The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: JMB on June 29, 2012, 07:52:38 am
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Hello.
I know there are a million threads on scouring lambs already but I'm not sure about this one.
My lamb is now about 2 months old, just under.
She's seems fine except for a very mucky bum I've just noticed. Couldn't catch her this morning but will try again later.
The grass is very wet so it could just be this.
I bring my sheep in every day for a bit to nibble on, just so I can see them, and she eats some of that (tup and lamb mix, bits of maize, sheep nuts etc). (Is this too rich for her? Should I stop feeding/ change diet?)
But also her mum has conjunctivitis and is currently blind and I've been giving her eye cream and Alamycin antibiotic all this week, which has been quite stressful for her and her lambs (and me).
I don't want to panic and start ringing the vet again yet (I've been their best customer this week with blind sheep...) and just wondered if there is anything I could do at the moment?
Or do I just wait and see?
Or do I panic?
Thank you, Joanne xxxxx
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So long as they have been wormed etc it 'could' be the effects of the anti-bs going through the milk her dam is producing....see how it goes and if it continues or others get it start thinking about other causes. Also if on lush grass sheep really don't need extra feed. I have mine on long lush grass, none are at all mucky but I'm not feeding them anything but grass and they are all looking very well!
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We had one lamb with a very mucky bum and all the others were fine. They have all been wormed in mid-May so I thought maybe it was the wet grass and that it just wasn't suiting her.
The vet came round to a see another of our ewes and we asked her about the mucky bum. I said I didn't think it was worms as they had all been wormed six weeks ago and none of the others were having problems.
Not so.
Apparently, it can sometimes be the case that one sheep (or - more usually - one lamb) seems to "take the hit" and carry the worm burden for the whole flock - in a sense.
The vet gave her a shot of Panacur or something and next day - dry bum.
So - lesson for me was - think worms first and wet grass/stress/wrong food second. And that even one lamb affected can mean worms.
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Hello. Thanks very much for your replies.
Regarding worming- we did them all last weekend, including the lambs.
We were rounding them up anyway because some of our sheep have conjuntivitis and needed eye ointment. including Runny Bum's mum.
But since the blindness has continued all week, Runny Bum's mum and the other blind ewes have remained in the front field where we wormed them (just so they are in reach for treatment).
I suppose what I'm saying is- I can't worm again (just in case) so soon can I?
And could the cause be because she's been kept in the field all week (where we wormed?)
Thanks very much. Joanne xxxx
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I would say 7 days is the minimum time between wormings - but only if the animal hasn't responded to the initial treatment. Sometimes it will take 2 or even 3 shots to get rid of the problem, depending on the health of the animal and the effectiveness of the wormer. If you haven't moved the sheep off the infected pasture then definitely re-worm that lamb. Move it to cleaner pasture if you can.
You don't say what wormer you used? Depending on your area some won't be as affective as others (and no, you won't know unless you do a FEC a while after after worming).
Check that you know the weight of the animal and that you are giving the right dose, or even a bit extra.
And yes, defo, some animals are more immune to worms than others.
As for wet grass, I have started keeping some hay in the hay rack all year, which they mostly ignore, until we get lots of (Welsh) rain then they seem to appreciate the dry matter. I think that all my sheep's bums are cleaner because of it. :)
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As for wet grass, I have started keeping some hay in the hay rack all year, which they mostly ignore, until we get lots of (Welsh) rain then they seem to appreciate the dry matter. I think that all my sheep's bums are cleaner because of it. :)
Yes, I agree with that :thumbsup:
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Thank you. I'll try and get some more hay. Good idea.
By the way, our wormer is Mebadown super oral suspension- it's a combination fluke and wormer we had in and we were told this was fine for lambs too, so that's what we used.
All the others seem fine.
I have heard nightmare stories about sheep going blind with this type of wormer if overdosed - so not sure if it would be Ok to dose again a week later? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
Joanne xxxx
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That's interesting about the hay.
I'm going to start doing that.
Thanks :D
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This might be helpful
http://www.moredun.org.uk/news/scientists-warn-nematodirus-risk-young-lambs (http://www.moredun.org.uk/news/scientists-warn-nematodirus-risk-young-lambs)
Nematodirus would be the classic cause of mucky bums up to the end of June in lambs, and the normal treatment would be a white wormer - there are five groups of wormer each with its own colour.
Worming is a very complex subject where the classic advice is changing as the consequences of drug resistance become more and more severe. So look at http://www.scops.org.uk/ (http://www.scops.org.uk/)
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I am pretty sure that the wormer component of your combo product is in the white group of wormers. However, don't repeat the treatment with that combo product because yes, you will overdose the animal with the flukicide.
Pop to your agri shop and get a small bottle of Panacur - not the best product on the market as it has high resistance, but should do you in this instance. It's the only product which comes in the smallest bottles. :) (if they don't have that, which is unlikely, ask for a white or clear wormer). And then give it a dose of that.
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I've had recurrent scouring problems too, mine were all wormed and the lambs given a coccidiosis drench very recently so in my case I think it's just the varying grass conditions after rain (which we have had a lot of!). I am also paranoid about worms (having lost a couple earlier in the year) but in those cases the sheep were obviously unwell. All those who are scouring currently are otherwise fit and active so I am not going to stress myself about it ::)
It happens to my horses when the grass is wet - their droppings turn wet and sloppy whereas when it's dry they firm up again! I guess it must be the same for sheep, if you have discounted all other possible scenarios!
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Hello.
I was thinking of keeping a check and using Panacur to re-worm if necessary (as Foobar suggested)
But I didn't know about the coccidiosis drench.
I don't think Panacur does coccidiosis.
Should I get something that does both, or just the Panacur, or get the faeces tested first (if it continues)?
Or if she's looking lively still, should I leave well alone?
Thank you x
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I have started keeping some hay in the hay rack all year, which they mostly ignore, until we get lots of (Welsh) rain then they seem to appreciate the dry matter. I think that all my sheep's bums are cleaner because of it. :)
This year I kept hay in the feeders up to last week (to the amazement of visitors). Sheep in the same fields as previously - last 2 years they were really mucky by now - this year all are really clean and dry except for 1 lamb. Guess who has been dosed for worms.
If I have enough hay, I will do this again (don't ask about our hay crop :( :( )
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Your vet can do a worm count for you - or you can get instructions for doing it yourself. Rather than risk over-medicating find out what the problem is.
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Your vet can do a worm count for you - or you can get instructions for doing it yourself. Rather than risk over-medicating find out what the problem is.
Here here.....
Please consider that this squitty lambs mum is on antibiotics and that sometimes causes scouring! There is much to much use of wormer....without proof of worms .....this is what is leading to resistant worms!!!
Whilst I am all for administering medication if necessary please please get counts done if not sure!
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Yes - I agree with this. I find worming very confusing and am going to start doing more testing - especially the mucky bum ones.
You can get testing kits from Supplies for Smallholders I see.
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Well, she still looks Ok and I haven't re-wormed her yet.
I'm a bit reluctant to worm her if she doesn't need it (although some people say 'just do it before she gets worse' and others say 'leave alone').
This is our first year lambing and we are still learning.
So I suppose my question would now be about timing.
Once a lamb presents with a runny bum- do I have time to go through the worm/faeces test? We worm tested our pigs with the supplies for smallholder kits, so I assume I can use the same, but it takes a few days.
If the lamb does have worms, will she have gone right downhill by then? (Bearing in mind I'll have to order one and send it back)
Thanks, Joanne xxx
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I expect to be shot down in flames, but since Nematodirus can kill quickly, I worm lambs with mucky bums whether or not I've done a FEC. I might well follow up with one, so that I knew what was going on, for future reference. But I treat first.
I have some friends who run an organic farm. As far as I can see this consists of having to go through endless ineffectual remedies, then FEC, before they're finally allowed to use an effective wormer by which time the animal has lost serious condition or died.
For this, and other similar scenarios, I would never go organic for animal welfare reasons.
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Some vets do their own egg counts ,so you can get the results quickly. I have had 10 days rain and temps up to 22 so the grass has gone crazy and some lambs are scouring , same colour as grass , but look bouncy and happy :farmer:
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hello,
After you worm your sheep do you leave them stand on the yard for a few hours so that they can poo all the worms out and they wont go back into the land.
this is what we've found has worked for us, as our sheep are now becoming immune to worm drenches.
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I've seen it suggested that one should follow the stock on the land with chickens something like ten days later. Theory is that the chickens will eat the worms when they hatch but I don't know if it works in practice. Might need a lot of chickens.
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Hello.
No, we don't put them on hardstanding after we've wormed them.
Maybe we ought to from now on.
I've read that the recommended method was to put them on clean pasture after, but then recently the thinking was to leave them where they were for a bit (something to do with resistance).
Like the chicken idea though. We have 5 hens but any excuse to get more! I've heard the duck theory too, although jury is out on that.
Anyway, lamb still bouncy today so fingers crossed.
Thanks again for your replies.
Joanne xxxx
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I would worm again before doing the FEC if it was April-June, Nematodirus can kill before it shows up in egg counts. I would read the monthly Nadis parasite forecast for my area and follow any advice that they give. And in my area this year it was two doses 7-10 days apart. You always need to remember that larvae hatches are weather dependent. What works one year will not necessarily work the next.
I don't want to over worm my sheep but also I don't want them to be poor doers because of a high worm burden. And most importantly I don't want to encourage fly strike.
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Nematodirus can kill before it shows up in egg counts.
Our vet is not impressed with FECs for this very reason.
I would read the monthly Nadis parasite forecast for my area and follow any advice that they give. And in my area this year it was two doses 7-10 days apart. You always need to remember that larvae hatches are weather dependent. What works one year will not necessarily work the next.
I don't want to over worm my sheep but also I don't want them to be poor doers because of a high worm burden. And most importantly I don't want to encourage fly strike.
Top advice :thumbsup:
And yes, the current thinking, to reduce resistance, is to put wormed sheep back on the 'dirty' ground for a few days before moving them onto clean. But much more importantly than this, according to our vet, is to not worm the best (most healthy) 10% sheep. They are handling their worm burden and by leaving them unwormed you are helping their immune systems as well as not encouraging resistance in the worms they are carrying - plus, most importantly, leaving some non-resistant worms alive to dilute the resistant worms in your pasture.
Our vet says to only ever worm adult ewes just before lambing, and not at all if they are not lambing. The adults should generally be able to manage the worms they pick up, but there is an explosion of worms from the newly lambed ewe, so it is advisable to worm lambing ewes at that time.
Of course you would always worm an individual animal showing symptoms of failing to handle a worm burden - but try giving a mineral drench at the same time.
I now have a veterinary explanation for my oft-repeated advice to give good quality (ie, chelated) mineral drenches to lambs. The minerals actively support the sheep's immune system, thereby helping the sheep handle the worm burden and reducing the need to give a wormer, which in turn helps prevent the worms developing resistance to the wormer.
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We just had a Defra funded session on worming from our vet who has said exactly the same to us as Sally says below. Perhaps it was the same presentation?
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I now have a veterinary explanation for my oft-repeated advice to give good quality (ie, chelated) mineral drenches to lambs. The minerals actively support the sheep's immune system, thereby helping the sheep handle the worm burden and reducing the need to give a wormer, which in turn helps prevent the worms developing resistance to the wormer.
Are chelated mineral drenches safe for all breeds and all parts of the country or do you need to know about the mineral status in your local area before using them? Are mineral licks not enough?
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Are chelated mineral drenches safe for all breeds and all parts of the country or do you need to know about the mineral status in your local area before using them? Are mineral licks not enough?
If you buy minerals, whether licks or drenches, in your local suppliers, then hopefully they are appropriate to your part of the country. But by all means check. And yes, some breeds cannot tolerate supplementary copper, so for them get a drench or lick with no added copper.
Up here in the far north west of England, our ground is short of Copper, Cobalt and Selenium and we often need supplementary zinc and iodine too. And other supplementation depending on the season and lifecycle - eg, high-magnesium licks mid-late gestation.
The thing about licks is, only some sheep will use them and it is not always those that need them, no - the manufacturers make them sugary and appealing, so it's usually the greediest sheep that go for them and may hog them all day, getting molassed lipstick all over their greedy little faces... ::)
Loose minerals as a powder are more likely to be used only by those sheep in need - but are much more awkward to use, needing topped up each day and protected from the weather as the rain will spoil them.
Mineral drenches give a lift but it's short-lived as the minerals decay in / are excreted from the body. The drenches in which the key elements are chelated are supposed to maintain elevated blood levels of those minerals for 6-8 weeks.
There are also boluses and injections for some minerals; some sheep need copper during pregnancy to lay down the skeleton of the foetuses, and this is often given as a bolus or jag. But chelated copper will work just as well.
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Thanks Sally, that's really useful to know.