The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Bionic on June 13, 2012, 11:15:39 am
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We bought our sheep hurdles yesterday so today was the day for trying to turn over our new sheep.
I reread how to do it in Tim Tyne's book and went over what he showed me at the spring show but the reality is not the same.
The sheep are more or less bucket trained so came into the hurdles without a problem but thats when the fun began. Gosh, they can be bolshy when they want to be.
It took a while for me to get them in the right position to even start. Then I could get their head turned in but the other end was a different matter. Somehow, between me and OH we managed to do all three eventually.
There was no particular reason to do it now, other than that I don't want to wait until there is a problem and then find I couldn't do it. So at least I now know what I am up against and can get them in the right position for hoof trimming when it needs to be done. (Kaz had kindly done their hooves on Sat morning before we picked them up).
When we had finished they were keen to get away but once released just starting eating grass so I don't think they were overly upset by it. :fc:
Sally
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The key in Tim's description of how to tip a sheep is to keep your body in contact with its, so that as you move, the sheep comes with you and you are well balanced the whole time. The other trick is to KNOW that its going to work and you will win ;D
If your sheep have big horns the whole thing is a bit more complicated - my OH has to reach over the tups and take their opposite legs then tip them onto their sides initially then up to sitting. Their horns stop their heads from turning enough to do the usual method.
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Had to try and do it on my own with our adult ewes a few months back so I could dag their bums. Not easy at all!! I guess, like all things, comes with practise?
I had to ask my 10 year old to pass my the rear legs so I could check their back feet as I couldnt' reach (must have stumpy arms)
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I don't turn mine at all - I do their feet like you would do a horse and dagging's easy(ish).
The problem with Ryelands is that they don't really bend in the middle, especially when fleeced, being kind of "stocky".
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Rosemary, thats exactly the problem. I couldn't get them to bend in the middle and despite being recently shorn they are fairly stocky.
I am going to try it without turning them over next time. Thanks for the tip.
Sally
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You only really need to take a look upside down if there is any trouble under there. i.e flystrike. I have found it easier is you don't have a headstand to use a head harness and tie them fairly tightly against a hurdle or gate and turn their feet upwards as if you was trimming horses feet. They can be turned by walking backwards with them, but that's another matter!
Don't forget you are the boss.
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Thanks Kaz,
I have a headcollar but haven't tried it yet. I will do as you suggested next time.
Having read what everyone has to say about fly strike on here I am paranoid about it so keep checking every time I go to look at them. Turning them over this morning gave me the opportunity to see places that aren't usually so visable.
Sally
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Does anyone have any opinions on whether certain breeds are more difficult to turn that others? I think that some of the more mountain type sheep seem to be more sturdier on their feet and harder to tip (even if they are smaller), than the large lowland breeds.
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As Fleecewife says, the most important thing is to KNOW you are going to get them tipped up, whatever breed they are.
I can tip a Swale more easily than a large Texel - the biggest Texels are so large I can't reach both ends at once. If I think I may not be able to tip a one, I get BH to do her - NEVER let them learn they can beat you, they have to KNOW you'll do it too!
Practise on lambs, if you can - even though they're small enough you can pick them up and plonk them on their bottoms, do it the folding-head-in way so that your body learns the moves.
It does get easier, it really does - but some of it is developing the muscles and muscle-memory, so don't be disheartened if it takes a while to get the hang of it.
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I don't have any lambs but have been practising on the dog ;D
It was a bit of a stuggle but we did manage to do all 3 this morning so they didn't beat us. I am still top dog, or ewe ;D
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You can see why we have a turn over crate. :innocent:
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get borerays, they are much lighter and easier to turn...lol....and this year they have self-shedded their fleece so no shearing either (bit of a shame as it got good money so will have to go collecting by hand, lol)
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I don't have any lambs but have been practising on the dog ;D
It was a bit of a stuggle but we did manage to do all 3 this morning so they didn't beat us. I am still top dog, or ewe ;D
:thumbsup: ;D ;D
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Rosemary, thats exactly the problem. I couldn't get them to bend in the middle and despite being recently shorn they are fairly stocky.
I am going to try it without turning them over next time. Thanks for the tip.
Sally
Keep practising - you WILL get the hang of it, even with tubby sheep. If Tim can do it with one hand and a cup of tea in the other (when he is showing off) I KNOW you can do it with two.
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I don't have any lambs but have been practising on the dog
:D
This reminds me of when I was training to do my winter Mountain Leader qualification. There is a certain amount of belaying someone coming up a snowslope (round your body belay). Having no ready volunteer, I kept practising tying my lab cross Maia into the rope and belaying her across the living room.
When it came to assessment I passed this bit with flying colours, to the point where the instructor commented on it. I explained how I'd practised and he couldn't stand for laughing for about 5 minutes :D
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I have read Tims book and think its good.
I find the easiest way is to stand as Tim does but turn the sheeps head to look backwards then lift the far away front leg and at the same timestep backwards with my right leg,the sheep is unbalanced and falls over, it was a shearer showed me that.
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Well.....I will confess......I have never managed to really get the hang of it with some breeds of sheep! I can upend great big things like wensleydales but all the wide stocky breeds are just too hefty and don't bend in the right places :innocent: ::) .....either that or my arms just are not long enough! Both my older sons who are 6ft + turn them with consumate ease!!!
Now I keep small sheep I can manage anything easily...even picking them up!
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I can do my girls easily, but I confess I wouldn't be without my sheep deck chair for the oafs my friend has when I do their feet!
Most people hate them, but once you have the knack of getting them into it it's hand free from that point ;D
I LOVE my deck chair, If you get one get the canvas one not the netting one, too many holes to catch limbs in ;)
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I've got a sofa as well. Really ideal for lambs as well.
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Tim Tyne did master classes in inverting sheep at Builth but he looked slightly askance when I mentioned GFDs. You need to be damn quick with a 4yo ewe because if she stiffens her back you can forget any ideas of folding her head towards her tail.
I've practiced with all this year's lambs and they're dead easy. But good old laid-back Lil has the back muscles of a prize fighter.
Who sells sheep sofas?
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I got mine from ascott smallholding supplies ;)
AS for non bendy sheep, the way I was taught to tip them was to place you left arm round the chest (sheep facing left), then with your right hand reach UNDER the sheep and grasp the right hind foot. Pull that foot towards you and she will spin over, with support across the chest from the left arm she 'should' plop down on her bum with her back against your legs.
I'll get hubby to film me doing it this way tomorrow so's you can see what I mean ;)
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I can't wait for the movie!
I've tried that approach without much success - our ewes all did ballet training and keep their balance while I attempt to disturb it. Even for me at 6'3" its remarkable how far away that back leg can be!
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Well I'm 5'4 so I reckon you'll be ok. You can so similar by reaching OVER for the hind leg nearest you. The main point is the arm steady at the chest ;D
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Portlands don't bend!
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Tim Tyne did master classes in inverting sheep at Builth but he looked slightly askance when I mentioned GFDs. You need to be damn quick with a 4yo ewe because if she stiffens her back you can forget any ideas of folding her head towards her tail.
...and I thought it was just me that struggled with GFD's. No problem with other breeds but my girls certainly like a good wrestle.
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he looked slightly askance when I mentioned GFDs
I read this as GSD's initially and thought that he probably would look askance at the idea of turning German Shepherd Dogs... :D Have woken up to the fact at GFDs are those very cute, woolly (and big) Grey Faced Dartmoors ::)
I couldn't ever reach over a Rough Fell to grab her leg - but the biggest issue was as soon as I'd caught hold of a horn, the ewe had pulled away. And as for the tup.....well he weighed 100kg, and I'm not small at 5'6" and nearly 70kg but he definitely had the advantage. His feet I used to do as a horse, since I reckoned he was the size of a small pony! :o He did at least have the advantage of substantial horns you could tie to the fence post.
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/jaykayg/Farm047.jpg)
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My ram likes to kick me in the face with his front legs - good times...
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Waiting for your post Colliewoman. Dont forget ;) ;D
Hubbie turns our Soay by simply lifting and unceremoniously plonking on their bottoms. This is possibly the best way with the wriggly little things but always trying to improve how we handle them. Also, if we had to put a ewe on the floor to examine during lambing Im not sure that our method would be the best to use.
Hubbie thought Tims method was great and couldnt believe how easy it was to put the sheep, much bigger than ours, onto the floor .... and we couldnt believe how they seemed to just lie and give up once down. The Soay seem much more feisty and the folding in as it were, didnt seem to work. Do the horns get in the way?
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We eventually turned our 3 Ryelands, using Tim's method but with a bit of additional help i.e me shouting to OH to pull their legs out from under them ;D
Once we got them in position we were able to do more or less what we liked with them as each one sat still on their hip bones. I was then able to move them onto the other hip bone fairly easily too.
Each day the sheep are getting more friendly (we only got them last Sat) and will come for a pat (don't be fooled its food they are after) so I am hoping next time I try it will be easier. I am still going to try the halter and doing it like a horse as it will be good to have an alternative method.
Sally
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Waiting for your post Colliewoman. Dont forget ;) ;D
Hubbie turns our Soay by simply lifting and unceremoniously plonking on their bottoms. This is possibly the best way with the wriggly little things but always trying to improve how we handle them. Also, if we had to put a ewe on the floor to examine during lambing Im not sure that our method would be the best to use.
Hubbie thought Tims method was great and couldnt believe how easy it was to put the sheep, much bigger than ours, onto the floor .... and we couldnt believe how they seemed to just lie and give up once down. The Soay seem much more feisty and the folding in as it were, didnt seem to work. Do the horns get in the way?
You gots to wait til s'evening when hubby is home ;D
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I have given up even attempting to turn sheep now as my back, neck and arthritic hands won't play the game (neither will the sheep!). Many of mine are great big bruisers especially a couple of the rams and wethers. I invested in a turnover crate last year and for those big sheep and the bigger ewes it's been a godsend. Mind you they can still kick and struggle while upside down! It's no good for the narrower Gotlands who just spin round in it, but they are small enough to be handled.
I'm in awe of the young lad who does my shearing, he whips through the lot of them without even seeming to sweat .. ::) ::) . I prefer to dag them standing up, I think you can get to more of the fleece - it's easier for me to get my knee into their sides to hold them in place while hubby or friend hold the front end! I think I may also invest in a headstock.
It's actually quite amazing what sheep will go through and still come back for more of the same following a bucket. Turning them over in a crate seems quite a traumatic thing to me but they can't be that stressed (or have a very short memory) as they come back again!
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We have a turnover crate but it's hardly seen any use.
The sheep wriggle and kick and I am so afraid they will break a leg in it.
I used to try shoving a pillow between their tummies and the bars - which mostly ended up in the pillows flying in all directions or getting shredded.
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I can't turn our GFD's either so forked out a small fortune for an old turnover crate. Once you have the knack it works very well BUT you have to be so careful with their legs :o :o . Anyone in a hurry could snap them in an instant. I prefer to sit on a straw bale with them in the 'deckchair' beside me.
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We got rid of our big breeds and now keep only smaller ones ::) Even then the tups are a handful - I wouldn't even attempt to turn one of those these days on my own :sheep:
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I tip my Shetlands and lambs but my whopper Charolais' simply get their feet picked up for me to trim them... I don't ever tip them for anything else and I find I don't need to luckily.
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This is great! I thought it was just me being pathetic.
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Hampshire Downs are the worse sheep I ever came across to turn over, so as previously suggested I used to do their feet standing. Any big lowland sheep will be more difficult to turn, but there is still a knack to be learned so persevere. Some people try too hard to physically turn the sheep over but if you get the head position right they kind of give up. I also think if you are tough with them they fight you yet if you cradle their head they 'give' to the inevetable. I am only little!!!
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Did you manage to turn your sheep..... my Shetlands are easy.... i literally just pick them up and sit them on their botties/hip. My charollais are near 100 kg so that AINT happening. I don;t know what Tim Tyne teaches but to turn my fatties easy as pie I just put my left thumb in their mouth behind their bottom teeth, firmly but gently turn their head onto their right shoulder as far as it will go without pushing and then push my hand into the dipped area in front of their hip. They literally go into 'eat me' pose! ;D
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OMG... that has reminded me.... I have a tipping 'deckchair' that i have never even used!!! LOL. You basically hand it onto a gate and reverse the sheep into it. They sit in it, legs akimber like they are in a deckchair. Think it is called a ewe chair or something!!!!! I bought it on ebay. About £35!
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Mallows, that sounds handy. How could you forget you had it? ;D ;D
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I have a barrel of laughs turning my Wilts tups - its a two man job really.
The ewes aren't much better - very 'bouncy' sheep. Lleyns on the other hand are a delight.
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Mallows, that sounds handy. How could you forget you had it? ;D ;D
LOL... because 2 weeks after buying it (after months of trying to track one down to purchase) I learned the art of tipping with minimal effort.....and now there is no looking back! LOL