The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: smudger on May 30, 2012, 10:23:23 am
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Orijen comes up consistently as a top dry dog food but also at a top price.
[size=78%]http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=2299&cat=8 (http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=2299&cat=8)[/size]
I am also a bit uncomfortable about the food miles (its Canadian, as seems to be any of the alternatives I can find). Not sure if the high protein/meat (80%) is strictly necessary for non/lightly -working dogs but don't want the low-meat/loads of fillers either. I also had to feed minimum portions to keep weight of my westies.
Anyone using/found a more reasonably priced, British/European grain free, high meat dry dog food?
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I have been using Dr Johns (Silver) for my dogs for years, they are in top condition for both work and show, shiny coats, plenty energy. They are a high energy breed anyway so I can't give them much more than 20 to 21% protein, and not too much fat, although they do occasionally have a little olive oil added, and an egg every now and then(because I have them readily available and they enjoy them more than any other reason)
I have tried other more expensive brands over the last 30 years and found it made no difference to their condition so have always reverted to Dr Johns.
Feeding dogs is always a very subjective and arbitrary issue and I believe it has been discussed on here before, so you will no doubt get numerous different opinions.
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I should have added that my dogs get a few scraps/ spare eggs so get added protein as well.
I will have a look at Dr Johns, thx.
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We feed Carrs Billingtons own feed and do keep going back to it. It's £9 for a 15kg sack and really suits them. We've fed Skinners in the past, but it's £5 dearer and as we are feeding 11 dogs, it does get quite expensive.
We have also found a supplier of minced meat, which we are feeding them in the morning.
Agree with Annie, feeding dogs is very subjective and everyone has their own personal preference. I just feed what I feel is best for my dogs, within a budget and have got dogs ranging from 1 year to 15 years who are all doing well.
Helen
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Couldn't find Carrs on web as a product; Dr John's unfortunately isn't cereal free.
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I use Symply dog foods as they get very high ratings and are high in proper meat and not fillers.
They deliver to my door even in Aberdeenshire and the dogs love it. I get the senior light one and that has MSM/glucosamine in it for their joints.
It's made in the UK too.
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Couldn't find Carrs on web as a product; Dr John's unfortunately isn't cereal free.
The picture of it is on here http://www.carrs-billington.com/shop/farm-supplies-agricultural-equipment/pet-products/dog-food?product_id=94800131100 (http://www.carrs-billington.com/shop/farm-supplies-agricultural-equipment/pet-products/dog-food?product_id=94800131100)
Just reread your post and you don't want anything cereal based so it would rule it out though.
Helen
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I work with someone who owns a white Boxer who is intolerant/allergic to certain foods/additives and she was advised to use James Wellbeloved food. It works for them and she swears by it.
Also Wainwrights do a cereal free dog food, I've seen it for sale at Pets at Home.
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Nothing that's cereal free will be cheap, cos cereal is the cheap filler.
I have one very allergic old dog on James Wellbeloved Large Breed - she is doing very well on it.
My 'perfectly fine and healthy' collie is on Dr John silver and the local feedstore unlabelled meat tins
My 'tendency to diabetes and therefore fat' collie is on Beta Light and the meat tins
The indoor cats are on Origen, and Bozita packets, both low carb to keep their weight under control
Lol, you can imagine feeding time here and that's before we start outside :D
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Heidi my little terrier is fine with anything so gets whatever the other dog/ s are having.
I've tried different types of dry feed but go back to eukanuba each time. The last 2 GSDs I tried on pro plan both suffered pa osteitis which cleared when put on eukanuba and a lurched with gut sensitivity did great on it where other feeds gave her the runs.
Poos are always little too so very little waste with it. which is great when picking it up on walks.
each to their own on this topic definately.
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In the end I trialling Acana. Made by same company as Orijen but lower protein % (and cost) - £50v £70/80 for Orijen. Made with same ingredients apparently so should be same quality.
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Why don't you make your own dog food, I buy the cheap mince and chicken from Tesco to add to my dogs food. Its cheaper than the pet mince and they love it. My lot get fresh veg most days and eggs now and again. I also get broken fish from my local fish shop when they have it. I bulk cook and freeze.
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I was told by a supplier that many dog foods vary little in contents, as there are now strict guidelines as to what can be included ??? . Not sure if there is any truth in this. A lot of the more expensive dry dog foods upset my lads tummy and cheaper ones seem to suit him better.
My neighbour uses Dr Johns and when I looked after his dog, my very fussy boy seemed to enjoy this food too.
Could a vet advise you?
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Salters are a small British company making high quality food, and they are very helpful to speak to. Mr Salter will explain exactly what is is their foods but I'm not up to date with what they are producing. They will deliver a min quantity of 3-4 bags if there is no local stockist.
Mine are now fed a dry food made locally - Futures. They are also very helpful.
I did a nutrition study at college a few years ago comparing different dog foods and it is a minefield :-\ - and expensive does not always mean it is best for your dog. Also lot of well-meaning and experienced folk have VERY different ideas ::) .
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When we still had our muts we fed them Orijens and it was fantastic. At one point OH decided to switch to something cheaper but it didn't work out that was as we had to feed so much more of it. With the Orijens a little goes a long way - and we were feeding a Wolfhound so that makes a BIG difference :D
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I muddle between feeding raw (heart, liver, chicken, pet mince) and "Fishmongers" salmon and potato http://www.petsathome.com/shop/fishmongers-adult-dog-food-with-salmon-and-potato-10kg-by-pets-at-home-58386 (http://www.petsathome.com/shop/fishmongers-adult-dog-food-with-salmon-and-potato-10kg-by-pets-at-home-58386)
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CSJK9 fantastic foods but then I would say that as I stock it!
We started feeding it after we had a dog diagnosed with epilepsy and she needed low protein additive free food and since then we have never looked back. Made in the UK by a farmers daughter and stocked throughout the UK. Very reasonably priced and great variations to choose from.
www.csjk9.com (http://www.csjk9.com)
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Unfortunaely I would not agree about csj & epilepsy. I fed my epileptic dog on it for a few months & her fits increased. They decreased when I put her back to her original food
Rose
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I'm trying Arcana, made by Orijen using same quality of ingredients, just more vegetables, about £20 cheaper a bag (still £50 mind). 60% protein instead of 80%. Dogs liking it, no change in poop. Even the cat has a nibble.
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I'm trying Arcana, made by Orijen using same quality of ingredients, just more vegetables, about £20 cheaper a bag (still £50 mind). 60% protein instead of 80%. Dogs liking it, no change in poop. Even the cat has a nibble.
60% protein? Are you sure? I'd have to scrape my Brittanys off the roof at that level. Can't give them any more than about 20%, even during the season. Some friends of mine feed raw but they are even at a similar level by feeding vegetables to balance the meat and bone content.
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http://www.championpetfoods.com/acana/show-product.php?formulation=phfd (http://www.championpetfoods.com/acana/show-product.php?formulation=phfd)
Yes 60%. Orijen is now 80% (previously 70/75%).
No fillers see? Don't think it would be protein that would make dogs hyper rather than starchy carbohydrate fillers (same with horses, not high protein but high starch the problem - not that I'm feeding my mare anything more than 10/11% mind).
Wolves would be eating primarily meat diet. And this is less smelly than a raw food diet.
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Hi
A really good option instead of Orijen is Fromm which you can buy from Doggie Solutions. They also do a cheaper working dog food which is VAT free. I buy both Orijen and Fromm
Plymstock (S Devon)
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Humm that is way to high protein. Most pet dogs need around 18%. its prob that high as its poor quality.
Please don't confuse dogs with wolves, they are a different species and have a VERY different digestive system and dietary needs. Wolves like cats are a true carnivore and dogs are an omnivore with a fairly large caecum for digesting plant starches. Dog get more energy from fat and protein than carbs/sugars.
a pet dog needs approx 16-20% fat and usually under 25% protein- depending on if its plant or animal and the quality/bioavailibility.
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We've tried various foods over the years with ours - Setters, Dalmation (now over the Rainbow Bridge) & Weimaraner.
Found Royal Canine "Puppy large breed" great for them when they were young pups, but too much for them after 18 months ( 10 months for the Spotty & Weimy) :excited: :excited:
We now give them all Dr Johns Silver with a dollop of minced raw chicken & they look great (& behave fairly well ;) ).
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Dr Johns and the like are not grain free unfortunately as far as I'm aware.
A few British grain free foods are as follows:
Applaws
Canagan
Green Dog Food- Salmon, Trout & Vegetables
Lilly's Kitchen (Grain free varieties)
Nutrix Duck and Potato
Simpsons Premium (Grain free varieties)
I personally feed my dogs a balanced raw diet (DIY style); sources from local butchers and game shooters. Mine are thriving
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Humm that is way to high protein. Most pet dogs need around 18%. its prob that high as its poor quality.
Please don't confuse dogs with wolves, they are a different species and have a VERY different digestive system and dietary needs. Wolves like cats are a true carnivore and dogs are an omnivore with a fairly large caecum for digesting plant starches. Dog get more energy from fat and protein than carbs/sugars.
a pet dog needs approx 16-20% fat and usually under 25% protein- depending on if its plant or animal and the quality/bioavailibility.
At last someone with good sense, I've been trying to get that across for years. Pet dog owners juts won't listen, they think of they pay £50 a bag for food it must be better than something half that price. Just isn't true.
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Humm that is way to high protein. Most pet dogs need around 18%. its prob that high as its poor quality.
Please don't confuse dogs with wolves, they are a different species and have a VERY different digestive system and dietary needs. Wolves like cats are a true carnivore and dogs are an omnivore with a fairly large caecum for digesting plant starches. Dog get more energy from fat and protein than carbs/sugars.
a pet dog needs approx 16-20% fat and usually under 25% protein- depending on if its plant or animal and the quality/bioavailibility.
A quick word about protein vs meat content.
Orijen does not contain 80% protein. Nor does Acana contain 60% protein.
They contain 80% and 60% meat respectively.
Meat does not equate to protein levels.
Orijen in fact contains 38% crude protein.
Acana (Wild Prairie) contains 31% crude protein.
What is your source for your statement that most pet dogs need around 18% protein?
You are in part correct in your statement re dogs being able to digest cereals.
The digestive system of the domestic dog and it's wild cousins (wild canine species and wolves of course) are almost identical. A recent study found that both dogs and wolves have the genes (the amylase enzyme) that encode enzymes needed to break down starch. The difference is that the sample of domestic dogs in the study showed a huge range in the amount of these genes in any one dog, compared to the wolf sample.
"When we look at the wolf genome, we only see one copy of the gene [for the amylase enzyme] on each chromosome. When we look at the dog genome, we see a range from 2 to 15 copies..."
The large range amongst the domestic dog sample explains alot. I hypothesize that it suggests why many dogs do perfectly well on diets containing cereals and grains, whereas those with a relative lack of copies of this specific gene may struggle. This lack of copies of the amylase enzyme means that their body struggles to break down starch (thus grains).
Another point to consider is that even dogs with a reasonable number of copies of the gene, may still struggle on some commercial foods because the crops produced by early farmers (which these dogs adapted to be able to digest and survive on) would have been massively different to the same type of crops now produced in the world today. This is a result of international business, imports and exports, advances in farming technology (fertilizers, pesticides etc) and means that these crops (with the additives needed for their production and transportation/importation) may still pose problems for some dogs.
The problem with the study is that the sample size of dogs was considerably larger than that of the wolf sample. I also think that if they were able to study this on a large scale, they may get some more answers.
Speaking specifically about my breed, I was recently speaking to a breed expert who was saying that she feels that many working type border collies can tend to struggle on certain commercial diets because their ancestors would not have come across commercial diets, unlike other breeds/dogs of the same time living in an urban environment. She says that the country, above all places where sheep are farmed (when you can't do anything else with the land you bung sheep on it- they are hardy buggers ) were the last places for commercial diets to be introduced to, meaning that many lines of working sheepdogs were fed as had been for years on offcuts from the local butcher and human leftovers.
My family live in the Scottish Highlands and farmed sheep there and my grandmother was telling me about how her grandmother used to make the sheepdogs' food. A mixture of waste/offcuts from the butcher, left overs from their sunday dinner (and sometimes mixed in with some porridge oats and stock). Another thought is that specific breeds of dog are better able to digest specific crops/cereals from their region/country of origin. My hill dog can manage better with oats but really struggles to digest any other cereal types and can become quite unwell.
I personally feed my dogs on a raw diet because one of mine has chronic health issues and simply cannot digest grains properly. If he does get grains, his health problems flare up. My other dog, is a good example of a dog I hypothesize would have a reasonable number of copies of the amylase enzyme as she can digest grains and has no problems doing so. But, she is fed on raw because she likes it and I know she'd choose it over kibble any day! I've never seen a dog enjoy their food more in fact and she thrives on it.
It's not a one size fits all approach.
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I feed Simpsons Sensitive (grain free) and my dogs are doing really well on it. I used to feed Arden Grange, which I was also pleased with, but wanted a grain free diet.
[size=78%]http://www.simpsonspremium.com/sensitive-dog-food (http://www.simpsonspremium.com/sensitive-dog-food)[/size]
It is less expensive than Orijen and as we breed ISDS registered working collies, we have a breeder account which makes the food even more affordable.
I also supplement my dogs diet with eggs, mince and raw chicken (wings, necks, thighs etc). They also get wild rabbit at least once a week.
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I have to admit I find the wealth of information/ opinion on dog food very confusing :-[
I think in the end you have to try different foods and go with what suits you / your dog and your pocket. There is a great website which has a breakdown of a lot of different foods so that you can quickly compare several different brands, which I found invaluable
www.whichdogfood.co.uk (http://www.whichdogfood.co.uk)
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im suprised no one hasnt mentioned Burns. created by a vet, quite pricey but im sure its made in scotland/uk.
wev used it for gsds and terriers. never had a problem. was recommended by our "strict" dog trainer in england, infact she was adament we used it, maybe she has shares ...lol.
we used cjs for a while as our terriers breeder used it on her show dogs but postage was more than the food, as we are in scotland.
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This was an old post...
Tried CSJK9, no problems with it, just postage bumps up cost. There is also another company Eden pet foods who are competing at the top end / high meat content and british made. Also used applaws for a while, which seemed good but had a few runny stools which could have been dogs picking things up rather than product (they were also doing a buy two bags on special offer which brought price down).
Now feeding pedigree vital as recommended by dog trainer. Its not the quality I'd like but its cheap and easy to get (2 bags for £45, from a well known pet chain). Now having 2 collies instead of two wee westies, the rate of consumption is astronomical!
Burns ahs a good reputation but does have grains in it and I always surprised at how 'light' the kibble is - almost like rice crispies.