The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Land Management => Topic started by: pgkevet on April 29, 2012, 01:01:44 pm
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I only moved in here last september. It took a while to get some of the gear but finally early december I had my tractor and a nice old fergie 2 furrow plough. I ploughed two quarter acre patches for veggies.. the idea being that one patch would be worked on and improved for next year and the other patch for my growing this year accepting results will not be as good as i'd like.
The land i ploughed was into hay meadow for the last 8+ years. The depth of soil is pretty good and medium clay and I ploughed as deep as my 43HP tractor could tug..about 9 inches with nice ribbonlike furrows but some didn't turn completely over. Local advice is that that is due to the thick rooted grassland i'm working on and that makes sense.
I followed on Mid March with many passes of discing and then chain harrowing and got a lovely surface tilth but (not suprised) there are some lines of grass coming through following the edges of the furrows where the 'turn over' was imperfect.
Finally the question. If i replough now then I'm worried that all i do is turn the ground back to the grass side up rather than rebury the new stuff. the option would be glyphosate the regrowing lines and live with it this year on the one patch... and keep working the other... a green manure then cut and turn that in with a mix of woodchip and horse dung middle of the year and again turn during autumn and again early winter...
So replough? Glyphosate? Or just harrow again?
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Hi,
We are doing the same thing for a small veggie plot, I ploughed about 1/2 acre, Power harrowed, spread muck then power harrowed again.
As this plot was very weedy I intend spraying off with Roundup this year and growing on it next year.
Made easier as we are now stockists of Roundup, Grazon etc.
Thanks
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no simple answer there are ploughs and there ploughs all designed for different soil types and conditions also the setting of the plough can have a big influence on Finnish as can the type of grass just because it is green do not assume it is grass good grasses have a fine root system rack knotgrass and others have a much thicker stem system and if your field is infested with them the furrow does not turn over fully also skimmers make a big difference to the finish now if it is rack/knotgrass the amount of times you have disced it has done more harm than good by cutting the root system into small pieces and spreading it
spraying with glyphosphate will kill only the green shoots and more will be left untouched it should have been sprayed before you ploughed it to get the best affect
trying to farm is a bit more complicated than watching a neighbour and doing the same :farmer:
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no simple answer there are ploughs and there ploughs all designed for different soil types and conditions also the setting of the plough can have a big influence on Finnish as can the type of grass just because it is green do not assume it is grass good grasses have a fine root system rack knotgrass and others have a much thicker stem system and if your field is infested with them the furrow does not turn over fully also skimmers make a big difference to the finish now if it is rack/knotgrass the amount of times you have disced it has done more harm than good by cutting the root system into small pieces and spreading it
spraying with glyphosphate will kill only the green shoots and more will be left untouched it should have been sprayed before you ploughed it to get the best affect
trying to farm is a bit more complicated than watching a neighbour and doing the same :farmer:
I'm aware of most of that. This hay meadow is a good mix of plants...not just grass or one type of grass and I also agree that spraying prior to ploughing would have been nice...but when I had decided to plough the temps had already dropped below being worth getting a good spray effect.
If i read between the lines here then you promote spraying now rather than replough straight?
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temp dependant for roundup it has to be actively growing and green it is absorbed by the leafs and translocated to the root system and kills the plant that is why it takes about 14 days to show signs of willting
i would check to see if it is weedy grass then spray dung should be spread on the land before ploughing
you can also green feed it by sowing rape on it and ploughing it back in all the goodness is going back into the soil :farmer:
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temp dependant for roundup ....
..exactly..It was too late last year and still too cold this year...that and finding a 48 hour dry spell here in mid-wales ;D Green manure and dung was my intent as above
I've also considered a compromise..since we're only talking a couple of half acre patches..and that is to spray patch2 when the ground warms enough and it's dry...disc/chain it after 2-3 weeks. The other patch is already being planted up - experimentally to find what grows best here.. with a lot of varieties of spuds/onion sets/leeks and brassicas and has heaps more to go in as it warms - modules by the thousand under glass already going. For the other patch i could replan and just fill it with way more legumes than I can ever use.. again varieties.. and use that as my green manure after harvest and accept the poorer cropping on poorly prepared soil. Cut it all down, macerate it and take my neighbour up on his offer of his heap of rotting horse dung and turn that lot in early autumn - and if the crop is really pathetic then mow it early.
..for the sake of a couple of quarts of beans and peas it should at least fill a freezer 8)
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Sounds like a similar situation to me last year. I put the spuds in , no weed killer, no manure, nothing, just rotorvaterd to a fine tilth, ridging plough and planted potatoes at 12 inch. The spuds did the business, the only weed that has had any effect is dockers. This time my main crop spuds are going in at 18 inch. Dockers still a problem but everything else in the weed department is minor. Other veg going in as well, if and when it stops raining.
Spuds are tough cookies, have faith in them, couch grass can affect them but let them work their magic. I was told that some farmers literally dug a hole and dropped the spud in, into fields or paddock areas they wanted to reclaim from grass and weed. The spuds conditioned the soil and the land was ready for working next season. Never tried it myself but I can believe it.
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Ive had the plough not turning over completely on land which has been let go by the owners and is full of weeds. Does your plough have disc coulters, and are the mouldboards really polished? I suspect that like mine, your land wouldn't be chosen for ploughing contests!
I think you're right that re-ploughing wouldn't solve the problem. Trouble is where we are neither the weeds nor the grass are really growing so spraying's out for the moment and it's too wet to get on the land anyway.
I like your compromise strategy.
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The plough has discs..they were always going to be essential on old turf. The mouldboards cleaned up pretty good on the first patch..both patches turned much the same. No skimmers.
It was my first go at ploughing and it took me the first few furrows to guage an appropriate speed to get the furrows turning over consistently. My feeling was that the failure to fully turn over at times was more a settling back than a failure of the plough...as in springy roots. I was cutting around 8-9 inches depth..as in a good spade down. The furrow spaces all lined up evenly with wheel in last one with the 2-furrow plough and it kept it's depth nicely ..so I reckon my setting was a pretty good starter.
This field drains nicely (the rest are pretending to be boating lakes) - just a shame soil is still so cold. I put some lettuce gem seedlings both here and in a greenhouse at the same time... those under glass are ready for first cutting and those in the field look exactly the same size as when planted.
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no skimmers is the biggest fault they effectively act like another mouldboard and bury the trash at the bottom of the furrow badly set is another reason for not turning over fully :farmer:
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..fair comment.
I had no end of trouble finding the plough...everyone saying they were common enough until I asked them to source one and the spares it needed.
Will do better. :-[
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You're dead right about that. Westlake in Peterborough have lots of plough parts.
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Definately dont replough - no root structure now so wont go over in furrows.
The reason your furrows wouldnt turn over is that you were ploughing too deep I would suggest. The boards on your plough are only designed to plough at 6" absolute max! The plough you have bought is far from the best anyway (sorry!) - you only have to go to a ploughing match and see the work the Fergie class does to see that. However, ploughed shallow with the discs and skimmers adjusted correctly ( skimmers taking just half an inch and discs in about 1.5") it will do what you require. Has it got mouldboard extensions/tailpieces? You can use these to put a little bit of a final push on the furrow if it isnt closing properly.
Regards
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OP - what two furrow plough do you recommend for general use?
I also have a Ferguson plough and am wondering whether to fix it or replace it.
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The problem is that the ploughs that are any good are all popular for match ploughing - which increases in popularity each year. Tractor size can also be the limiting factor as a more modern plough such as a Kveneland would do a good job but at 13" or 14" furrows and a big frame it would need 35-40hp to pull it/lift it.
An older Ransomes such as a TS59 on EP1C, YL183 or TCN boards would be good but they are so popular for matches that even the rougher ones go for spares at silly money.
To be honest, if it were my ground I would invest in a small tractor mounted rotovator - spray out with glyphosate, rotovate well and level off, spray any germinating weed seeds a few weeks later and then plant. A little 2 furrow plough in the hands of a novice (sorry) will likely be far from level and with trash not well buried. A plough like a fergie, even in the hands of an experienced ploughman will struggle to make a good job of anything other than a lawn.
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Thank you. I knew it wasn't a trivial question when I asked it. I've seen two furrow ploughs for sale at well over £2k, and that's because people are paying it.
However, like tractors rotavators fall into Chinese or very expensive, and even the Chinese ones are the thick end of a grand too. I'd have a bit more confidence in the Chinese product if during the time when I travelled extensively in China I'd ever seen farmers using any machinery at all.
The appeal of ploughing is to get the frost into my clay soil.
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Within my own profession i recognise the difference between professional, amateur and inexperience - and indeed differing opinions amongst professionals. I never expected to get this right first time.
The plough was bought as a result of discussion with local agri merchant familair with the property i had bought and my tractors power - and to be fair he did advise that i plough shallower - but that's where the novice tries too hard. I had dug several pilot holes about the place before investing in the land to look at soil type, measure pH's and assess depth of good soil. Equally I accept this is hobby stuff and i have no wish or need to be commercial about it.
The plough does have mouldboard tails.
When we did discuss rotorvators I figured they would really chop up the mess of roots and I would have been heavily dependant on several sprayings and repeat runs to destroy the 'weeds' and like most amatuers i was in a rush to get playing. Where I have mowed and hand rotorvated a small patch or two then small rotorvators really do clog up with turf roots.
There's a dry forcast for the next few days so the spray comes out.
When it comes to ploughing in the green manuring I'll take the extra time to assess the effects of plough adjustments and be more critical of my results. it's going to be different anyway now the soil compaction has been broken up.
I've got plenty of acreage of hay meadow here so perhaps i'll just mow off a couple of acres and practice, practice , practice somewhere..
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There was no slight on your performance intended - sorry if it came over that way. I had visions of my attempts at ploughing as a youngster trying to a rough old patch covered in nettles into a perfect match plot - and the resulting disappointment and frustration. I have been turning the sod for over 35 years now and am still learning every time I go out - I hope it proves as rewarding for you :thumbsup:
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I think there's a skills gap which this forum is hoping to bridge. There's a couple of farms near here of around 700 acres which are looked on as charming anachronisms by the big boys who think the limit of viability is 2000 acres and buy correspondingly vast kit. Perhaps the enthusiasm for ploughing contests is a reaction to the the GPS controlled 10 row monster.
There are local contractors round here with smaller kit who are used by the big farmers for awkward jobs. But they are exceptionally busy when the work needs to be done and their priority customer is the major farmer who gets their attention first second and third.
It is so hard to get either advice on how to do it or indeed anybody else to come in to help so I'll just keep on asking stupid questions if you've got the patience to answer them!
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ploughing and competitions it all goes back to the days of the horse when men were proud to display there skills both on the horses turnout and the Finnish of the ploughed land this also overlap ed into straight drills and perfect stacks and everything else to do with there daily job
sadly that is lacking in modern farming speed is more important than perfection
anyway ploughing skills there are farmers that have ploughed for generations and still make mistakes and these that are champions but could that champion make a decent job with your land and your tractor and plough
these champions have home made ploughs with weights and hydraulic rams to get the perfection required make of plough ransomes Massey Ferguson international and David brown all made ploughs along with skh hauard newlands begg sellers Cruikshank and others that have all gone to the wall
nobody has the time to spend showing a keen armature there skills in any particulate field now :farmer:
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There was no slight on your performance intended - sorry if it came over that way. I had visions of my attempts at ploughing as a youngster trying to a rough old patch covered in nettles into a perfect match plot - and the resulting disappointment and frustration. I have been turning the sod for over 35 years now and am still learning every time I go out - I hope it proves as rewarding for you :thumbsup:
No offence taken at all. If I wasn't prepared - indeed wanted- criticism and advice i wouldn't be here :)
The chances of me having another 35 years is a touch optimistic..I'd be clearing a space for the royal telegram around then...
It's going to take a year or two to understand this land and the area compared to other parts of the country I've lived in. If Id wanted an easy way out then I'd have got Glynn (up the road) to zip over the field for me..a few stripes with an 8 or 10 furrow job and his experience would have sorted it Certainly would have been cheaper than buying the kit and maintaining it.
I'm taking a trial and error approach to a lot of things here... germinating and planting repeat crop samples to see what does best when..follow-ons if the first attempt fails 'cos the ground isn't right yet etc - or the whole lots gets munched by marauders....
Next year will be better prepared and 2-4 years time will see the fruits I've planted coming in. Some of my plans are so long term that i'll be gone before they mature but if no-one tried it then future generations wouldn't have the results either.