The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: in the hills on June 21, 2012, 12:45:12 pm
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Several of my lambs have reacted to the Heptavac P vaccine ..... lump at the injection site. One lamb is receiving treatment for a possible abcess. None appear to be ill.
I am thinking that this could be due to my inexperience at giving injections ..... poor technique maybe. :(
Has anyone else experienced any problems/ reactions at injection site with Heptavac?
I don't get the chance to chat to many keepers of Soay or other primitives but 3 keepers of relatively large Soay flocks have told me that they do not use Heptavac or any similar product. I think the reasons being difficulty in handling/stress and trying to keep them in as natural a way as possible.
Is there anyone on here that chooses not to use Heptavac?
I did speak to the manufacturers who told me that they do not expect to see many reactions in sheep but did expect lumps at the injection site in goats ..... quite often that is. Being that Soay are primitives, are they more likely to react to this drug? (Most people think mine are goats ::) ;D ) Is there any evidence that primitives are less susceptible to the diseases covered by Heptavac P?
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When we got our first soays, 8 ewes, the owner told us not to do anything - no injections, worming etc and they would be absolutely fine, which they were and produced lambs beautifully. We now have various rare breed stocks and have decided to HepvacP and worm as they will be our root stock for a number of years. Vet says Hepvacp would be wise but we shouldn't have to worm them as we are not heavily stocked. Natives are known for being hardy, no foot rot, blow strike etc and I have knowledge of other breeders who don't inject at all and their stock is fine.
If they have a reaction, my gut instinct would be not to do it but I should think you should take the advice of a vet who knows about rare breeds not just sheep in general.
A local shepherd who came to shear. clip feet also wormed and did the injections - we will be gathering them again in the next couple of weeks and I'll check for lumps etc and let you know.
Was your needle sterile?
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Thank you for your reply.
Yes, sterile/new needles and unopened Heptavac, stored as instructions.
Would be great to hear from you when your sheep are injected.
I suppose I am vaccinating/fly pevention treating, etc. as you would commercials. This has just made me question things a bit.
The people I have spoken to (with far more experience than me) don't routinely use fly prevention chemicals either and say they have hardly any cases. ???
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hi,
we don't vaccinate or use fly prevention.we do routinely worm though.
we keep goats & hebridean sheep.
in 15 years of sheep we've only had 3 cases of fly strike.
if we had a problem i would vaccinate,but luckily so far we have'nt.
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Heptava P goes under the skin. Sorry if this is patronising but are you lifting the skin away from the underlying layer when you inject and using a short needle? Just a thought. I would also suspect that primitive sheep may react the same way as goats.
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The reaction is completely normal. It's not bad technique or dirty needles, it's a reaction to the actual vaccine. And yes, there may be an abscess at the site, just empty it when possible and spray with blue spray.
My goats get a bad reaction to it every year and the sheep do, though a bit less than the goats.
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And yes, there may be an abscess at the site, just empty it when possible and spray with blue spray.
This is going to sound like a really stupid question, but I presume that by the time an abscess appears that the heptavac would have been sufficiently dispersed throughout the body - i.e. draining won't remove any of the vaccine?
We do get the odd reaction in ours and so far have just left them - they tend to disappear over time. Are there any pro's and cons to draining vs not-draining?
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We don't normally get a bad reaction at the injection site, sometimes a small lump will form but we did have one ewe who had a very bad reaction which gave her a large abcess then after that she always had a ugly crusty scab on the skin. This never went so she was missmarked until she died
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An occasional lump at the injection site is completely normal.
TBH I can't understand why you might choose not to vaccinate your sheep. It covers a range of clostridial diseases all of which are extremely nasty and usually fatal, including tetanus, lamb dysentry, pulpy kidney and pasteurella pneumonia (Heptavac P Plus).
How many shepherds deny themselves tetanus cover? Surely your sheep deserve this basic protection?
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I think vaccination is pretty essential too.
No, draining the abscess won't affect the effect of the vaccine.
Goats react more (there's a surprise) so maybe I'm more used to that, but some sheep do too.
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Its not like sheep can build up an resistanceto any of these diseases, either.
If its something a genetic resistance can exist for (worms, feet etc) then I tend to treat/cull on a case by case basis (ie - I wouldn't footfax my whole flock).
If you have any of the diseases covered by heptavac, then the likelyhood is, on your morning rounds you'll simply find a few deads (5-10% is typical, I believe), then a few more the next day and so on.
In the warm, dry south we tend not to see these diseases in summer, so I take the risk and vaccinate anything I am keeping - anything that sees autumn gets vaccinated, essentially.
As for worming, whatever the species, its easy to do a FEC - my vet does them for nothing, why not just do that? I rarely worm, but then, I rarely have worms. I could have wasted hundreds in routine worming by now if I did that.
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I agree with JayKay...just squeeze gently the lump...the pus will all fly out...then I spray with terramycin...about a tenner from the vets. I use brand new just bought short needles and keep a fresh needle in the vaccine and just draw it off using the vent off spike using a sperate needle to inject and I have had a couple of abscesses in the past.
At least the abscesses mean the immune system is working well...if it produces pus, I guess!!!!
Mine also sometimes get a very similar abscess when they scratch along the blackthorn hedge!!! LOL
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It is natural for tissue at any injection site to react, whether vaccine or antibiotic etc. Some cause more reaction than others. I myself always react at injection sites with large hard lump and sow area for days.
You can try to reduce the risk of infection by parting the fleece or coat of the animal and wiping the skin of the injection site with spirit or antibacterial wash before the injection. I can see this could be difficult with some animals, but a thought if they are easily handled. The wipe/inject routine can be very quick with practice.
There's still always a risk of abscess tho, it's just trying to reduce the risk as and when possible.
:fc:
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Last year we had one with a lump the size of a tennis ball and we just left it. It went away on its own.
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Thats all really interesting, am going out now to check my goats as they were injected for the first time too.
I thought you had to lance lumps or the infection inside it could leak into the blood stream and cause problems?
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In 10 years of sheepkeeping (rare breeds) I've had about the same number of reactions to Heptavac, in the form of a wee lump. I'd never dream of squeezing it. They tend to go away on their own. Never sure if it's my injecting technique or the vaccine. The past 2 years though, I've use an automatic injector and had 1 lump last year. He was my best ram lamb and went to a nice theme park place in North Devon where he's doing very well indeed.
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In 10 years of sheepkeeping (rare breeds) I've had about the same number of reactions to Heptavac, in the form of a wee lump. I'd never dream of squeezing it. They tend to go away on their own. Never sure if it's my injecting technique or the vaccine. The past 2 years though, I've use an automatic injector and had 1 lump last year. He was my best ram lamb and went to a nice theme park place in North Devon where he's doing very well indeed.
Maggie
It's just a gentle squish that's needed to get rid of all that badness and oh my, it is satisfying too! LOL!
The reason I squish is because sometimes it's a blackthorn and the quicker those are out of the flesh, the better. Nasty ole things! It also means I can get some lovely antibiotic spray into the area.
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Thank you for your replies. :)
It would appear that reactions at the injection site are quite common and not just in primitives. We would probably not have noticed the reaction lumps in most of the lambs as they are not visible without digging into the wool with fingers ..... so obviously not that large. We only checked when we noticed the abscess on our ewe lamb. This was obvious as there is no wool covering it but again if she was running with a big commercial flock could be missed.
The Heptavac manufacturers were very helpful and said they would look into whether there is anything documented about reactions in primitives and get back in touch with me. This will be interesting.
Mammyshaz - I will try wiping the area as you suggest next time I inject anyone.
Omnipeasant - Not patronising at all. I did try to lift the skin but I must admit the skin does seem quite a tight fit ;D and I have commented in the past that it is difficult to " tent". Will pay particular attention to this in future.
Taking the ewe lamb to the vets to have the abscess treated was quite stressful for her and also for her mum and twin as they had to be brought in, in order that we could bathe the area twice daily (as recommended by the vet ..... the abscess was cut open). If this happens again is it possible to treat at home? Exactly how do you drain the abscess? With what? Would an antibiotic shot be necessary?
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The vet will probably let you have a sterile disposable scalpel to nick it but most people seem to use a wide bore syringe. Never had to do one myself fortunately. Hope she is okay now and forgives you for the indignity of going to the vet.
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Remember that swelling at vaccine site is normal and not necessarily an abscess. Before lancing check it is definitely an abscess or you could just be lancing into reacting flesh which will then become a bigger problem for infection developing.
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I think in general you lance lumps to reduce the pressure and therefore pain. And I think the animal is better off without the abcess if possible. But most don't get septicaemia if you leave them and some get septicaemia with no abcess so I'm not sure that's related.
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Mallow, I hadn't thought of blackthorn! I have such a lot of the darn stuff too. I'll do a triple check on lumps next time I see them, just in case that's the problem. Cheers!
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Mallow, I hadn't thought of blackthorn! I have such a lot of the darn stuff too. I'll do a triple check on lumps next time I see them, just in case that's the problem. Cheers!
I was quite shocked too...first ewe I saw I thought it was vaccination abscess but then when i found one on a ewea throat, 2 more with one on shoulder..I took a closer look (and the little squish LOL) and it (and the pus) shot out like a bullet.
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Well done on the squishing...
To be on the safe side... dig the bushes out and send them to me......
Hmmm... lovely Sloe Gin...... :innocent: :yum:
Jon
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Well done on the squishing...
To be on the safe side... dig the bushes out and send them to me......
Hmmm... lovely Sloe Gin...... :innocent: :yum:
Jon
LOL Jon... keep your hands off my bushes! I need all those sloes for my Sloe voddy!!! (well, not all of them... in fact, a mere fraction!)
p.s love the name 'Kumquat'...that is the name of my first wether lamb... very fitting for a ram lamb that has subsequently 'lost his quats' I think!!!!
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p.s love the name 'Kumquat'...that is the name of my first wether lamb... very fitting for a ram lamb that has subsequently 'lost his quats' I think!!!!
I've definitely not lost any 'quats', but definitely lost the plot a few times.... :innocent: 8)
Made Sloe Voddy for the first time with last years sloes....very nice indeed. Reckon i'll alternate between Gin and Vodka from now on.
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Hahahah! Very funny :o)
Enjoy the gin!
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Best sloe gin I ever tasted had an almond or two in there aswell.
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Ahhh, not heard of that one, will give it a try in this years batch....Cheers :thumbsup:
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It was just peeled and popped in with the sloes.
Lovely subtle flavour but distinguishable