The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Haylo-peapod on July 20, 2012, 12:16:12 pm
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The 'A level biologist' in me is luring me towards doing some of my own faecal egg count sampling.
I have seen there is a proper kit out there called FECPAK but the price of it for a hobbyist like me is prohibitive.
I have done a bit of research online and have found a FEC kit with microscope designed for birds at a fraction of the price:
http://www.brunelmicroscopes.co.uk/coccidiosis.html (http://www.brunelmicroscopes.co.uk/coccidiosis.html)
Question is, would this be suitable for doing FEC sampling on sheep and cattle?? The fact it is suitable for the identification of cocci in birds makes me think it might be a contender.
Even if I do buy something like this I would probably still get the vet to do the occasional FEC throughout the year as backup so this is largely to satisfy my own curiosity and also to keep a more regular overview of things.
Anyone have any thoughts or advice on this?? :eyelashes:
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I fully intend to: you need a microscope and a slide split into squares of a known size whose name escapes.me now (am posting on my phone or Id look it up. I think ill get mine on ebay.
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I can't answer your questions but getting the vet to do one sounds a good idea. If you take both samples at the same time you would then know how accurate yours is and it would give you some confidence to do your own in the future.
Sally
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I was thinking on this subject this week after sending some off for the vet to do.
What i want to do is get a microscope and the slides etc (probably of the bay of E) and have a word with the OH who is a vet nurse at our vets to see if one of them would give me a short lesson in doing one?
Very interesed in keeping costs down but not effecting animal welfare, so regular testing in house with a sample into the vets occasionally is surely better for welfare and the pocket!
Will keep you all posted on any progress and will keep an eye on this thread as im sure there are lots of people with different opinions on this topic!
Cheers,
Tim
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Wow... this company is not very far from me at all! I used to drive past it every weekend! LOL!
I couldn't take the not-knowing so havbe emailed the company and will post on here their reply!!!!
Lisa x
p.s how much is the FECPAK SYSTEM...ANYONE KNOW???
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Mallows S &P, Would they do a discount for a multiple order? ;) Perhaps we could have an online training session? :D
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Mallows S &P, Would they do a discount for a multiple order? ;) Perhaps we could have an online training session? :D
Sounds like a plan..... ooh I am awful for stuff like this...just wanna get in there and DO it and know all about it! hahah!
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My vet wants £12 a go for FEC is that normal / expensive / cheap
Mostly their charges on sheep are reasonable :D :sheep: But dear for the dog :o :dog:
Just had a look at the Brunnel website at just shy of £100 I can pay my vet for 8 FEC's for the price of the bird kit hmmmmmm
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Try abbey diagnostics
email science@abbeydiagnostics.co.uk
it does say for horses, but they do sheep and goats
it was about £6 per sample, email them, they send you containers, instructions etc, you send it back with sample and cheque and they can email you results.
There are some interesting web sites which tell you how to make up a solution etc.
I have a microscope, and see alsorts but can't see any eggs, but I then sent a sample off and it was only a low count all round.
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Wow... this company is not very far from me at all! I used to drive past it every weekend! LOL!
I couldn't take the not-knowing so havbe emailed the company and will post on here their reply!!!!
Lisa x
p.s how much is the FECPAK SYSTEM...ANYONE KNOW???
Ha ha, Brunel will wonder what's going on as I emailed them yesterday too. They said that there's no reason at all why we couldn't use one of their kits but that we should specify we want an alpaca kit (couldn't see that one on the website) as it will come with better size accessories for the larger faecal sample.
It was tricky to find a price for FECPAK but I 'think' it is over £1,000 (eek!)
Bramblecot - what a brilliant idea! I certainly think it would be worth investigating whether we could get a discount for a multiple order.
Mallows, let me know whether you want to explore this as you are local to the supplier or whether you would like me to ask them.
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Fecpak was from £800-£1000 depending on whether you got a microscope and if so, what type. Kit includes scales, instructions, reference guides, some saline, measuring cylinders, special grid-marked slide, sample taker, all calibrated so you know you're working out x number of eggs per gram of sample.
I've done a couple, it gets easier, but it is a bit of a witch's brew!
Is there any RDPE type group near you? We have one close by that is letting farmers "share" a fecpak.
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I fully intend to: you need a microscope and a slide split into squares of a known size whose name escapes.me now (am posting on my phone or Id look it up. I think ill get mine on ebay.
Think you mean McMaster slides SH.
I'm afraid I'm a bit useless at animal nematode egg counts. I know the common method is flotation and that Brunel kit comes with a flotation kit, so if you get the salt solution right I don't see why you couldn't use it for sheep etc. One thing you could do to test that you are doing it right, is submit a sample to your vets and do a sample yourself at home. If they get eggs and you don't you'll know you are going wrong!
If anyone was at the Malvern show I know they were demo-ing egg counting there.
Dans
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I work at vets and do my own at work :) . Or sometimes bring everything home at a weekend if I want to do a lot of samples then spend my weekend looking at poo :D
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One thing you could do to test that you are doing it right, is submit a sample to your vets and do a sample yourself at home. If they get eggs and you don't you'll know you are going wrong!
Dans
That's what I did, (via Abbey Diagnostics) but on the high magnification needed the microscope shows up so much flotsom, a slight turn of the focus alters what you see, I have pictures from the internet but I couldn't identify anything, just saw things which may or may not have been, nothing beats someone actually showing you whats what.
I think it's good to get a microscope you can connect to the computer, then it's easier to look on the monitor, and get snapshots.
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That's what I did, (via Abbey Diagnostics) but on the high magnification needed the microscope shows up so much flotsom, a slight turn of the focus alters what you see, I have pictures from the internet but I couldn't identify anything, just saw things which may or may not have been, nothing beats someone actually showing you whats what.
Yep helps to make sure you are infocus before you start, with things floating you want to be sure you are focused on the very top.
Dans
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I've only just started doing this. I picked up some pointers from guys on other forums, got a scope off ebay, and a McMaster kit from these folks: http://www.vetslides.com/EPGfecalkit.html (http://www.vetslides.com/EPGfecalkit.html) (I put an order in with them and they redirected me to http://www.microscopy.uk.com/ (http://www.microscopy.uk.com/) as a uk supplier). That site also detail suitable scopes so you can get an idea of what spec you need (100x mag with mechanical stage).
There is the initial expense, but having FECs done at vets or anywhere else the costs mounts up over the years.
That kit comes with pictures and instructions. There are also other pictures and stuff available on the web, e.g. http://www.rvc.ac.uk/review/parasitology/RuminantEggs/Common.htm (http://www.rvc.ac.uk/review/parasitology/RuminantEggs/Common.htm)
I guess if you aren't sure what you are seeing then you could post a photo on a forum, or print it out and ask vet for an opinion.
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check out
http://www.goatbiology.com/fecal.html (http://www.goatbiology.com/fecal.html)
useful stuff
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I have been in contact with Brunel Microscopes again today to see whether they would be able to offer a discount for multiple purchases and also to see what microscope they would recommend for connecting to the PC (probably a bit pricier than many of us would like to spend). Please see below their response:
If you have a look at this link you can see the digital SP_20 for which there is an alumium carry case—we could put together a complete SHEEP kit and would offer 20% discount on multiples of 5 Units.
http://www.digital-microscopes.co.uk/sp20ddigitalmicroscope.html
I daresay we could still achieve a good discount on a kit with a cheaper microscope. If we drum up interest from more than 5 people it might be that we can get an even bigger discount.
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If anyone might be interested in one of these kits from Brunel, please could you PM me and let me know whether you would be interested in a) a kit with the standard microscope @ around £100 less discount, b) a kit with the microscope that could be attached to the PC @ £250 (estimated) less discount or c) the flotation kit only (assuming Brunel would consider this).
Also PM me if you know of anyone else or other smallholder groups that might be interested.
Once we know if there is sufficient interest we can consider how best to proceed.
Thanks
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I would defo be interested in option A! :thumbsup:
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I might be interested. :wave:
Dans
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They have told me that they do sampling for free at my vets ??? .
Is that not the norm then?
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Not from what I've heard ITH, I'd take them up on that!
Dans
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I hate to be against the general consensus in this matter, but I feel for the vets that:
a) will be missing out on some pocket money here (a practice is a business after all and has very high costs) if everybody starts doing your FEC; vets love animals and their jobs, but they have to feed children and fuel cars too!
b) generally the vet that comes sampling your animals will know the farm/smallholding, the way things are done etc, and will almost always (exceptions allowed here, not all vets are saints) keep an eye out for other symptoms and general health check of the animals.
That is also why I don't really like the idea of sending samples out to a random company that does not know the farm. They will just give you raw data back and often interpreting is difficult. Even if they have a vet that signs off the results, they won't know the particular situation. This is where a 5-6 year degree comes handy!!! :-J
And, talking to the vets always helps, even if you want to pester them about the pet cat whilst they are sampling the sheep. I feel that most practices will offer discounted/free FEC if enough/year are requested/planned; they'll be rewarded by a worm-free smallholding. However I think they'd always charge full price if only one FEC every now and then is asked.
Just my opinion (vet school was super-hard!!) :bouquet:
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Having just given my vet a whooping £72 for postmortum services for one lamb (and for that to come back inconclusive too), I sure don't want to give them any more of my hard earned cash if I can help it. :(
The ones around my way are defo not short of "pocket money".
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Just a note of caution - please treat any "DIY" results you get as "indicative" as they will not be as accurate as a count carried out in a Lab by a qualified and trained SQP.
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SfS you are absolutely right and as other forum members have indicated it is not always that easy to interpret the data.
From a personal level, as mentioned in my very first post on this topic, 'I would still get my vet to do the occasional FEC throughout the year as backup so this is largely to satisfy my own curiosity and also to keep a more regular overview of things'. I'm guessing that others on this forum will probably do the same as they wouldn't want to jeopardise the health of their flocks.
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Just out of interest, and without wanting to hijack the thread - what do vets charge for a FEC?
Thanks
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It really depends on the practice and workload. I haven't travelled that far, but I know that if a practice doesn't do them routinely (i.e. small animals practice) might charge slightly more than a farm practice, mostly because they send it out to external lab.
However in my experience I have heard from "free FEC", as part of herd/flock health plans, to an average of £3-4 each (generally a pool of more than one animal, if there's many there is always room for discounts in my experience), to some higher charges of £15 each. However if the practice supplies more than just the most general FEC for round worms, that might justify the higher costs.
Also bear in mind that whatever the practice charges the client, there is always included a price for the vet's time (which is more expensive than a lab technician's time) and personalised consultation/result analysis, which a lab technician might be able to do (experience and all that) but generally does not have authority for that.
Maybe somebody has more specific info?
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Just out of interest, and without wanting to hijack the thread - what do vets charge for a FEC?
Thanks
Mine charge nothing, unless you want them to send it to the national lab. I believe this is now much the norm for repeat ag customers.