The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Land Management => Topic started by: tinytribe on May 04, 2012, 07:34:50 pm
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Hello :wave:
We are looking some plots of land to make in to a small holding. We are looking at anything from 8-17 acres. Does any one know the guidlines for getting planning permission for a static caravan? We have heard keeping pigs help, also burning charcol. What are the truthes in those? Are there any other ways that we could get permition to live on our own land?
Has any one ever been able to live on their land due to disability? Ben (my fiancee) is my carer and is unable to work because of my mental and physical disabilitys. If we were to live on our land he would be able to work the land but also be near enough to still be able to care for me and our son.
We have so many ideas that we would like to do so we are open to any ideas that may help us :)
Thanks
B n b :)
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This is complicated. My understanding is - for England - that if the land exceeds 12 acres there is a right to build buildings for agricultural use but notice of intent must first be given to the planning authority before anything happens. That right excludes residential use but there is a presumption in favour of permission where it is shown that there is a genuine and proven need for a dwelling in connection with an agricultural enterprise. Permission will generally be given for a mobile home for a few years while the viability of the enterprise is proven, and any permanent permission will be subject to an agricultural tie.
We have friends who achieved this and finally were able to build a house. The film director who sold them the farmland in the certain belief that they'd never get permission was completely livid. He may have thought they were going to grow clockwork oranges rather than goats, however.
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he would be livid that he missed out on the increment of value that a house brings to a small acerage
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He was liviid that the house appeared in the view from his considerably larger house and refused to repair the lane that linked it and several other houses to the main road.
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aye he was wel screwed over then if he could always see it :farmer:
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Hi tiny, you need to check with the local authority in the area(s) you are looking at, there's not just a sweeping generalisation for north of the border and south etc. Temporary buildings generally need permission for that (temporary) but you can have it extended if you haven't finished your permanent dwelling in time. The definition of 'temporary' varies as well so it can be a flimsy thing or something fairly permanent. Generally (and only generally speaking) if you can see 4 other dwellings from where you would plan to build, then its fairly likely you could get permission. Why not advertise in your local farming periodical (farmers weekly etc), you may get some redundant farm buildings you could turn into a house in which case the council may welcome it, or you can keep livestock on some land for a certain period of time and claim that you need to live there to keep them tended too, but councils can see that one coming these days so don't rush to do that. We advertised about 6 years ago in Scottish Farmer and had 42 phone calls offering us places including on the Isle of Skye (too cold). You must be able to do your initial homework via internet on local council websites I should think. But perhaps also consider that if your partner were to injure themselves working on your smallholding (which is very likely at some point), you may be scuppered. Best to have a plan B supporting your plan A. ;)
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I would really recommend having a couple of hours consultation with a reputed planning consultant ~ even bare land will cost tens of thousands so worth spending a few hundred up front. A key aspect will be a viable business plan and a need to be on site. Anywhere scenic is likely to have more onerous conditions and presumption against new build, so looking for a viable conversion would be best but would also come with a premium. I believe the level of income expected to be generated is quite high and it's not as easy as saying 'I have a few sheep'. Prob c. 20k pa. neighbour has 50a and is a local and still no joy. If you do have joy, then planning is likely to be temp and based on viable business continuing. Is a caravan a suitable premise for someone disabled? Be sure you don't box yourself into a corner.
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You can have a static caravan to live in onsite while you build a barn - you can build a barn under prior notification (28 days planning) if you can prove its for the use of agriculture that desnt include animal housing - you can take 5 years to build a barn.
Dunno if that helps?
Basically its a bit hit and miss and alot of working out - otherwise the countryside would just have houses on every mile or so, which it doesnt, which proves it is hard to get.
Good luck.
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You can have a static caravan to live in onsite while you build a barn - you can build a barn under prior notification (28 days planning) if you can prove its for the use of agriculture that desnt include animal housing - you can take 5 years to build a barn.
Dunno if that helps?
Basically its a bit hit and miss and alot of working out - otherwise the countryside would just have houses on every mile or so, which it doesnt, which proves it is hard to get.
Good luck.
For permitted development rights to build a barn you need to have a holding of 20 acres within a certain radius.
There is a book called Field To Farm that gives guidance on this route.....but it aint easy!!!
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Go and get an appointment with your local planning officer , have a rough written outline of what your aimig for and ask for their advice ..
It's usually free and unbiased . once you have the basic rules design your idea upon what you have been told . planning rules change like the wind nowadays. So I'd ofer get the most uptodate info you can right from the horses mouth not second hand /chinese whispers.
When I was collating things to set up our small farm the PO was invaluable and saved me thousands & thousands . So did the county planners who told me I dind't have to pay the average ransom strip fee of £17,000 for heavy vehicular access to the farm as there was no such thing at the property , as I owned right up to the metalled road edge due to the railways act 1820 .
The local PO gave me a good run through of what I should do to ensure success for free .
A planning consultant ( former planning officer ) wanted money ......... starting at £6,000 with no guarantees of success.
You might also fall lucky and manage to get on a free small busines setting up seminar organised by your local bank under some EEC or government assistance scheme.
Project business plans to imply that you are going to try and end up employing three people in ten years time to get on these small setting up seminars..
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Good luck with the planners. My personal experience is that they are incompetent time-serving unhelpful money-grubbing drags on the economy. Come the revolution their place at the gallows comes after the politicians and bankers but before the accountants and lawyers.
But I might be over-reacting slightly.
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I looked into planning for Northumberland and found that they charge for "pre-planning application advice". Helpful enough on the phone but only as far as explaining that I needed to fill in the forms and send them £20
That seems a fair price to pay I suppose but as I understood things it's not absolutely binding. At this stage I just want to know a rough idea for the few properties that we've seen to help decide which ones may or may not have potential. I'd rather not have to submit all the forms multiple times but I would like to know some very general advice like "no extension on a house" or "okay for a small barn/field shelter" or "anything you like in that field over there" etc.
I guess I'm just too cheap at heart... :D
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I looked into planning for Northumberland and found that they charge for "pre-planning application advice". Helpful enough on the phone but only as far as explaining that I needed to fill in the forms and send them £20
That seems a fair price to pay I suppose but as I understood things it's not absolutely binding. At this stage I just want to know a rough idea for the few properties that we've seen to help decide which ones may or may not have potential. I'd rather not have to submit all the forms multiple times but I would like to know some very general advice like "no extension on a house" or "okay for a small barn/field shelter" or "anything you like in that field over there" etc.
I guess I'm just too cheap at heart... :D
You'd probably be better spending £100 with a planning consultant than 5 of those £20 chats. ;D
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Just to clear up a couple of points,, Permitted Development rights only apply to holdings between 0.4 hectares up to 5.0 hectares and farm units of that size only benefit from Class B rights. Over 5.0 hectares (approx 12.5 acres) and you gain Class A rights. Class A rights are more comprehensive, the biggest gain being the right to create new agricultural buildings.
Those rights have to be confirmed with your local planning authority and to seek there agreement. It is not as easy as folk imagine as all the conditions within the regulations have to be complied with. Fail one and the planners will reject your development rights.
As for getting a dwelling on your farm land, that is never an easy task. It is slightly complicated just at this moment due to the new guidelines and policy (NPPF National Planning Policy Framework) being introduced, the wording of which seems simpler but has left a lot of grey areas which need to be determined.
As for the disability issue, I think that would begin to raise some interesting planning issues and might challenge some of the usual thinking, especially when one brings in to play, items like the Human Rights Convention and equality rights.
If you are wishing to pursue the idea further, I write a lot on the Field to Farm forum. Please don't take that as a plug or spam, it's just where I happen to be most of the time with like minded individuals.dealing with agricultural planning issues.
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a very difficult and thorny subject planning
in all honesty any body that comes on a forum looking for advice on gaining planning is either trying to screw the system over or benefit from others long and hard work and using there info as a short cut
i have had dealings with the planners on several occasions and always came out on top why because i read all all the legality's on getting planning my first encounter i was advised to get a planning consultant he did no more than i would have done and £2500 poorer as a result the choice is yours it depends on your aptitude and if you are flush with cash and then the consultant claimed to be expert in getting planning on the issue that i had researched and written out for them as guideline and then used in finall presentation
my last two encounters i did it my way and very successful on both counts
now getting planning on small areas of grass/field or whatever can be financially rewarding if they are persistent enough or dodgy dealings one area was consistently applied for even with a planning consultant and failed even the appeal to the secretary of state at the time failed then a friend on the planning commite managed it but with one of the tightest section 50s ever drawn up this has since been rescinded at great cost and increased the value by £150000-200000 the second development was on the site of a previous house that was flattened because it was in the blast zone of a gas compressor station that was also built with a section 50 and also since rescinded also increasing the value both have set a precedent and will come back to haunt the planners :farmer:
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Robert - what is a section 50?
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section 50 is a legal document tying the house to the land it has to be occupied by somebody in agriculture horticulture or forestry :farmer:
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a very difficult and thorny subject planning
in all honesty any body that comes on a forum looking for advice on gaining planning is either trying to screw the system over or benefit from others long and hard work and using there info as a short cut
i have had dealings with the planners on several occasions and always came out on top why because i read all all the legality's on getting planning my first encounter i was advised to get a planning consultant he did no more than i would have done and £2500 poorer as a result the choice is yours it depends on your aptitude and if you are flush with cash and then the consultant claimed to be expert in getting planning on the issue that i had researched and written out for them as guideline and then used in finall presentation
my last two encounters i did it my way and very successful on both counts
now getting planning on small areas of grass/field or whatever can be financially rewarding if they are persistent enough or dodgy dealings one area was consistently applied for even with a planning consultant and failed even the appeal to the secretary of state at the time failed then a friend on the planning commite managed it but with one of the tightest section 50s ever drawn up this has since been rescinded at great cost and increased the value by £150000-200000 the second development was on the site of a previous house that was flattened because it was in the blast zone of a gas compressor station that was also built with a section 50 and also since rescinded also increasing the value both have set a precedent and will come back to haunt the planners :farmer:
I wouldn't disagree with your comments above Rob. All the info one needs is on the internet these days which gives anyone the chance to learn all the facts. I don't know so much about people asking questions on forums about planning, freeloading others information though. Most people I meet on F2F forum are trying to find out if the information they are using is right as it is not unknown for planning officers to misinform the public (intentional or not I couldn't possibly say!).
As for planning consultants, I've always advised those who are going to use one to make sure they are getting the right sort. Planning is a huge field, just like law. You wouldn't ask a lawyer who specialises in corporate law to defend you against a case of defamation. Likewise, don't expect a planning consultant who works on retail centres to be any good at agricultural stuff. Yes, I am an agricultural planning advisor though I do not get involved with intensive farming enterprises, preferring to work on ethical and small farming ventures only.