The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: Mickey on July 18, 2012, 07:39:34 pm
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Hi,
We've decided to look for a smallholding before we're too old to start! The magazines have been purchased and we are looking for properties so that we get some idea of what the likely costs are to be. As part of our trawl around the 'net I have come across this excellent site and thought perhaps I could ask a couple of 'early' questions I have.
- How many acres should we look for in a smallholding for it to be worthwhile?
Our intent is just to have somewhere to live and have a few animals, perhaps chickens, a couple of pigs and a few dogs. I'd like to perhaps have a polytunnel or two for growing fruit and veg but we're not looking to have a business. - Any recommended reading, magazines or websites for the beginner?
Thanks,
Mickey
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as many as you can afford you'll find ways to fill them, obviously a limit will depend on how much time you will have to work on the holding with other commitments in your life...
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Well, this website - lots of articles by clicking on the buttons at the top of the page :)
You don't say where you are, but we also run Introduction to Smallholding courses :)
The one piece of advice is buy as much of the best land that you can afford. You can change a house but not the land - and it shrinks around you. We started with an acre, now have 12 and if I could get some more, I would, so that I could have more cattle. If you have too much land to start with, you can rent it out - but you'll find ways to use it over time.
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Blimey you guys are quick! Thanks for those replies, the first places we've looked at on the web seem to have about 2 acres. My thoughts are that this is quite small and that perhaps around 5 acres would be useful? I don't know if we would end up with cows although it could happen in a few years time.
We are in the NW (Cheshire) but currently considering southern Scotland as it seems to have quite a few places on the market. Our intent is to take a drive around the borders as we don't know the area. We'll definitely consider the courses mentioned, my wife has already been to a few at the local colleges in Cheshire and enjoyed every minute of them.
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Blimey you guys are quick! I don't know if we would end up with cows although it could happen in a few years time.
Nothing else to do :innocent:
Don't rule out cows - they are luuuuvvely :cow: :cow: :cow: :cow: :cow:
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In my head I think that we will probably end up with the lovely cows :cow: :cow: :cow: So, any more ideas of how much land is a realistic start, would 2 acres be sufficient or am I right to think it wouldn't be enough? As an aside we wouldn't need to make any money from the smallholding, it is more of an enjoyment/lifestyle wish but it would need to occupy me for most of the day.
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Rosemary's right about the quality of the land. When we were looking for our smallholding we saw several properties that had very steep land, or very shaded, or wet or wooded. In one case, all four of these. I couldn't have done much with them however many acres there were.
In the end we have started with 2 acres of good flat permanent pasture. This is enough to raise two weaners ,two lambs, several chickens and lots of fruit and veg growing. We've just put up a 25x12 ft polytunnel and so far it is definitely keeping us occupied for most of each day.
This site is great for learning all that is needed. Also Country Smallholder magazine. Also worth checking your library for the many books that have now been written about smallholding.
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Sometimes properties with more land sell more cheaply than 2 acres. You can always rent some out. Good luck with your new adventure.
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Hi :wave: , If you are wanting to do fruit/veg and keep a few chickens, then 2 acres will keep you occupied for most of the day - especially if you have a nice polytunnel to work in ;D . But if you want to get into the whole idea of keeping pigs/sheep/cattle/horses, then you need to consider rotation grazing and growing enough grass to make hay/silage for winter feeds - in that case buy as much as you can! Good luck and enjoy the lifestyle :thumbsup:
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You will pay more per acre for better quallity land, `severely dissadvantage` is the general clasification for most of our area (MidWales) but it does grow sheep well, Another thing to consider is the seasonal changes, Spring starts in Cornshire and works it's way up country at 2mph , so , Scottish midge laden summers start later and end earlier , and winter is more severe and longer lasting, the gulf stream keeps the west coast warm enough to grow palm trees around the Largs area, complete with free protien in the form of all the midges you can eat + some, Property buying comes under a different set of rules when it comes to making offers,
There are still a few bargains to be had in Wales if you know where to look , and the NHS is free prescriptions and helicopter rides. Further south , Devon and Cornwall is a lot warmer. East Anglia can have the wettest , coldest , bone numbing winters.
10 to 20 acres will allow you to follow your dream, good luck . :fc:
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How exciting to be at the beginning of your journey!
I would absolutely echo the 'best ground you can' sentiment. I am lucky enough to live on an upland farm of several hundred acres. We keep a few pigs on the side of our commercial beef and sheep enterprise, but in truth our ground isn't suited to pigs; it's too wet - "severely disadvantaged", all of it.
I would think 5 acres of good ground would probably be pretty tight if you want cows. (You can't keep just one, they need another of their own kind for company, as do most species.) Others who are at that end of the spectrum will be along to comment in due course, I am sure. One thing they'll tell you to think about is whether you are happy to buy in your winter forage (hay, silage); if you want to make your own you'll need ground for that too - although sometimes you can buy a 'standing crop' from a local farmer, which might suit you. And if you are thinking about livestock, you will want buildings for storing fodder and for winter housing - they're expensive to build and need planning permission, so it'd be better to start with holding that has a byre and a barn if possible.
As to other reading - have an explore of the books listed on this site http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/books/ (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/books/) (there isn't a tab for Books, must mention that to Dan...)
If you haven't come across it yet, the John Seymour Complete Book of Self-Sufficiency is a great book. I'll stick my neck out and say it's completely infeasible to do what he outlines in 5 acres, and some of what he advocated in the orginal version is now illegal or considered inhumane - but it's still a grand book for a really good intro into every aspect of 'The Good Life'. As the review on this site says, "Every sentence not only useful but interesting." Just make sure you read it with a very healthy helping of scepticism.
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Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall's books are useful and well written.
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Once you get started you will want more and more and more and more............... and wish that you had bought more land.
We have 40 acres, most of it unusable in its present state (needs clearing and fencing), but still I would love more land, just for all the possibilities that would come with it. Don't be put off by land that is unused and has overgrown. You will likely get it cheaper and you can clear it with pigs, eat them, then seed it to have sheep/cattle afterwards (that's our plan anyway).
I second the view to look for somewhere that already has outbuildings. We are having to build a barn - very expensive!
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It's not so much how many acres you need, it's how much money will you have 'spare' after you have bought them to repair and renew everything that needs doing on your new place.
Take off your rosy coloured glasses. Your not going to earn a living off it unless your able to come up with a plan that no other local has going already.
If you find a place, besides the house look at the buildings and fences as they will add a huge amount to your spend.
Do not fall into the usual smallholder trap and carry passengers in livestock as it's pointless keeping an animal that earns it's keep to waste it on another that doesn't. Before you know where you are your a charity case for lost causes.
Stay focused, Check topography on the internet and save yourself hours and hours of traveling to the back of beyond for a place that is totally different to the speck that the estate agent sends you.
It took us 3 years and 36 visits to find the right place.
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Most places with 2-3 acres are priced for lifestyle ie a couple of kiddies ponies or some homegrown veg and a few chickens. It is possible to do more with it but most don't and the prices are high by comparison. My advice would be to look at 10-15 acres if you can, as that is more than most commuting workers can manage effectively and you say you want to be occupied most of the day - if you start small you can rent excess in return for help with management of the land and an experienced advisor on hand is a blessing when you start out. You can then take over more of it yourself if/when you want to, and still reduce again in times when you want less work or more income/help.
I started with rented land, then bought 7 acres with a small shed, then moved to where I am which is 10 acres with a house. For most of the 10+ years I've been here I was also renting another 20 acres and if I'd been able to buy more acreage here I would have - especially when I was also still working and had the money but not the time to work it ::) Losing the 20 acres was a great hardship at the time, tho it was money down the drain maintaining someone else's land and driving to and from it every day - if I'd found a place with 20-50 acres I'd have snapped it up but my budget was limited, even working, by the mortgage only being related to the house, not the land and any potential income from it. Buying adjacent land to expand is almost invariably impossible, so if you do want more, you're adding travel and time costs to whatever you produce, on a daily basis. So buy as much as you can acreage wise, everything else costs time and money but you can work on it or neglect it for a while, but you can't create it from thin air!
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On books, if you are considering sheep, we always recommend Tim Tyne's "The Sheep Book for Smallholders" - out of print at the moment, but should be back in print soon (and available at the Scottish Smallholder and Grower Festival).
Tim is currently writing a book on viable self sufficiency, which I'll be buying when it comes out.
If you aren't constrained by location, consider coming North to Scotland. You'll get a warm welcome (and I don't mean burning down your cottage :o ) and it's a good place to live IMHO. We also have free prescriptions, eye tests and dental checkups and a minimum price for alcohol ;D .
Make a wee holiday of it and come to the Scottish Smallholder and Grower Festival at Forfar on 30th September, meet some TASers and see a bit of the country :thumbsup:
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Do you have to be UK based? There is cheap property elsewhere often with large out buildings (if in need of a lot of repair) elsewhere in Europe.
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When we first bought our holding back in 2000. the offer was a house with 4 acres or house with 12 acres. Quess what we decided on, the 4 acre house and wish we had the 12 acres. I absolutely agree with the replies. Try and go for the larger acreage as you will soon fill a 1 or 2 acres plot.
Good Luck with your new adventure :thumbsup:
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Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall's books are useful and well written.
I find him a bit aiming at the yuppy market thats grown for smallholding, sorry but i find he lost his way and fame went a bit to his head and hes just one big moneymaking outfit now.
Saying that he books are a good starting place. As Sally says John Seymours is good but some of the practices in it are outdated and some are downright illegal!
Go for as much land as you can afford, you can always rent it out if you can't use it yourself. Horsey & sheep people are always looking for grazing.
Mandy :pig:
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Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall's books are useful and well written.
I find him a bit aiming at the yuppy market thats grown for smallholding, sorry but i find he lost his way and fame went a bit to his head and hes just one big moneymaking outfit now.
Saying that he books are a good starting place. As Sally says John Seymours is good but some of the practices in it are outdated and some are downright illegal!
Go for as much land as you can afford, you can always rent it out if you can't use it yourself. Horsey & sheep people are always looking for grazing.
Mandy :pig:
I've heard he's gone a bit money-minded but his book "The River Cottage Cookbook" is basic and practical and to the point(and aren't most folk going back to the land these days a bit "yuppy")
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Rosemary's right about the quality of the land. When we were looking for our smallholding we saw several properties that had very steep land, or very shaded, or wet or wooded. In one case, all four of these. I couldn't have done much with them however many acres there were.
In the end we have started with 2 acres of good flat permanent pasture. This is enough to raise two weaners ,two lambs, several chickens and lots of fruit and veg growing. We've just put up a 25x12 ft polytunnel and so far it is definitely keeping us occupied for most of each day.
This site is great for learning all that is needed. Also Country Smallholder magazine. Also worth checking your library for the many books that have now been written about smallholding.
Thanks for that Possum, am beginning to think 2 acres may be enough but just have this lingering doubt knowing how much my wife enjoys animals :-)
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Sometimes properties with more land sell more cheaply than 2 acres. You can always rent some out. Good luck with your new adventure.
Thanks for that, looking at some webpages of 'smallholdings for sale' earlier tonight and noticed the amount of land was not always a good guide of price. Much to learn :-)
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Hi :wave: , If you are wanting to do fruit/veg and keep a few chickens, then 2 acres will keep you occupied for most of the day - especially if you have a nice polytunnel to work in ;D . ....... Good luck and enjoy the lifestyle :thumbsup:
Thanks Bramblecot, very useful info for us as starting intentions are for chickens, 2 x pigs and 5 dogs, I've no idea why 5 in particular but the boss wants 5!
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Bear in mind the most expensive things to sort out are (i) fencing (ii) putting up any buildings you need.
We have 40 acres and 30 of it still doesnt have stock proof fencing 5 years in, nor is our barn up (mind you it nearly was but unfortunately there are some dodgy types in the steel building game :-(()
However, we do have 10 acres ish fenced, and 30 acres of uninterrupted views, and we can make hay off the unfenced part so it was still def worth it esp with winter feed costs rising and a poor harvest possible - we know we can feed our horses and livestock on wonderful hay.
We werent aiming to get 40 acres but having no neighbours within view is pretty cool (they are nice but its still nice to own your view).
I would say get more land than you think you will need - you will never lose by it as you pay less per acre the more acres you buy. And you can always rent it out if you dont want to use it all yourself.
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I would say get more land than you think you will need - you will never lose by it as you pay less per acre the more acres you buy
I agree - especially if you have a wife who likes animals :innocent:
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Thanks to everybody for their reposes, so good to find everyone very helpful - what a great community!
You will pay more per acre for better quallity land, `severely dissadvantage` is the general clasification for most of our area (MidWales) but it does grow sheep well, Another thing to consider is the seasonal changes.....
Thanks tizaala, I hadn't heard the term severely disadvantaged before, good stuff!
How exciting to be at the beginning of your journey!
I would think 5 acres of good ground would probably be pretty tight if you want cows..... If you haven't come across it yet, the John Seymour Complete Book of Self-Sufficiency is a great book..... Just make sure you read it with a very healthy helping of scepticism.
It is very exciting indeed, feels like a real privilege to be in this position. Thanks for the book rec, will look that up shortly.
Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall's books are useful and well written.
I will take a look at them, I have seen a lot of him on the TV but went off him a little as I much prefer his earlier stuff.
We have 40 acres, most of it unusable in its present state (needs clearing and fencing), but still I would love more land, just for all the possibilities that would come with it. Don't be put off by land that is unused and has overgrown. You will likely get it cheaper and you can clear it with pigs...
Hah hah hah! I love it, just the picture of smallholding life that I imagine :-)
Thanks for all of those replies, will pass them all onto the boss to read also!
Mickey
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It's not so much how many acres you need, it's how much money will you have 'spare' after you have bought them to repair and renew everything that needs doing on your new place.
Take off your rosy coloured glasses. Your not going to earn a living off it unless your able to come up with a plan that no other local has going already.
If you find a place, besides the house look at the buildings and fences as they will add a huge amount to your spend.
Do not fall into the usual smallholder trap and carry passengers in livestock as it's pointless keeping an animal that earns it's keep to waste it on another that doesn't. Before you know where you are your a charity case for lost causes.
Stay focused, Check topography on the internet and save yourself hours and hours of traveling to the back of beyond for a place that is totally different to the speck that the estate agent sends you.
It took us 3 years and 36 visits to find the right place.
Thanks Castle Farm,
I was initially a bit miffed you thought we had rosy coloured glasses but your post is really helpful and full of good stuff, I'm not sure we will avoid the animal passenger trap though as part of the life for us will be to do our best for them. We are not looking for a business but a lifestyle that offers a healthier way of living. The bit about 3 years and 36 visits to find your right place did help us not feel so desperate to find somewhere, you are absolutely right that we should take our time.
Regards,
Mickey
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Most places with 2-3 acres are priced for lifestyle ie a couple of kiddies ponies or some homegrown veg and a few chickens. It is possible to do more with it but most don't and the prices are high by comparison. My advice would be to look at 10-15 acres if you can,
I'm getting the feel that starting with a couple of acres will only see us look for something bigger later, I need to visualise just how much a couple of acres is and compare it to 10. I'd like some space for a nice garden by the house so wonder if 2 acres would soon become 1 as the other half of it became lost to my garden!
On books, if you are considering sheep, we always recommend Tim Tyne's "The Sheep Book for Smallholders" - out of print at the moment, but should be back in print soon (and available at the Scottish Smallholder and Grower Festival).
Tim is currently writing a book on viable self sufficiency, which I'll be buying when it comes out.
If you aren't constrained by location, consider coming North to Scotland. You'll get a warm welcome (and I don't mean burning down your cottage :o ) and it's a good place to live IMHO. We also have free prescriptions, eye tests and dental checkups and a minimum price for alcohol ;D .
Make a wee holiday of it and come to the Scottish Smallholder and Grower Festival at Forfar on 30th September, meet some TASers and see a bit of the country :thumbsup:
Do you have to be UK based? There is cheap property elsewhere often with large out buildings (if in need of a lot of repair) elsewhere in Europe.
I think UK yes, whilst we have travelled quite a lot out thought is UK or Australia, but seeing as Oz make it difficult to emigrate it will be the UK.
When we first bought our holding back in 2000. the offer was a house with 4 acres or house with 12 acres. Quess what we decided on, the 4 acre house and wish we had the 12 acres. I absolutely agree with the replies. Try and go for the larger acreage as you will soon fill a 1 or 2 acres plot.
Good Luck with your new adventure :thumbsup:
Thanks Goat-Lady, I love the sound of 12 acres for some reason :-)
Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall's books are useful and well written.
I find him a bit aiming at the yuppy market thats grown for smallholding, sorry but i find he lost his way and fame went a bit to his head and hes just one big moneymaking outfit now.
That's how I have been finding him of late, but perhaps his earlier work will be good for me to read.
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If you aren't constrained by location, consider coming North to Scotland.
You'll get a warm welcome (and I don't mean burning down your cottage :o ) and it's a good place to live IMHO.
Make a wee holiday of it and come to the Scottish Smallholder and Grower Festival at Forfar on 30th September
Thanks Rosemary,
I have put the sheep book in my list to read.
We are looking at Scotland with a slight preference for the Borders area simply due to its location as it would be possible for us to research the area and properties easier due to its proximity to where we live in Cheshire. The area that keeps popping up on property searches is Dumfries and Galloway but I have been a bit 'put off' by the number of windmills going up in the area and therefore wonder if that is why property is so readily available in the region. :o
I'd have no problem going further into Scotland also, we don't know the areas very well and are thinking that we need to be careful of things like the locations, weather, future developments etc. There are some really good maps of the wind turbines going up in the Stranraer area and the whole thing has us a little concerned - well me at least :-)
The Festival sounds a good idea, getting the time off work may be difficult but it's in the diary as a possibility. Will you have a stand there?
Thanks so much for your kind help,
Mickey
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Are you scared yet, or just exited to get on with it.
We bought the first farm we looked at. Amazingly cheap in mid wales. 100 acres with buildings, but for the first year we rented some to a neighbour until we built our flock of sheep up. This acreage sounds a lot, but it is all above 1,000feet so the grass doesn't grow until may and it is difficult to grow veg. Sheep love it and the horses don't get laminitis!
Try to see the place with a view to what it wil be like in winter and how wet the flat bits are! We are happy with our place and have managed to rent more flat ground for haylage.
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Sounds exciting and I wish you well with your plans. I reckon that John Seymour's book is worth reading for the entertainment value alone but he does have some good advice. Just do as others say and be careful.
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Well it took almost 3 years and lots of trips all over Scotland before we finally settled on a property with 22 acres in Dumfries & Galloway. I would have preferred the Highlands or Rosshire areas which I found stunning but the right combination of land and house was not easily found. We move into the new home next week although initially I will be going back down to Cheshire whilst finishing off at work etc.
Thanks to everyone who has read my posts and passed on the excellent advice and suggestions over several subjects such as fencing and acreage etc. Also a big thank you to Kirsty and Mark for showing us around their home and giving us a much needed insight into smallholdings. https://www.facebook.com/WellsideCroft?fref=ts (https://www.facebook.com/WellsideCroft?fref=ts)
I hope you guys are ready for an avalanche of questions now that we are finally making that dream move :-)
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Well done that man :thumbsup: I was going to say" you will never regret it", but you surely will some wet, freezing mornings when your wellies are sucked off in the mud, your sheep/goats/cattle are where they shouldn't be and all going in different directions and your pigs are in your neighbours veg garden :o :o :o ;D ;D
Seriously though, I wish you all the success and happiness in the world. You will find all the support, help and advice you need on here and never be afraid to ask for help with your neighbouring farmers, they will give their help and advice and friendship as surely as we will. :thumbsup: :trophy: :pig: :chook: :dog: :goat: :cow: :hshoe:
Sylvia
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Many thanks devonlady, much appreciate that as we battle the nerves :-)
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It's so good to hear that someone else has made it through the end of the beginning. Hope all goes well with the move and you settle into a life like no other and all the better for that. Everyone here is so helpful too, you'll get great support and encouragement. Oh, and we all like to be nosey and see pictures of your particular patch of heaven in the making! Best of luck.
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Thanks Treud na Mara,
Pics to follow :-)
Mickey