The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: MAK on June 13, 2012, 08:37:08 am
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I want to know who as all the money. The gap between the haves and have nots seem to be growing.
I skyped my son last night who has just landed a new job. He was headhunted, gets a 25% payrise, monthly and annual bonus, private healthcare and a good pension deal. His pay will increase after 3 months - So what line is he in? High end jewellery - and I mean very high end!! In his last job he made jewellery for Boodles and Tiffanys with some items sold then thrown in the safe ( investment and probable tax evasion) - now he will be working for a diamond company who need good goldsmiths to work with their rocks.
Whilst I am proud of my son getting a great new job it does make me wonder who the heck has the money to buy such extreme trinkets when others have lost their jobs or are struggling on a day to day basis. Spannish bankers ?
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They are the people that our Chancellor refuses to put on a higher tax level in case they jump the country.
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we live nere Aviemore and half have got it and the other half havent att the school range rover after rangrover you can pic the kids out .it is london prices diesel 150 liter chips £2.50 etc there used to be middle class thats gone they are poore .iff kids see there mothers and dads working with nothink they have faild no holaday no school trips even thou they both work on minimum wage and just live its a joke .i think things are worse naw then the 50s .i have never voted as they do whot they like people dident wont the war blare said so thats it .people dont care about each other no trust its bad naw.
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Grayson Perry's TV show on Taste and the "middle class" revealed the Range Rover Brigrade - so much money to buy class driven labels for the road and house. Sad and shallow really but I do ask myself if I had such wealth would I just be one of them or give 10% away and help those who need help.The good thing is that I will never be challenged to find out as I have no paid employment.
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The 'haves' in the majority of cases have worked bloody hard for their money and the 'middle class' just gets more and more squeezed, the 'have nots' mainly want to stay that way because they're better off on benefits (my sister was offered a full time job recently but she worked out she was better off staying on benefits ::) ) and until they stop this countries benefit culture and make it worthwhile working it will continue along these lines with jealousy breeding contempt. We have the Range rover horsey brigade round here and for the most part all are self made business people very few have inherited wealth. The middle classes are caught by the fact that they earn too much to get benefits but can only just a say keep up with the cost of living when you bring into account all the govt stealth taxes on VAT, fuel and the like. We are continually told by people that we are lucky to have a big house, land etc but we tell them we're not we started in a one up one down and have just worked bloody hard to get where we are, wish people would stop moaning about the disparity between the haves and have nots and get their arse into gear and do something about it!
mandy :pig:
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There are still huge industries that rely on the fact that there is a recession - money lending, credit agencies and those that are not effected by recession - like legal obligations such as insurance, banking etc etc
So there are people still making money out there.
As for benifits - if someone wants to stay on benifits because its more financially comforatable to do so - then I'd possible say they wouldn't actually get the job anyway even if they didi apply. And lets face it if they did get the job who the hell wants someone with that attitude to work for them or serve them as a member of the public. If they cant be arsed to get a job - the job they will do will probably be a bad one and not worth the money anyhow.
Let them sit on their arse and think they are living it rich and somehow using the system - when in reality they are actually not, they are poor and on benifits.
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OOH I could rant and rant on this one but basically there is no such thing in my book as have and have nots.... cant and wonts against doers and dones to me. I totally agree with you Fowgill farm a lot of benefits should be abolished and a lot of healthcare made private to make folk have to get off their bums and do something or look after themselves better. Yes they have prvate health in the US and probably the most unhealthy population in the world but they are responsible for themselves and no hard worker has to pay for their ways.. Good luck on your son with what sounds like a very interesting job but remember who is keeping him there . Everyone can do something even if its buying a ladder and a sponge and going window cleaning and good luck to anyone who does it. But we are what we make of ourselves, everyone has the same educational prospects available to them in this country , no excuses to me please. As for the rich families they are down to someone in history being a hard worker and bloody earning it. You are right Fowgill Farm when you say jealousy has a lot to do with divides . My Dad stated off as an apprentice dyer and became a top manager of the biggest carpet company in the world, my old farrier could not read or write but took his exams verbally and became one of the top farriers in Yorkshire doing a lot of display work at shows as well. Everyone is born with the same opportunities it is how individuals choose to use them is what makes a person and money. I could go on but you get my drift.
Unless you win the lottery of course!!!
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so that will be the carpet baggers that are the haves and buying jewelry never seen the point to it (jewelry that is ) it is something to lose get stolen or get caught in moving parts and just what is the point of having a Rolex when the sun can tell you the time :farmer:
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To take a slightly different tack MAK, the reason people are buying gold and jewellery etc is that it's not easy to print more of it and reduce its value. Land is similar, but of course its price depends significantly on the availability and price of credit.
As for Range Rovers, I suspect if we knew just how much of the range rover folks actually own and how much still belongs to the finance company, that might tell a different story too!
I have friends who on the surface look very 'moneyed', but once you know the facts, it's obvious that very little of it is actually theirs anyway - everything has been financed through loans, or by remortgaging as house prices rose over the last decade. I'm not making any moral judgement on that, but since I'm sure my friends are far from unique, that would go a long way to explaining the sort of things you and Victorian Farmer are talking about ;) .
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When I was 17 and just about to take my A-levels in a few months time, I found myself under quite a lot of pressure from my parents to work in the family business. My Dad had worked hard - literally an East London barrow boy who'd put himself through college and built up a very successful business over many years. As an only child it was a lot of pressure that I faced :-\
Dad still quotes me to this day "When I tried to get my daughter to take on the business she said 'Dad, one capitalist b*st*rd in the family is quite enough....". I went on to be an NHS nurse.
Looking back - did I make the right decision? It must have felt awful for him - all that hard work which was then sold onto strangers.
Yes - I made the right decision. I didn't want to run an engineering company - I wanted to look after people. ;D
[size=78%]Don't get me started on benefit 'scrounger's though - where we live there are far, far too many (and they have more holidays than us, in nicer places, their tele's are bigger and their kids have i-phones...but are they truly happy?...) [/size]
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well having worked on housing developments you saw the new owners coming into there house all new furniture then the new cars and all on 120% mortgage
oh and the range rovers discos or freelanders they were doing them at 50%deposit and nothing to pay for 3 years that was when the warranty was up hand them back and start again :farmer:
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here we go again, another walk down bigot street.
has anyone actually looked at the job market? or the housing market for that matter.
minimum wage £6 odd an hour, average rent 120/week you do the maths. the poor still have to pay all the taxes the rich do, in fact probably more because the rich disguise earnings.
tax credits are paid to people earning a wage, even up to 43k/year, why because a working wage isnt enough to cover basic needs, why, because the property market is so vastly over inflated. thats how the rich got rich, yes hard work is essential but most of it has come from the property rip off.
on the radio today, 275000 new families are formed in the uk yearly, only 15000 houses built to house them.
it is very easy to sit and look out over your land and preach. try taking a drive into an innercity housing estate, if you dare. catch up with the reality of the uk today. no jobs, no industry, no housing and no hope.
i hate benefit scroungers as much as anyone, i work as close to fulltime as i can being a fulltime single dad, but i couldnt get anywhere near coping without some help from the government, and i get paid nearly 3 times the minimum wage. god knows how a youngster in a city is supposed to cope.
and dont forget that the biggest loss of revenue to hm comes from buisness tax evasion, not from people on the dole, they cost pennies in comparison.
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Thank you, deepinthewoods, for your voice of reason. There's so much hate coming off the screen, I was just about to close down in disgust.
I'm another one of the "have-nots". Not that I'm complaining about it, but it's a fact. And I have worked hard all my life. But it's just not true that "everybody can buy a ladder and go out window cleaning" - or whatever else is suggested. A lot of people have health problems, that don't make them conventionally disabled, but still restrict the types of job they can do. I am currently without a full time job. Not my own fault, as they say; but that's how it is. (I have worked for the same company for about 10 years, but they are "re-structuring".) And now I am so old (54) that nobody else wants me any more. Oh, I keep busy; but I earn very little.
Also - personally I don't know any "benefits scroungers". However, I do know several people who, like me, would rather jump off the nearest bridge than go to the job centre and beg for the pittance they allow you - if you fulfil all sorts of conditions. Because there I was treated like scum - not by all the staff, but by enough. And I am in a bad enough condition anyway, not having a job and having to ask for money, I don't need bullying on top of that - quite frankly, I don't need help to feel suicidal.
Rant over.
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Yes, thanks Deep and Ina.
Even if we were able to grab a ladder and bucket, I think we'd struggle to make enough not to be on benefits of some description.
I've worked for 22 years at well paid jobs. Two failed marriages and the housing market slump means I own no equity in a house despite having paid a mortgage for those 22 years. And no, I haven't been living the high life.
My pension is put off to the point (68) where I know I will not be able to continue my currently very demanding job (high pressure 70hour week) til then. Who's going to re-employ me once I turn 50? If I have to change fields, I'll start at the bottom again.
I face the very real prospect of having nowhere to live at 68, having worked my socks off for 40 years. Don't tell me that everyone who's struggling is lazy. Some may well be, but for a lot, life circumstances have conspired against us. If you're not in that position, count your blessings.
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Not at all! There are people who need and deserve the benefits they are awarded. My distaste is for people who are clear faces in my head and who I know for a fact wouldn't want to work as they've said so. I'm not thinking of faceless crowds when I say what I do. My mum was on disability benefits prior to reaching benefits age - they helped to pay for some modifications to allow her independence for longer. Others who've fallen on hard times through no faults of their own deserve support and I fully understand that and agree with it.
I think once you've heard with your own ears someone ridiculing you for 'paying for their holiday' as we have with a certain man who lives near here, it makes my blood boil but like I say I'm actually thinking this with people in my mind who I know are laughing while others work (because they've said so!)
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I wish i hadn't bothered to read >:(
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I think once you've heard with your own ears someone ridiculing you for 'paying for their holiday' as we have with a certain man who lives near here, it makes my blood boil but like I say I'm actually thinking this with people in my mind who I know are laughing while others work (because they've said so!)
Yes, that would make me pretty cross!
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Anyone holidaying on benefits...well, wish they would tell me how. I barely kept a roof over my head. And yet, who can blame someone who will financially be better off on benefits than working? Doesn't that tell us that wages are too low? Reinforced by the subsidisation of business via tax credits (instead of actually paying a living wage)
I watched the middle class tv prog with the artist, was quite interesting actually, I'll have to catch up for the working class one and see where I fit ;)
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I wish i hadn't bothered to read >:(
why?
because maybe its scary? that you can work your whole life and still not get the security of a home to call your own? for some, maybe quite alot of people on this PUBLIC forum this is a fact of life.
ive lived under 2months notice to quit all my adult life. im qualified, i work damned hard and im the best at what i do. im a father who wants the best for my daughter, i have to live with the fact ill never leave her a house or home and i get SICK to the back teeth of people telling me to get a B>>>Y window cleaning round. GET a GRIP.
there are NO houses left to start on this moneymaking bandwagon. these grossly inflated mortgages ARE the countrys debt. and guess what, im helping pay that off my 'benefits' have been cut by £40 a week in a year, and i owe nothing to anyone!!!
when this country goes broke, it wont be my fault.
im rather p.....d off that this naive and patronising topic has come up again. i will, whenever this subect comes up keep repeating what ive said in the hope that it eventually sinks in. and no, i wont go away.
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One word: scapegoat.
Sure explains all the lurid headlines. Easy to rip each other apart over £40, £60 a week than to take a cold hard look at the entire system of doing business and (not) paying taxes...
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It seems to me that this argument only ever comes from one side of the fence. I have no problem with the benefit system in principle. It was brought in to help people in need but nowadays it is a meal ticket for some.I think the majority on benefits are deserving and many deserve more but the ones we always hear of are the scroungers but that is the world we live in bad news is good news.
My wife owns a successful business that she has built up over the last 12 years and employs about 30 people and treats them very well. We are also in a new business partnership with a friend of ours and employ about 15 people at the moment which will double this year. We are high earners, we pay all our taxes but more importantly we have risked everything we own to be where we are today and if it wasn't for people like us a lot more people would be without jobs.
So like the people on benefits don't label all high earners as shallow money grabbing buggers.
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I'm not very good at debates, especially heated ones and never know how to put what I think in order.
When I finally came back here from Ireland, broken by exhaustion and anxiety, I found that what our home over there sold for wouldn't have bought a large garden shed in England (and that was 25 years ago) Boy!! was I grateful for the benefits system here, with four young children and nowhere of our own to live (thank God for family or what would I have done)
I was thankful daily that I could bring up my children and help them to adjust to such a new way of life all the while thinking of a black South African friend who had to leave her children with her family to work in England just to get her children a decent education so that they could find a better life.
Dave, your daughter needs YOU, not the trappings that money can bring, no-one would grudge you a bit of benefits to help bring her up.
On the other side (if you haven't fallen asleep or given up reading :D ) there is a man who lives across the road who recieves disability benefits. He recieves these because he carries a walking stick.....and I mean CARRIES a walking stick. It does touch the ground occasionally when he's not doing a bit of dog walking or gardening for others and he relies on it heavily when going to the doctor's surgery ::) I know it must be nigh on impossible to police everyone who claims benefits but it is such as this man who makes it hard on others and makes folk think that everyone on benefits is a fraud!!
As to the haves and have nots, well if every single person in this country were stripped of what they own and all given the exact ammount of money I am sure that in five year's time there will still be those that have and those that have not, it's the way of human nature :)
Hope you can make sense of my ramblings ;D
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I think you've both said what I was trying to (but I messed it up!) basically the people my problem with are the fraudsters who laugh about what they are doing NOT people like DITW (who I have a lot of admiration for by the way, I think you are a brilliant Dad and a really nice person). I claim child benefits so would be a hypocrite to be saying otherwise!
If I were to divorce my husband now, I would be heavily dependent on benefits to get me back on my feet and that's no-one's fault (like you've rightly said, Dave)
LIkewise, I couldn't have taken on my Dad's business as I never earned it (nor did i have enough passion or interest in what it was about). I wanted to work hard and make my own way in life (even though I'm never going to be rich !)
I hope this makes sense?
I felt very uncomfortable going to bed last night that I'd upset people on this thread and that was never my intention. We have a benefit fraud (well 3 or 4) near us and one of them is the man who threatened to harm my children and turn my goats into curry (he's a total ar$e) so every time I think of 'benefit fraud' I get a surge of hatred, mainly aimed that that little twonk. There is a huge difference between benefit claimant and benefit FRAUDster :)
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We need a group hug smiley :)
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Plums, you would have to work a bit harder than that to upset us ;D :-* :-*
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She would ;D :-*
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absolutely. :bouquet:
my vitriol is only aimed towards those who think benefits are payed to the lazy.
a 'one up one down' starter home here in cornwall will cost you best part of 250000. not 50000 like 20yrs ago. thats the problem, the average wage in cornwall is 16000. the majority of people do not stand a chance. a mortgage used to be 3.5times your yearly income, fully achievable with hard work. now its more like 20times your income.
i often employ people as subbys to cover my lack of hours but as yorkshire lass said this is all propped up by taxcredits so people who want work doing get it done subsidised by the government. it makes no sense.
its admirable that businesses employ people but i would humbly ask how many of those staff are on benefits aswell. if they werent, and a proper wage had to be paid would there be any profit left?
to be honest, i dont do badly, but i havent had a proper holiday for 7yrs and i spend 150 a year on clothes(for me), its all about priorities and my daughter goes without nothing and thats how i judge myself. Not by how many homes i own (paid for by people on housing benefit).
thank you for listening!!! rant over :innocent:
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DITW yes some of the people my wife employs are on benefits of some sort but surely it is better to be working even with a little state help than being on the dole.That is what benefits should be for not as a substitute for working. It is all about work ethic, I would rather be working even on a low wage than claiming benefits and not working.
People today all seem to think they are worth £30k a year, well it doesn't work like that. As Sylvia said if you gave everyone the same amount of money you would still have the haves and have nots. To me it doesn't matter what you do for a job we are all part of the big picture wether you clean the sewers or are Prime minister we are all important and society can't function without any of those people, maybe with the exception of traffic wardens :-J But saying that traffic wardens were welcomed back on the streets of Aberwystwyth recently so even they are wanted. :thumbsup:
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But saying that traffic wardens were welcomed back on the streets of Aberwystwyth recently so even they are wanted. :thumbsup:
Oh I don't know...didn't some awful deep floods hit those very streets too ;) :innocent: could it be a sign?![size=78%] [/size]
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It seems to me that this argument only ever comes from one side of the fence. I have no problem with the benefit system in principle. It was brought in to help people in need but nowadays it is a meal ticket for some.I think the majority on benefits are deserving and many deserve more but the ones we always hear of are the scroungers but that is the world we live in bad news is good news.
So like the people on benefits don't label all high earners as shallow money grabbing buggers.
Ditto agree with this, we have a small building firm, and given the amount of money we give to HM govt each year we both get really riled by the scroungers and cheats(everybody knows somebody on the fiddle!) whilst deserving cases often do not get the real help they need. I have currently spent a year on the NHS getting my back seen to, at every turn they push you to go private and to be honest we can't afford to what really riles me is how many fiddlers are bunging up/abusing the system, often i go to my clinic and people who are crippled at hospital are seen skipping down the high street half an hour later! We both work very hard for what we have,as BB says maybe its just all we hear about is the bad stuff and thats what rankles and causes division & jealousies.
There will always be a class that can afford the jewllery that MAK's son makes always has been, the USSR tried making everybody equal didn't work, Mugabe has tried it in Zimbabwee hasn't worked, Cuba doing it and most of poulation live in poverty. Its the way it is and you do the best you can with the stuff that life throws at you.
Mandy :pig:
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Benifits.
Iv'e never claimed any because I got of my arse every day for the last 55 years and earned my keep.
I get really angry that people think they have a right to handouts to keep them.
Stop these bloody breed sows having kids to get more benifits. All fathers should be forced to pay for thier children not the British taxpayers.
Another goverment who seem to have thier heads up thier arses.
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People rarely talk politics or social matters these days so I'm pleased that my original post developed as it did.
Me - sorry to say that I left a lot behind in the UK but my brothers share the same opinions as others have posted. My family have wealth but I chose to take a bit and set up home so I can live like a peasant ( no benefits except health care becuase I pay French Tax on overseas bank accounts).
I am a socialist at heart ( rember them) but then that is maybe becuase I can afford to be one.
keep it coming - as long as we don't get personnel we should upset anyone. ;D
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should or shouldnt? ;D :thumbsup:
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CF, I too have worked hard all my life because I'd rather be earning myh own living than claiming benefits. However, when I was made redundant last year, a month after my sixtieth birthday, I had to claim JSA so we could live. My husband is totally blind and has poor co-ordination so cannot work. I haven't had so much as an interview for all the jobs I have applied for over the past year despite applying for eveything I was capable of doing. Meanwhile, my advisor at the Jopb Centre was advising me that, because of my husband's disability, I could claim Income Support and Carer's Allowance. I preferred to continue to look for work but what chance do I honestly stand? Ok, employers are no longer allowed to ask for DoB or age, but they can ask for education. I left school in 1968. It doesn't take much working out to see that I'm not in my early thirties.
I am now old enought to be on State Pension but I'm still looking in the jobs pages in the paper, still registered with a number of agencies. I agree that there are those who don't want to work and manage to bleed the system for every penny they can, but most of us aren't like that.
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Actions have consequenses....this is the message that is missing here in the U.S. (and a lack of basic economic understanding, ie. nothing is free, someone is putting up the $)
Live responsibly and things usually work out fine. (Stop dwelling on the unfairness of things. Life has never been and will never be fair. But life can be good!)
The freebies that the gov't doles out allow the irresponsible to continue their irresponsible ways.
Women get knocked up....no worries, no judgement just $ and an unintended insentive to have more kids to get more $$ (yes they do have more for that reason).
Divorce because someone isn't "happy"... don't worry you can sign up for this program and that to cover expenses.
Man is a druggie...$ for his "addiction disability" (Everyone gets a label over here. That entitles them to even more free $$)
And so it goes!
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Reverting to MAKs question about who is buying top-end jewellry the answer is tourists. Luxury brands have been doing extremely well but they don't cater for you or I, unless your farming is a great deal more profitable than mine.
The international shopper comes to London and spends heavily. She, and it mostly is a she, maintains several houses around the world and comes to the UK for its political snd financial stability relative to home. Rich Gulf Arabs, Russians and Greeks are very familiar with the risks of political instability so they spread their assets around. London is a nice place to live and also has nicer weather than Doha at this time of the year. Usually.
The most-visitd tourist destination in Oxfordshire isn't Oxford or its universities, nor is it Blenheim Palace. It's Bicester Village, an outlet centre occupied by Prada, Gucci and the like, which sells more stuff per square foot than any other shopping centre in the world. Children Railways is moving the line and building a new station there because of the volume of tourists. Station signs are in lots of languages, particularly Chinese. 200 million newly minted Chinese middle class people want to travel and buy authentic goods, not Chinese rip-offs!
Mulberry, who make bags, just had a 22% drop in share price because of a blip in sales. They didn't fall, but in the last few months didn't rise as fast as the analysts hoped. They were still up 38% on the year though.
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you intrigue me simple Simon a one time banker or involved with the banking industry now turned to the soil but you keep up to date with the relevant movers and shakers :farmer:
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Yes as Simon says. I read that Paris is loosing millions of euros becuase of the ban on the burka - many rich midle easterners are now going to London ( and I guess Oxfordshire - not for raincoats I guess). My son's future employers did say that they will be targetting the far east with high end stuff.
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Thank God, I say for the haves! Without them where would the have not's be :-J
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The elite will be fine , as always , the so called middle class will have the biggest change and the rest will have to do or die . This is what i think is about to happen any minute now .
The Greek thing is about to implode , now that the uk , germany etc etc have had time to get their money out of Greece . The Spanish thing is a total joke , as will be the Italian one about to kick off .
The whole system is going down faster and faster . All they can do is throw ever bigger amounts of non existant money at the crumbling corrupt banks , and the corrupt governments that just want more money via taxes , and to pay out less and less on services those taxes are meant to provide .
The welfare state is just about to end . There will be nothing !
The thieves , crooks and fraudsters , otherwise known as mp's , bankers and big business , just got so greedy they just fecked it all up . Yet still they want more !
The western economy is about to collapse and tptb are looking for another get out of jail card , WAR !
That way 'they' win all ways . 'they' make billions of £ $ € and they get to get shot of a few million scroungers in the process .
If it doesn't kick off beforehand , keep your heads down when the olympics begin !
They can't keep inventing silly amounts of money to give to themselves , the 0's will just run out !
Corruption and greed is endemic , pandemic even . The greed for money is on their scale , now a joke . The greed is now for power , control . War is the only answer . Who pays the price ? , the scroungers , the benefit claimants , the so called middle classes .
Is there any way to avoid it ? , nope ! the only way would be to hang those responsible , the mp's , the bankers and the big corp bosses , the elite . Won't happen , so war it is !
Then it all starts again , the corruption and greed because the same cnuts will still be in charge , and the plebs will be wanting their bit too .
For my part , i say feck it all ! i am out of it , i want no part of it .
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Blimey Rustyme exactly how many chips do you have on your shoulder.
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rofl , in reality bb none . Any i may have had i left behind when i stepped off the merry go round .
Judging by some of the comments on this thread already , there are some with more chips than Mcdonalds , let alone any i may have .
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aye more chips than the mccain chip factory could produce ;D :farmer:
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Well I do think all will go dawn very soon.not a happey world we live in
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Have any of you ever heard the word OPTOMISTIC if not look it up.
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Nope , never heard of that one .
Heard of optimistic though ! (the view that the existing state of things is the best possible .) thank f*ck i am not optimistic .
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you intrigue me simple Simon a one time banker or involved with the banking industry now turned to the soil but you keep up to date with the relevant movers and shakers :farmer:
Its force of habit, Robert. You can't do a demanding job for 40 years and then just stop. I can't unknow all the people I know, and I still get invited to things. Breakfast on Thursday with the head of one of the larger Spanish banks will be particularly interesting!
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you see that is just what i mean i bet none of the former staff of the banks would get an invitation for scrambled eggs maybe they are looking for a sub :innocent: :farmer:
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ok,
the chip on the shoulder thing really got to me. i have spent some time deep in thought and i admit that i do sound like i have.
i want to make it clear that i have nothing against the 'haves' they pay my wages and i respect their achievements. i realise that my posts didnt come across that way.
ive also realised that its my choices that have put me in the situation im in. if it wasnt for my choice to step up and care for my daughter, or leave my ex, i could have probably got to a stage where i could have bought a house, i would have done it up, sold it, and worked my way up too.
ive also recognized that the goalposts have changed, it takes a couple working to afford a mortgage nowadays, not a single dad,
that ive swallowed.
im happy with my swap of getting richer for bringing up my girl and i think this thread has helped me realise that.
sorry if ive offended anyone, but there are people out there who are trying and working hard but know its never going to happen for them please bear them in mind, theres lots of us.
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Dave, I don't think you've offended anyone. If anything, you have just given us all food for thought and broadened our scope for thought (mine anyway).
Be proud of who you are, your choices and what you are achieving - being a fantastic Dad is no mean feat :bouquet:
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It is me who is meant to have the king edwards on me shoulder Dave , not you ! My reply to that was directed at the ian duncan smith followers that blame everything on to the millions of unemployed , not at you . You are savvy enough to know there are good and bad in all walks of life , and on the whole give and take far better than i do . Nothing i said was directed at you mate !
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I can't see anything on this post that could have offended anyone. Surely it is a discussion with a group of people with different opinions what is offensive there. We all come from different backgrounds with different jobs and different hands dealt. People like DITW and Rustyme I have a lot of admiration for, you can tell a lot about someone from how they deal with bad situations, get off their arse and deal with it or wallow in self pity and blame everyone else. We will never all agree with each other on everything but if we did what a boring world it would be.
I was explaining to my eldest son who is training to be an accountant and a little up himself that everyone is important whatever they do for a job we all need each other to make it work. My Grandad always used to say if you work for a living you are working class whatever you do and I am a great believer i that.
Yes Rusty my spell check didn't pick that up didn't try hard enough at school.
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I am fundamentally an optimist. There will be an economic recovery, but not yet. There's too many things yet to be fixed, and most of the solutions are uncomfortable for voters. Voters elect governments, so governments tend to be short term thinkers. But the biggest issue is the Euro where I can only see the turkeys continuing to vote for Christmas.
In the UK the problem is still the banks. Government doesn't understand banking (well Cable may, but Osborne certainly doesn't) so the management of the situation via the Bank of England, the FSA and HMG as shareholder continues to be inept. The banks' own management teams remain amoral but the hand-in-the-till problem is less of an issue.
What they won't talk about is the consequences of a 20 year boom in asset prices. HMG liked it because it made the economy look rosy and householders all liked it because they felt wealthier. My late mother bought a flat for £100k in 1998 and it was sold for £240k in 2007. That increase in value did nothing for her but increased the cost to the next owner. Commercial property prices did the same, and the banks are now reaping the consequences as prices fall back towards value. This hasn't happened to residential property which overall remains unaffordable for normal people. That my property has an inflated value doesn't help my children get their own places - one of them is moving back aged 23
When that happens it will be painful for owners (remember negative equity from the 1990s) and for the banks whose lax lending encouraged people to borrow too much so they could profit from an ever-increasing tax-free ride.
The recovery will only come when people actually see it and stop being scared.
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I speak for the thousands of bank workers who strive everyday to earn enough to keep them out of poverty. Believe me, the person who cashes your cheque in your local branch (if it's still got a counter of course) is earning a pittance. The person who agrees your car loan will also be on lowish wages. They will only be able to earn any sort of bonus if they meet and exceed their quarterly targets which are decided by the number or credit cards and loans WITH PPI you sell and by what the financial planning managers or mortgage advisors can sell to your referrals. These targets are increased to an impossible level each year, regardless of the economic climate. Their names will probably be on a huge board in the back office, with their daily sales denoted on it, and those at the bottom of the board are shamed.
I know of several directives that came down from "on high" that declared that personal loans would only be agreed if they were protected, with no exceptions. I was so uncomfortable with this and other rules, it made me ill. I know of several others, mainly lower level managers who have also suffered in a similar way, some actually having breakdowns. Its not a very nice industry to be in anymore.
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My nephew's wife works for RBS - has done since she left school, so 20 years or so and she hates it. She says that when she started, it was a service industry; now it's all sales and pressure to sell. :(
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When I started in banking in 1972 at a branch of the then Midland Bank the effects of the Barber boom driven by the Competition and Credit Control Act 1971 were starting. Prior to this the banks didn't compete on price, on products or on anything. Credit restrictions limited their lending, so they didn't offer domestic mortgages. Building societies (owned by their members) were very conservative and required evidence of the ability to save for long periods before a loan (at best four times the man's wage) was granted.
The result of the previous era was that a whole generation of Capt. Mainwarings had achieved seniority without ever having to make credit decisions. Opening the floodgates of credit in 1971 led to the crash of 1973/4 as the banks lent too much to the wrong people to do stupid things. Does this sound familiar?
I was taught that a loan had to be for a defined purpose, over a defined period and repaid from an identifiable source. Realising security was pawnbroking not banking. It was felt that customers has to be saved from themselves.
Rosemary, your relative is right. RBS' branches in Scotland were renewed for their customer service, particularly compared with the old Williams and Glyn's branches in England. Sadly the conversion of bank staff into double glazing salesmen has been all too successful.
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My Dad's family lost their cash in a bank in the late 1930s and he dealt with cash for years until he sold a house and could not get cash for it. He then had to open a bank account and made good use of them therafter. If it was not for their lending I am sure things would not have turned out as they did for him. I would say if anyone has any cash then in recent times a lot can be made on gold ( not the heavy worked jewellery stuff that will cost in the workmanship) just a simple chunk.
I've done so much digging this weekend but did not find any! ;D
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I agree Simple Simon, any Tom Dick and Harry can get a loan now and find any excuse not to pay it back. Bring back the old days of having to prove yourself to get a mortgage or a loan. This society of buy now pay later has ruined this country and why should they blame themselves when there are 'fat cat' bankers to blame!
We were sat in town yesterday when my daughter remarked on a girl whom she knew was on benefits shoving a fish and chip supper in her mouth(.£ 7.00 odd up here) My OH remarked "oh she will be alright , I am paying for her chip supper and her heart attack too!" benefits to me should be paid in tokens just like rationing in the war.....kids clothes, toiletries, food etc . generally the basics . might give folk an incentive to work to buy their fags and booze. Child benefit should definately be paid in tokens.
ps I know there are folk on benefits that are really trying and dont want to be on benefits and good luck to them ,on further education or searching for a way out of their situation , they are the doers as much as someone working, full respect to them. It is the cants or wonts that need sorting out.
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I was on JSA etc for a few months last year.
IMO social security and a health service represent an accomplishment of civilisation, not the opposite as some have suggested.
JSA is hardly enough to live on, and anybody who thinks otherwise is living in a dreamworld.
The ammount fraudulently claimed pales in insignificance when it is compared to tax avoided, and yet we dont see 'we are watching you' govt campaigns aimed at corprorate tax avoidance.
Its sole purpose is to get the have-nots squabbling amongst themselves - 'divide and conquer'.