again. If anyone has any questions on the stages we had of the condition, which we weren't aware of at the time but with knowledge under our belts now are, please ask. I don't want anyone else to go through this.
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Oh, gosh, Pedwardine - what horrible time you and your lambs have been through. :bouquet: {{{hugs}}}
It's hard to piece it all together from the postings - I know what it's like : you're going through it, your thoughts about what's happening and happened are changing as things occur, meds are tried, vets and others give advice... it makes the story hard to follow. Quite likely for you as well.
But I do get a sense that your vet has not been quite on the ball. There does seem to have been cocci present, normal / routine wormers do not affect these organisms, and yet the vet was still saying to try another drench, not yellow - it makes me wonder if your vet is a small animal vet, not an agricultural vet. I maybe am picking it all up wrong, failing to piece it together correctly - but if not, I would strongly advise you to look for a large animal vet before you need one again.
But all that is for later. For now, you need to grieve, and to enjoy the other animals, and heal. Our thoughts are with you. :-* {{{hugs}}}
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So sorry to hear about your losses. :hug: And so pleased to hear about your mega success iwth your boy :relief:
As Sally says, time to grieve now and don't forget to allow yourself some relief it's all over, even if it's not the outcome you wished for.
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Oh Pedwardine, you must be physically and emotionally exhausted. What an awful week you have had. Sending you a :hug: . :bouquet:
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Thanks so much. It helps it really does. Bless you guys.
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I'm so sorry to hear that you've lost so many animals, it must be heartbreaking. *hug*
Don't give up though, it will get better. The fact that you still managed to save your cockerel even after all that means that you've got what it takes :) . Just think how much you've learned. Next year will be so much better.
I would be looking for another vet though - ask your local farmers to see who they use. If they are all using yours then I'd be having words with the vet and tell 'em that their service was not up to scratch. I think sometimes farming vets forget that 1 dead lamb to a smallholder could mean 10% of their crop lost, but 1 dead lamb to a farmer is just <1%.
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I think sometimes farming vets forget that 1 dead lamb to a smallholder could mean 10% of their crop lost, but 1 dead lamb to a farmer is just <1%.
We :farmer: don't like to lose them either. I don't know many farmers who farm by numbers, really.
But it's true some agri vets make assumptions about what a farmer's decision is likely to be. Not once they know you, though.
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Oh, gosh, Pedwardine - what horrible time you and your lambs have been through. :bouquet: {{{hugs}}}
It's hard to piece it all together from the postings - I know what it's like : you're going through it, your thoughts about what's happening and happened are changing as things occur, meds are tried, vets and others give advice... it makes the story hard to follow. Quite likely for you as well.
But I do get a sense that your vet has not been quite on the ball. There does seem to have been cocci present, normal / routine wormers do not affect these organisms, and yet the vet was still saying to try another drench, not yellow - it makes me wonder if your vet is a small animal vet, not an agricultural vet. I maybe am picking it all up wrong, failing to piece it together correctly - but if not, I would strongly advise you to look for a large animal vet before you need one again.
But all that is for later. For now, you need to grieve, and to enjoy the other animals, and heal. Our thoughts are with you. :-* {{{hugs}}}
I still don't think the vet is on the ball, for what its worth.
It doesnt seem to add up, some worms, moderate cocci present...... I've had all of this with this weather and lost a grand rotal of 1 lamb out of 180 odd.
Im wondering if its one of the colostridials that heptavac doesnt cover....
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Im wondering if its one of the colostridials that heptavac doesnt cover....
Or, vaccines don't work relaibly if the animals are unwell at the time of jagging. So if they were struggling with cocci when they were jagged...
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Big Hugs Pedwardine :bouquet: Change vets would be a good bit of advice, my vet keeps sheep so several years ago when we had a cocci problem he was on it like a shot and also issues a prescription for a load of medicated buckets to act as a preventative the following year. We didn't lose one and owe a lot to this chap. We had taken on some new grazing and the field was infected ::)
Don't give up, you will learn from the experience and it will not happen again......
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Im wondering if its one of the colostridials that heptavac doesnt cover....
Or, vaccines don't work relaibly if the animals are unwell at the time of jagging. So if they were struggling with cocci when they were jagged...
Yes.
The pattern of morts seems to be similar to those described if you get colostridial disease, although the symptoms arent so much.
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What a dreadful time you've been having, my thoughts go out to you. I hope now things will start to improve.
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Ok, now I've come downstairs at 1am as I'm so twitchy to reply to your comments...
My vet is wonderful. He is incredibly overstretched because he is so wonderful and because there is only himself and one other vet at the practice run by him who deal with livestock. He has called out to us on a forty mile round trip before he has started work of a morning and after he has finished at night. I can't imagine ANYONE more dedicated to the care of animals than him.
We had had scours in the lambs for a week or so after putting them on new grass which was very long. We hadn't topped as we couldn't top because the land here is clay and the fields we use are the site of the old medieval village and have so many undulations and trenches and are boggy in many spots in all but the longest driest spells of weather. The tractor just wouldn't have got far without sinking in. WE WERE WRONG in that we had left it too long before our first Ovivac injection(OH was in repeatedly poor health, rain had been incessant and we had no covered area to treat). The sheep had been on the field for less than a week when we spotted signs of strike and were continually working our way, sometimes repeatedly, cleaning up pooey bums and checking for eggs and maggots. We had one moderate case with surface damage to a wether and about six or seven cases of either just hatched young larvae or eggs found under dried poo on some lambs. We have had scours in years past due to overlush grass which is what we'd put this down to also. OUR CALL. OUR MISTAKE. We knew we had to treat against flystrike, worm and Ovivac. We were extraordinarily tired. We have local friends, also shepherds, who came and helped us with all we had to do on 28th July. Our first lamb died 29th July. She was struggling with her breathing following the treatment and we thought, because of that symptom that an accident had occured and some wormer had slipped down the wrong way. It shouldn't have happened but it seemed it had. We hoped she'd be okay but we found her the next morning with liquid on and around her nose and mouth. We took this to mean she'd choked and it was awful as we'd known it was avoidable with more care and precision. In hindsight we think she may have been the first case of Coccidiosis as of yesterday we have experienced a flailing limbed lamb frothing at the mouth who died in a similar body position to hers. There were still brown scours following our treatment so we moved the flock onto recently topped shorter grass and fed them dry matter as well as creep for the lambs. We hoped as in times before that this would 'dry up' the scours problem. We didn't know what we had before us but watery scours appeared which we had never witnessed before and we knew it wasn't a good sign. We contacted the vet on the Wednesday who was to come out to us as soon as he could. On Thursday we moved all our very poorly looking lambs to a sick bay we'd put up by the house so we could monitor them better. On Friday morning we had another dead lamb, rigour had set in so it had happened in the middle of the night. This lamb we had very nearly brought over the day before as he was runny (but not watery) but he was also very, very wriggly and lively, not listless and limp like the others so we'd left him :( . I think it was around here I'd posted(?). We called the vet again and he said to immediately bring the dead lamb and a live lamb with the symptoms over for the PM/examination. He made people with routine appointments wait as he did this for us. He said nothing was overly evident. He and my brave OH who helped with the PM, both noticed the stomach tissue was paler than was idea. We asked about Coccidiosis as someone responding to the post had mentioned it. He said it could be but he would like to send off tissue and faecal samples to be sure. In the meantime he recommended we dose against the Coccidiosis with Vecoxan. We did this upon returning home. Over the course of the next few days I've already posted about.
So you see, he did as much according to the info he was given and he was as quick as he could be. This man has nothing to apologise for and I have nothing but praise for him.
Can I finish with big thanks for all the love and hugs. Am going to mourn these wee ones for some time. They were such little characters. The little ewe lamb, due to be registered as Pedwardine Freya, was a particular sweetie. Took a while to come around to my wiles but was such a sweet waggy-tailed cutie when she realised, although I was a funny looking sheep, I was alright. She had a really good sniff of me, mostly my face and neck, before I was allowed to touch her. It was lovely and tickly and I miss her and I'm crying and I'm going to bed now...