The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: moprabbit on June 19, 2012, 11:01:20 pm

Title: Is ragwort poisonous?
Post by: moprabbit on June 19, 2012, 11:01:20 pm
I've just been sorting through some weeds that the owner of the field where I keep my sheep, has put in pile. I can identify most of them and know some that are ok for sheep, but I'm not sure about ragwort - I know it's very poisonous for horses, but what about sheep? I've looked in my books, some say it is poisnous others don't mention it. I've taken it out anyway.  I know yew & rhododrendron is very toxic and believe rhubarb is no good either. Is there a good list (maybe with pictures/photos) anywhere of poisonous plants for sheep? Thank you
Title: Re: Is ragwort poisonous?
Post by: SteveHants on June 19, 2012, 11:28:27 pm
Ragwort is toxic when it is cut and dried - sheep seem to be able to munch the fresh plant with impunity. I have been offered grazings on the strength of this. I still dig out any full grown plants I see, rather not have it about.
Title: Re: Is ragwort poisonous?
Post by: tizaala on June 20, 2012, 07:21:11 am
It's one of those  horrid poisons that  builds up over time  and is stored in the liver, then the trouble starts. most lambs aren't kept long enough to see the efects of the build up so people think they are immune.
Get rid of it by burning and wear gloves to handle it.
Title: Re: Is ragwort poisonous?
Post by: shetlandpaul on June 20, 2012, 07:24:48 am
it will kill your sheep in the end. not a nice death either.
Title: Re: Is ragwort poisonous?
Post by: lachlanandmarcus on June 20, 2012, 07:47:23 am
Sheep can however absorb more of it as a percentage of body weight than either cattle or horses (something like 5% as opposed to 1 or 2%) , so its a 'how long they are kept' plus their 'greater capacity to cope with' that means that sheep rarely die of it.
It certainly eventually does affect them as abbatoirs see it in the liver, and dried ragwort is much more dangerous and they should never be exposed to that, but with young ragwort plants in sprint (which have lower toxin levels and lesser volume), sheep can generally act as a very effective control mechanism to prevent the plants getting larger and (in their second year, they are biennial) flowering and spreading thousands of seeds.
Title: Re: Is ragwort poisonous?
Post by: moprabbit on June 20, 2012, 10:00:37 am
Thanks for all these replies - I'll get rid of any I see!
Title: Re: Is ragwort poisonous?
Post by: tizaala on June 20, 2012, 10:10:30 am
Common ragwort contains compounds that are poisonous to most vertebrates .These are pyrrolizidine alkaloids . These substances occur in other plants as well. In fact they occur in 3% of the world's flora (1). Inside the plants, they occur in a non-toxic form, but after the plant has been eaten it is first changed by the intestines and then broken down by the liver. Both these processes are necessary for toxicity. (This is also why it is not dangerous for humans to handle ragwort.) The breakdown products formed in the liver are toxic. (2, 3). Contrary to what is often thought by the general public, the alkaloids do not accumulate inside the body of an animal. The fact is that they are excreted in about 24 to 48 hours (3). It is the damage that is caused to liver cells that can, if sufficient ragwort is consumed at each dose, be cumulative to the point of death occurring. The question then is how much needs to be consumed for an animal to be poisoned. Again research provides the answer. It has been found that is lies between 5 % and 25% of body weight for horses and cattle. For goats the figure is much higher, between 125% and 404% (4).

Forgot to say YOU ARE LEGALY OBLIGED TO RID YOUR LAND OF RAGWORT, ( County Councils dont seem to take this seriously when it comes to verges and motorways )
Title: Re: Is ragwort poisonous?
Post by: Bionic on June 20, 2012, 10:37:34 am
Thanks for the info Tizaala
Title: Re: Is ragwort poisonous?
Post by: darkbrowneggs on June 20, 2012, 10:45:32 am
 :thumbsup:   Excellent post Tizaala
Title: Re: Is ragwort poisonous?
Post by: Mallows Flock on June 21, 2012, 08:23:24 pm
I am LOVING the look of those dark brown eggs.... I get white, brown, speckled, cream, blue/green but I WANT those well-tanned St Tropez coloured beauties!!!!
 
Title: Re: Is ragwort poisonous?
Post by: Small Farmer on June 21, 2012, 11:09:07 pm
The Weeds Act 1959 covers the stuff in England: I imagine Scotland has its own version.  You can't initiate a legal action yourself though.  Follow the link if you want to see what to do


http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/regulation/wildlife/enforcement/injuriousweeds.aspx (http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/regulation/wildlife/enforcement/injuriousweeds.aspx)
Title: Re: Is ragwort poisonous?
Post by: thepoisongarden on June 22, 2012, 08:44:44 am
tizaala

A very good explanation of the situation except for;

'YOU ARE LEGALY OBLIGED TO RID YOU LAND OF RAGWORT'

That is not true. The Code of Practice from DEFRA on the control of common ragwort provides a clear explanation of what to do and is a must read for anyone concerned about the plant.
Title: Re: Is ragwort poisonous?
Post by: deepinthewoods on June 22, 2012, 08:47:30 am
oh not again, this came up before 'the poison garden' and a link was put up disproving you!!
Title: Re: Is ragwort poisonous?
Post by: lachlanandmarcus on June 22, 2012, 09:16:25 am
6  Legal Framework
[/font][/color][/b]
Under the Weeds Act 1959 the Secretary of State for the Environment, Food
and Rural Affairs can, if satisfied that injurious weeds are growing upon any land,
serve a notice requiring the occupier to take action to prevent the spread of those
weeds. An unreasonable failure to comply with a notice is an offence. The Weeds
Act applies to:
[/font][/color]
Common Ragwort (Senecio jacobaea)
[/font][/size][/color]
Spear Thistle (Cirsium vulgare)
[/font][/size][/color]
Creeping or Field Thistle (Cirisium arvense)
[/font][/size][/color]
Curled Dock (Rumex crispus)
Broad-Leaved Dock (Rumex obtusifolius)
The Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006 delegates the
functions available to the Secretary of State under the Weeds Act to Natural
England, a Defra agency. This delegation of functions enables Natural England
to investigate complaints where there is a risk that injurious weeds might spread
to neighbouring land. Natural England gives priority to investigating complaints
where there is a risk of weeds spreading to land used for grazing horses or
livestock, land used for forage production and other agricultural activities."
taken from the Defra code for ragwort management and control
 
So, on a railway cutting in 100% arable land, it would not be an offence. Neighbouring ANY livestock or horse fields. allowing it to grow unhindered IS AN OFFENCE.
Poisonous garden I think we are all satisfied that even if every landowner in the country eradicated every piece of ragwort on their land, there would still be billions of plants in untended and unmaintained road verges, railway verges and other waste ground which would render the plant extremely common.
There is therefore no need to get into a 'pro ragwort/ anti ragwort debate; controlling it in livestock areas which will be for the vast majority of us the reality is (i) our legal obligation and (ii) not in any risk of wiping out this plant, which is frankly completely out of control.
Nor are our activities in danger of wiping out the only species which seems to exclusively favour ragwort: the cinnabar moth is rare despite ragwort carpeting the country: its rarity therefore stems from other factors than lack of host ragwort plants as based ont their availability it should be as common as cowpats.
 
 [/font][/color]
Title: Re: Is ragwort poisonous?
Post by: Factotum on June 22, 2012, 09:22:41 am
The Weeds Act 1959 describes action being taken against landowners to prevent the spreading of injurious weeds , Common Ragwort being one.

I suppose it could be argued that control to prevent spreading and complete eradication are not the same thing. Indeed the DEFRA publication on Ragwort control specifically states:

The Code does not seek to eradicate ragwort, but only seeks to control it
where there is a threat to the health and welfare of animals.


Not trying to be contentious here, I spend many a happy hour 'preventing the spread' of ragwort on our pastures as we keep cattle on the land and make hay (if we're lucky with the weather) for winter feeding. However, if any land is not used for livestock or hay/silage, and is not in close proximity to land being used for that purpose, then the presence of Ragwort would probably not be viewed as an offence
Title: Re: Is ragwort poisonous?
Post by: Factotum on June 22, 2012, 09:24:18 am
Ah, see that L&M has posted much the same comment, apologies for repeating. Note to self, must type faster...

Sue
Title: Re: Is ragwort poisonous?
Post by: thepoisongarden on June 25, 2012, 08:01:20 am
deepinthewoods

Any link that goes to anywhere other than the DEFRA code of practice is worthless.

I'm not trying to make any 'pro' or 'anti' ragwort point. I'm just saying the primary source is available and does not support tizaala's final point.

It is the old 'you can have your own opinion but you can't have your own truth'. You can have your opinion on what should be done about ragwort but the truth is in the Code of Practice and that is the only document that matters.
Title: Re: Is ragwort poisonous?
Post by: SteveHants on June 25, 2012, 08:49:57 am
Well, it is and it isn't. I pull ragwort where I see it because I feel a moral obligation to other stock keepers. Farmers are all in it together and a bit of mutual understanding is often how the countryside functions.
Title: Re: Is ragwort poisonous?
Post by: lachlanandmarcus on June 25, 2012, 09:27:50 am
deepinthewoods

Any link that goes to anywhere other than the DEFRA code of practice is worthless.


Thats not true,  except from the point that the code of practice represents what the government says should be done in legal obligation.
Which we have all agreed is there is not an amibition for total eradication in all areas BUT there IS a legal obligation to remove ragwort when in proximity to grazing animals or hay crops. The latter is important, since ragwort is more dangerous when dried in hay and people not controlling it due to not thinking of their area as livestock area need to do more research on what the fields around them are used for - if it is for hay or silage they need to control the ragwort .
Its all an academic argument anyway, as said before if every livestock keeper removed every piece of ragwort on their land the plant would still be extremely common and not remotely endangered due to its habit of growing on inaccessible and waste ground.  So I'm not sure that illustrating  the' qualified nature' of the obligation to remove ragwort achieves very much other than intellectual satisfaction, since the real problem is the number of landowners and managers who do not remove ragwort where they should be, and not remotely people not removing it where they dont have to.
 
Title: Re: Is ragwort poisonous?
Post by: Bionic on June 25, 2012, 10:36:35 am
We don't have too much ragwort on our land but I do feel a great satisfaction when I pull it up  ;D
Title: Re: Is ragwort poisonous?
Post by: Beewyched on June 26, 2012, 11:01:38 pm
We don't have too much ragwort on our land but I do feel a great satisfaction when I pull it up  ;D
Oh yes, then incinerate it on the bonfire - VERY satisfying  ;D