The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: WarescotFarm on June 11, 2012, 09:44:18 pm
-
We have 2 weaners on their way to slaughter in 2 weeks
We are a family of 5 and will take forever to get through all the meat, can we sell it onto friends or do you need special licences etc... to do that
we are defra registered, tagged, going to abitoire, prepared by butcher etc...
thanks e
-
if it has gone through all the official channels and been prepared by a butcher in registered premises there should be no problem
Arl
-
To be strictly within the rules, the meat needs to be transported in proper refridgerated transport on every stage of its journey, not just a cool box or box with ice bags. So ideally anyone buying it would be picking it up direct from the butchers (assuming this is at abbatoir or delivered to butcher in butcher or abbatoirs refridgerated van) or direct from the abbatoir (if it wouldnt be).
-
To be strictly within the rules, the meat needs to be transported in proper refridgerated transport on every stage of its journey, not just a cool box or box with ice bags. So ideally anyone buying it would be picking it up direct from the butchers (assuming this is at abbatoir or delivered to butcher in butcher or abbatoirs refridgerated van) or direct from the abbatoir (if it wouldnt be).
i met with our local EH inspector and asked him about this and i knew u could use commercial freezeboxes with icepacks. i was expecting him to demand refridgerated van etc but he just said get a polystrene box in the back of the car and that will be fine.
-
To be strictly within the rules, the meat needs to be transported in proper re-fridgerated transport on every stage of its journey, not just a cool box or box with ice bags. So ideally anyone buying it would be picking it up direct from the butchers (assuming this is at abattoir or delivered to butcher in butcher or abattoirs re-fridgerated van) or direct from the abattoir (if it wouldn't be).
I'm interested to hear the part regarding abattoir / butcher needing to transport it in a refridgerated van. I thought our abattoir / butcher had stated to us that even they do not need a refridgerated unit to move meat between their shops! Can you point me to the regulations?
-
To be strictly within the rules, the meat needs to be transported in proper refridgerated transport on every stage of its journey, not just a cool box or box with ice bags. So ideally anyone buying it would be picking it up direct from the butchers (assuming this is at abbatoir or delivered to butcher in butcher or abbatoirs refridgerated van) or direct from the abbatoir (if it wouldnt be).
i met with our local EH inspector and asked him about this and i knew u could use commercial freezeboxes with icepacks. i was expecting him to demand refridgerated van etc but he just said get a polystrene box in the back of the car and that will be fine.
Yup, my EHO said the same, but we are about 20mins from the butcher so I would expect if it was a greater distance/time they might be more insistant on temperature control.
We registered with trading standards so we can sell meat to the 'general public' straight from home (as opposed to farmers markets - they need a bit more faff ;) ) The only real requirement is that you have a seperate freezer for the stuff for sale, practice good hygiene and stock rotation and are paying attention to temp and showing best practice with regard to moving, handling and storing. It doesn't cost anything to register and you will get a visit - but it's nothing to worry about, they really just want to make sure you're doing it well and are mostly really helpful and approachable. ;)
If you think it'll take forever to get through all the pork, get lots of sausages made :thumbsup: They store easier and are a great freezer standby ;)
HTH
Karen :wave:
-
... and also - youd be surprised how quick you can eat a delicious pig!! With a family of 5 too. There are only 3 of us and we have a joint or chops and a cooked breakfast at weekends and sometimes sausages in teh week and I recon we've eaten one of our 2 since march. Wish we'd made more bacon - we did have lots of sausages made and that was good.
-
I THINK most food regulation now tell you what you have to achieve but leave how you achieve it up to you. For example, the regs may say that walls in a food premises have to be able to be thoroughly cleaned - but how you achieve that is up to you - stailess steel, plastic panels or whatever.
So regarding the temperature of fresh meat, the regs are likely to say that the meat must be held at a temperature below 5C. How you do that is up to you and will depend on the quantity of meat and how far it is travelling. You will also have to prove that your systems are appropriate, so records of temperature etc. will have to be maintained.
-
I THINK most food regulation now tell you what you have to achieve but leave how you achieve it up to you. For example, the regs may say that walls in a food premises have to be able to be thoroughly cleaned - but how you achieve that is up to you - stailess steel, plastic panels or whatever.
So regarding the temperature of fresh meat, the regs are likely to say that the meat must be held at a temperature below 5C. How you do that is up to you and will depend on the quantity of meat and how far it is travelling. You will also have to prove that your systems are appropriate, so records of temperature etc. will have to be maintained.
we are starting off slow by just selling frozen packaged meat - as it comes from the cutting plant / butcher.
when i met with EH he was happy for the concrete floor to be painted with garage floor paint, no need for handwashing facilities or washable walls. im from a catering background so know what EH inspectors insist on in food premises, but apparently that only applies if u are a) selling fresh meat and b) weighing and measuring it yourself. if u have sealed, wrapped meat, then it is so much easier, if it is vaccumed wrapped, then even better.
i would like to progress to having an area where i can make sausages/hams etc but in the meantime selling frozen meat suits me.
the EH was v friendly, knowledgable and helpful. so dont feel worried by speaking with them.
:wave:
-
To be strictly within the rules, the meat needs to be transported in proper re-fridgerated transport on every stage of its journey, not just a cool box or box with ice bags. So ideally anyone buying it would be picking it up direct from the butchers (assuming this is at abattoir or delivered to butcher in butcher or abattoirs re-fridgerated van) or direct from the abattoir (if it wouldn't be).
I'm interested to hear the part regarding abattoir / butcher needing to transport it in a refridgerated van. I thought our abattoir / butcher had stated to us that even they do not need a refridgerated unit to move meat between their shops! Can you point me to the regulations?
It is what I was told by council as the requirement to keep under 5 degrees (some say 8) cant be guaranteed with a a cool box/ice packs. But since the requirement is to meet the temperature, I guess if you are confident it will stay under the temp the whole journey (eg if it isnt going a long way) then in practice that would be OK.
The safest way for you is for the customer to pick up from somewhere in the processing chain where it has always been refridgerated.
Friends are sometimes only friends until one gets food poisoning, the lure of compensation culture.....
-
I would like to collect the meat cut and sausages from the butcher and pack & label ourselves. Does anyone know what hoops we would need to jump through?
-
The easy answer is LOADS :o
You'd basically have to have the same set up you'd need for butchering. Double sinks and a seperate handwash one, washable surfaces and floors, temperature controlled area for working/storing the pork, then you'd have all the sampling and labelling stuff to contend with - weights and measures etc.
Talk to your environmental health and trading standards folk si-mate, but honestly, unless you have a couple of free rooms and a bit of cash to set it up you'd be better off getting the butchers to do it for you :thumbsup: Then all you need to do is add a label to identify or 'brand' it - talk to the butcher also, you might be able to get labels made up to your design or with your logo to go through their printer ;)
I don't mean to sound negative about the doing it yourself bit - but there is a lot to it I'm afraid :-\
HTH
Karen :wave:
-
Lots, if you are packing yourself, then EH will need to approve your premises.
On labelling, you'll come under the Food Labelling Regulations 1996 (FLR) which say you must describe the product correctly eg “leg of pork” is leg meat from a pig, it must have a weight that is correct (both not over or under – EH usually approve your scales), have a use by date that has a logic behind it, and any storage instructions relevant to that (eg keep refrigerated if your use by date assumes that it is kept in a fridge). Where there are additional ingredients, these must be listed (but some are allowed to be excluded) in QUID order.
You’ll also come under the Meat Products Regulations 2003 for your sausages, with a sausage needing to contain at least 32% pig meat, and if you are going to call it a “pork sausage” then at least 42% pork meat. Having said that “meat” is defined by EC directive 2000/13 as amended by directive 2001/101 as “Skeletal muscles of mammalian and bird species recognised as fit for human consumption with naturally included or adherent tissue where total fat and connective tissue do not exceed”...fat 30% connective tissue 25%.
So a pork sausage can consist of 42% meat, which in turn may only have 45% real meat, in other words a “pork sausage” may actually only have 19% meat, with the rest being fat, connective tissue, rusk or other fillers.
-
God you all make it sound so complicated it is going to be prepared at their local butchers i am sure he will be regulated and know the necessary procedures its just a matter of selling the prepared packaged meat.
Arl
-
Ah, no Arl - just to clarify my last post was in relation to the question asked by si-mate who wanted his butcher to cut, but he was going to pack, wrap and label it himself (as I think is Oaklands ;) )
Karen :wave:
-
Sorry got bogged down and missed a bit it deviated
Arl
-
Interesting read so far.
I think we may raise a few eyebrows here but we do opperate within local law and are registered keepers of pigs for home use.
Our 2 pigs were slaughtered very professionally outside their sty in March,cleaned and wrapped in cloth then hung overnight in our barn. The experienced slaughterer was our neighbour and he took a bucket of blood and returned with black pudding the next day. I butchered the pigs in our kitchen using sterilized tools and good hygiene - the OH weighed, labelled and bagged. She took charge of making hams, bacon and the 3 different sauasages. We have not sold any meat but I did stuff a head, a few joints and some chops in bags for our neighbours.
Now this may all sound outrageous given the strict regs quoted above but is it not what smallholding should be about. Good animal welfare, simple and practical stratergies, a few skills, pleasure, satisfaction and sharing with friends and neighbours ( who return the kind).
-
The reason I quoted the law was that this is a complicated area legally - in fact what you are doing Mak comes under some even more obscure laws to do with "placing on the market". I quote so that people know what they should do to be legal, not to judge or condemn, and to help them avoid being done by the nanny state we live in nowadays.
Officialdom enters every nook and cranny of our lives nowadays, and you make your choices as to what laws you obey, and how open you are about this. I suspect that the vast majority of people reading this post have driven (or been driven without complaining) in a 30mph limit at a faster speed than this. Drive at 45mph past a school at 3.15pm, and you should in my view be done. Do it at 3.15am and I would suggest you should not.
A return to more sensible days when you did people for doing wrong, rather than stop them doing anything that could go wrong in the first place, but no-one has even sucessfully backed out a regulation once made, and no-one is allowed to decide risk for themselves. Right I have now got off the soapbox !
-
good post oaklands, I dont think anyone on the thread is really necessarily 100% to the letter on everything, and common sense can and should prevail.....hopefully the thread will mean that when common sense or neighbourliness etc means deviating from 'the Rules', one is aware of that fact and assessing that the benefits of doing so outweigh any theoretical risks.
-
mak is in France and although part of the EU the rules and regs are wildly different from here in the UK and even in the UK it depends on the area that you live in and what problems that EH officer has come across
interesting the bit about labelling and does the butcher that is doing the cutting packing and labelling put his labels on or yours on that has /has not been approved if it is his then (splitting hairs)there is no real identity to that product being yours other than coming out your freezer :farmer:
-
had our 7 kune kunes butchered 2 weeks ago we shared it half and half with sons family, so far us 2 have had hot dogs a few times, burgers, ribs, belly, shoulder, chops, scotch eggs (our meat our duck eggs)....you have a family of 5.... i wouldnt be parting with any of it how big are they and how long will it take to grow the next lot........ one down side is i useually buy a rack of ribs when i go to a resturant, now ive had my own kk ribs i cant buy them at a restaraunt anymore
-
we are a family of 5 and could easily eat 3 6mth old finishers a year. it keeps v well in a deep freeze.
if uv only raised 2 and hvent anymore yet, id keep it yourselves.
-
Lots, if you are packing yourself, then EH will need to approve your premises.
On labelling, you'll come under the Food Labelling Regulations 1996 (FLR) which say you must describe the product correctly eg “leg of pork” is leg meat from a pig, it must have a weight that is correct (both not over or under – EH usually approve your scales), have a use by date that has a logic behind it, and any storage instructions relevant to that (eg keep refrigerated if your use by date assumes that it is kept in a fridge). Where there are additional ingredients, these must be listed (but some are allowed to be excluded) in QUID order.
You’ll also come under the Meat Products Regulations 2003 for your sausages, with a sausage needing to contain at least 32% pig meat, and if you are going to call it a “pork sausage” then at least 42% pork meat. Having said that “meat” is defined by EC directive 2000/13 as amended by directive 2001/101 as “Skeletal muscles of mammalian and bird species recognised as fit for human consumption with naturally included or adherent tissue where total fat and connective tissue do not exceed”...fat 30% connective tissue 25%.
So a pork sausage can consist of 42% meat, which in turn may only have 45% real meat, in other words a “pork sausage” may actually only have 19% meat, with the rest being fat, connective tissue, rusk or other fillers.
That's very helpful, thank you. None of the issues there would be a problem.
Would a domestic kitchen be suitable as premises or are we looking at plastic panelled walls, stainless steel benches etc.?
-
if the meat for your own consumption you can slice it and dice wherever you deam appropriate if not then it has to be in a separate building with wash down walls plastic/tiles and all stainless equipment :farmer:
-
Yes as Robert says I live n France and the point of my post was to demonstrate how the heavy regulations may not apply in other parts and just how it restricts traditional lifestyles ( smallholding) and that thing called goodwill - giving or swapping with others. I understand the concern for food standards (given the farming/ production disasters in recent times) but the laws and officaldom have changed an age old way of life and the nanny state has won in the UK.
I say swap your surplus meat with friends or family and ask for things in return that have value for you. Maybe that keeps you within the law and helps you sleep at night.
-
I say swap your surplus meat with friends or family and ask for things in return that have value for you. Maybe that keeps you within the law and helps you sleep at night.
If only it did - technically as long as the meat has been killed in an abattoir, cut in a cutting plant, packaged there, labelled correctly, displayed (if need be) in hygienic surroundings & moved at correct temperatures, then you're all ok. Any change to any of the above starts to get you into more murky waters.
Giving meat away is still considered a "placing on the market" so is not allowed unless the above is followed.
For instance a butcher as opposed to a cutting plant (the latter has a meat inspector present) means that legally you cannot sell your meat to the public (this is the difference between a wholesale butcher and a retail butcher). I don't know any TS that will do you for this, but that is the law, although as far as I know you can still sell privately from a retail butcher - that is to persons known to you under a personal agreement between you - ie not advertised.
Killing yourself - that is killing the animal not suicide! (or any killing at home by anyone else) means only your immediate family living with you can eat it.
Start doing a process to meat - eg sausages, cutting at home, or cooking and you'll need EH involved, and need a food certificate. Packaging and labelling within a domestic environment is possible, but you'll need to satisfy EH that you can get and keep your surfaces clean - that means no pets in the house, and the right weigh kit! We have friends who used to do this, but TS were very hot on them and regularly checked, and they had a chill van that the meat came straight out of and straight back into, then direct to farmers market - a domestic fridge would be a real no-no. Anything beyond just packing, and you'll need dedicated areas - expect to pay several thousand and not be able to use it for anything else !
-
this is getting very interesting oaklands from what you have printed in your last post unless the producer of pork has the cutting plant and all that goes with it IE fridge van food hygiene certificates public liability insurance etc they are stuffed or cant do it unless they eat it themselves
we have come across the placing on the market at the gow show with sausage samples from the sausage comp the first show in Scotland to ban the handing out of samples and touch and go whether the judge was allowed to even taste them but as with all things legal it is interpretation :farmer:
-
i know someone who had the refridgerated container (ie without the lorry section) to use as a kitchen, on the farm. EH approved it and was a v clever idea.
-
i knew of two instances one was a small van body the other was a refrigerated container as both had the certificates before EH could not withhold them :farmer:
-
we have come across the placing on the market at the gow show with sausage samples from the sausage comp the first show in Scotland to ban the handing out of samples and touch and go whether the judge was allowed to even taste them but as with all things legal it is interpretation :farmer:
Ah, but you didn't speak to the EH who covers South Lanarkshire (or, if you did - it couldn't have been Carol)
You can't give/sell/hand out samples of anything that's been made in a non-approved premises (anyone making them at home) but you could have handed out the butcher made ones, so long as you follow the rules and regs relating to food hygiene with raw & cooked meats and have product/public liability insurance :thumbsup: That's what I was told during a phonecall to aforementioned EH officer ;)
I have a sheet designed for folk going to farmers markets and handing out samples, I'll email it to Lil if you want, it gives good guidance - but as I say, it doesn't apply to anyone making them at home :( Unless they've got EH approval.
Karen :wave:
-
the winter fair at ingilstone only two sets of sausages were made in approved premises and all sausages entered were cooked and handed out any previous comps to that one the sausages were handed out as samples and one comp they actually sold the sausages cooked to the public
it was the gow that were dealing with EH and feedback since the show is that south lanarkshire had the biggest outbreak of e coli and were looking for any excuse to shut them down
it is all down to interpretation ;) :farmer:
-
had our 7 kune kunes butchered 2 weeks ago we shared it half and half with sons family, so far us 2 have had hot dogs a few times, burgers, ribs, belly, shoulder, chops, scotch eggs (our meat our duck eggs)....you have a family of 5.... i wouldnt be parting with any of it how big are they and how long will it take to grow the next lot........ one down side is i useually buy a rack of ribs when i go to a resturant, now ive had my own kk ribs i cant buy them at a restaraunt anymore
Thanks for all the advice, this forum is great!
We want to do KuneKune next time but have heard the meat is not as good, what was your experience of it?
-
everyone on here with kunes raves about them , cant compare as dont know never had anything else to compare only supermarket stuff... but so far very tender at 1 year old just right amount of fat not much .... loads more meat than i expected on little pigs...doing them again mainly because easy to keep, less destructive than others i think and not big eaters but dont be in a hurry, so ime now another fan of the KK club
-
Totally echo Harry on the KKs. They only get fat if you either overfeed them or feed them the wrong stuff (eg barley or too much protein). Make sure they have plenty of room to run about, so they build muscle = meat :yum: Basically, if they can't run then they're overweight.
:love: :pig: :love:
-
Lyn you have not tried your oh osb yet any pig will layer the fat on if fed incorrectly and you could eat one (a kunnie )at one sitting and anyway you are all going of the point of the original post :innocent: :farmer:
-
my 7 just butchered came to a total of 280klo of all cuts inc 4 hams, 70klo sausages, 16klo sausage meat, and 10klo small bacon plus 180klo all the other cuts leg shoulder liver etc etc, thats about 40 klo of meat each pig, not fat, thats a hell of a pig out for any obese family to eat in one sitting. if youre asking and you did then try kunnies soon