The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Goats => Topic started by: clydesdaleclopper on May 14, 2012, 05:44:48 pm
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Our old nanny died today :'(
Do you know if we can bury her as she was a pet? I have looked at the Animal By-Products (Scotland) Regs but they don't give a definition of pet.
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I'm sorry :-*
Strictly speaking you can't - despite the fact that they may well be, agricultural animals don't come into the pet category. But who will know? I would, just as though she were a dog.
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A friend of mine had a pet sheep pts by the vet and was told she could bury it, her partner who had to dig the hole thought it would have been better to pay the £15 disposal.
Don't know if Scotland is different to Wales and not sure the vet was right in this case.
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Bury her........ carcase collection in Devon is around £50 per carcase !!!!!!!!
Plant a tree over or to the side.... great way to remember old friends,not forgetting trees for the future.
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The extra hassle is that we now need to get another goat to keep our remaining lady company. It isn't easy getting goats up here.
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Where are you?
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Aberdeenshire / Moray border
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Our old nanny died today :'(
Do you know if we can bury her as she was a pet? I have looked at the Animal By-Products (Scotland) Regs but they don't give a definition of pet.
You definitely are not allowed to legally, all wild or farmed animals (including all sheep cattle and goats geese ducks and farmed deer) in non-remote areas (none of Aberdeenshire is classed as remote on the map they publish) must be dealt with in the approved way ie via an approved fallen stock, hunt kennels etc.
The only way they might see it as acceptable i guess is if you had the animal cremated as there would presumably then not be a potential disease risk.
Pets are classified as non farmed species (so including pet horses, dogs, cats etc). Even then the following rules must be followed:
- burial sites are at least 250m from any well, borehole or spring that supplies drinking water or water for use in a farm dairy
in England and Wales, burial sites are at least 30m from any other well, borehole or spring, and at least 10m from any field drain or watercourse
in Scotland, burial sites are at least 50m from any watercourse and at least 10m from any field drain
there is at least 1m of subsoil below the bottom of any burial pit and 1m of soil to cover the carcasses
there is no standing water at the bottom of the hole when you first dig it
you do
not leave pits open or carcasses unburied as dogs, foxes and other scavengers could gain access to them.
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Bury her........ carcase collection in Devon is around £50 per carcase !!!!!!!!
Plant a tree over or to the side.... great way to remember old friends,not forgetting trees for the future.
rules are there for all of us to abide by and in taking on a animal we accept the rules and the expences incorporated in keeping livestock, the carcase should be collected by the hunt or knackerman.
a tree is a nice way of remembering a loved animal though.
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Sorry for your loss, CC. I paid £18 to have my girl removed and the man was very good.
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rules are there for all of us to abide by and in taking on a animal we accept the rules and the expences incorporated in keeping livestock, the carcase should be collected by the hunt or knackerman.
Rules are made for the 'big farmers' and rarely fit smallholders' situations accurately.
A good idea to understand why the rule was made, but I was always told 'rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools' ;)
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Had I been in a position to dig a deep enough hole in such hard land, I'd have loved to have kept ours here. Sadly it was not to be so we had the awful 3 day wait with a beautiful Togg nanny laid in a wheelbarrow, in the garage while the collection people dithered about remembering to get her :'( Then they top it with the insult of a £30 fee.
Having had our cat dug up by the fox you would need to make sure you dig very deep to avoid the distress.
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rules are there for all of us to abide by and in taking on a animal we accept the rules and the expences incorporated in keeping livestock, the carcase should be collected by the hunt or knackerman.
Rules are made for the 'big farmers' and rarely fit smallholders' situations accurately.
A good idea to understand why the rule was made, but I was always told 'rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools' ;)
my point is rules change over the years and taking on livestock you know you have to abide by the rules no one likes them we just have to work with them and to say bury a animal against the rules on a open forum is not the way to go imho (sorry but broken rules started the FAM outbreak).
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She won't be buried - I was wanting to clarify the legal position and as I am not allowed to I shall be calling the knacker man this morning.
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Good on you CCC :-))) Im so sorry you lost her :-(((
[/quote]Rules are made for the 'big farmers' and rarely fit smallholders' situations accurately.
A good idea to understand why the rule was made, but I was always told 'rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools' ;)
[/quote]
Theres nothing in the rules that makes them more or less sensible for smallholders, other than the bigger marginal cost, but we all know that's the case when we get the animals. Its quite fair to apply the rules to big and small livestock owners: disease doesnt choose only to target megaholdings, though any outbreak has a far bigger impact if it does happen on a large scale place.
Where it is silly is the fact than in the event of a disease outbreak the first thing the authorities do is order burial on farm - thats where the madness lies.
In any case these arent 'guidance' rules but the law.
Our ram was removed within 4 hours of the vet PTS so it doesnt always take a long time, they have always been here same day for all casualties. Even tho they are coming from over 2 hours aways.
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I'm sorry, I just re-read my post - I should say it was an exception that Avocet was left here for so long. The male kid we lost and then a ewe last year were all collected same day. I was just trying to say that had we been allowed/able to bury the goats that we consider pets we would have avoided that stress. I am sorry for your loss CCC xx
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L&M who do you use?
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So sorry to read of the sad sudden loss of your goat. Then the shock and upset is compounded by uncertainty over rules and regulations - it doesn't help, does it?
One thing I am not clear on: having disposed of the animal by whatever means other than through huntkennels etc, surely you still have to account for the circumstances of death and subsequent removal/burial in the endless defra papertrail? Otherwise, there is nothing to stop multiple animals entering the food chain without going through the right channels/checks etc with unscrupulous people claiming to have buried them.
There is a very shabby/dodgy farmer near me who to my certain knowledge dumps sheep carcases in a small wood to be scavenged by foxes. I can only assume their eartags are re-used on other illicitly acquired undeclared sheep or how will the paperwork add up?
When the system is thrown into the spotlight as it was with F&M and everyone gets more sensitive about which animals came and went, just to say that a goat (or sheep/bullock etc) died and was buried won't be acceptable and could lead to costly consequences. Better to pay for official collection/incineration than that!
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L&M who do you use?
I use the National Fallen Stock scheme which for us has been Douglasbrae Knackery in Keith. I like it because once you join (£10+vat when I did it) you set up a direct debit so when an animal needs collecting you just ring them and then you dont even have to be in/watch etc). National falen stock number is 08450 548888
They have also started their own scheme outside the NFS scheme, which is cheaper. For this you can contact them direct on 01542 882728
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Douglasbrae Knackery in Keith.
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We used them last year for a ram lamb lost at 3 months - although I was pretty upset through the process they were efficient and respectful and certainly didn't make me feel like a silly woman
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rules are there for all of us to abide by and in taking on a animal we accept the rules and the expences incorporated in keeping livestock, the carcase should be collected by the hunt or knackerman.
a tree is a nice way of remembering a loved animal though.
Does anyone actually dispose of the afterbirth legally (http://animalhealth.defra.gov.uk/managing-disease/animalbyproducts/fallen-stock-faq.htm)?
Q20: Can afterbirth and/or stillborn animals be buried?
A: No. The routine on-farm burial and burning of afterbirth and stillborn animals etc. Is not permitted.
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So what are you supposed to do with it?
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The goat or nature usually sorts that out.
Talking of which when those dogs killed my goats the police told me to leave the carcus for phorensics (which never turned up)...carcus was gone by the next day,which is quicker than the knackerman who has taken till the goat nearly walked out by itself! ;)
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Puffin 'ate' hers.
JJ - we probably use same knackerman, seeing as we live about 2 miles apart. Did the dogs come back for the carcus or other predators then? Horrible really - still can't believe the way that was dealt with by the authorities but there you go x
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My two ate some of theirs, but some say it is best not to let them eat it. Rumour has it that domestic goats lack certain enzymes.
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The dogs were taken straight to the kennels (until they were returned to their owners which I found out the second time I attended court >:( ) Nature doesn't take long to dispose of a carcus so that it is no longer a desease risk...unlike the government and the knackerman.
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The bury/ not bury is an interesting topic. Yes all farmed animals should be collected by a knackerman and disposed of properly. But if you had that animal for 10, 15, 20, even 30 years in the case of some horses- who would say that the animal wasn't a member of your family?
I have a friend who kept a long letter writing debate ongoing with the Scottish animal health section regarding her horse (who was perfectly healthy at the time but was 28 years old). Her point was that she and her sister had owned that animal since they were children, it was a part of their family, and after all you would not expect a member of your family to be collected by a knackerman and thrown onto a truck. They did eventually admit to her (in writing) that if a case like that went to court, where she did bury a 30year old horse, it would be highly unlikely that she would be convicted of anything or even fined. Because what jury in the world would think you had done something wrong by burying a much loved family member on your own property, in a responsible way(ie away from water courses etc).
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Horses are OK as they are not agricultural as long as you follow the rules re: watercourses etc to avoid pollution. So the council would certainly lose the case as long as the rules were followed.
The issue here for OP is that it was a goat and therefore the full weight of the no burying rules applies (to all sheep goats and cows geese and ducks without exception)
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I realise I'm coming into this very late on but as it was our first year kidding this year as a business I contacted the the chap who removes the whey from the dairy department and the meat and bones from the butchery department.
He was really helpful and gave us a small wheelie bin on loan in case we lost any kids or for afterbirth. We got 95% of the herd kidded (all ate the afterbirth before we had a chance to remove it!) and then the last sodding 2 left the afterbirth!!
It has cost us £20 to get it collected however we now have a paper trail and it was kept in the bin which meant that no vermin/scavengers could get to it.
In my mind, although expensive, when we next get our visit it is one less thing that animal health can pick us up on. Anything that we can do to be professional and reassure them results in a more peaceful relationship all round. That's worth £20 in my book.
:wave:
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Last time I connected the local hunt about removing a goat (note LAST time!) they quoted £40!!!! :o that when the live goat would only fetch about £30 ::)
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I wonder what all the sheep farmers, who lamb a few hundred or thousand ewes on their farm do with their afterbirths....
Most of mine (ewes and goats) will eat it and I leave it in for them to do so. It is full of nutrients and one less thing for me to worry about... in case it comes up on inspection - ALL of mine will eat theirs :innocent: ...
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I'm with you on that one Anke I thought that's what every one did
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Red Kites and buzzards eat our afterbirths on the hill if the sheep don't. We also allow them to eat carcasses for a sensible period (three days) then all we pick up is wool and bones. These are taken to the incinerator. I would certainly consider burrying a pet goat though!!! Don't tell DEFRA.
Afterbirths from sheep born inside go to the incinerator along with any dead lambs. Thankfully our dead lamb numbers are few.
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Cremtor, near Newton Abbot in Devon, charge £10 to dispose of a dead sheep or goat , providing you take it there and nothing at all for dead lambs or goat kids.
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I do know a goat keeper who told me that a dead kid fitted perfectly in her Rayburn.
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I do know a goat keeper who told me that a dead kid fitted perfectly in her Rayburn.
I wouldn't want to stand downwind of her house !