The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: robert waddell on April 23, 2012, 02:15:23 pm
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OK here goes rosemary and Dan will be running for cover with this one with Dans finger hovering over the cancel button
the question about CKC i went on the site mentioned all very informative until i came to the endorsement bit
is there actually people that will pay hundreds of pounds for pedigree dogs and commite themselves to not breeding from that dog cattle that is the whole point of buying pedigree is to breed that particular line same as pigs sheep goats and horses cats work the same way as pigs you can get them birth notified but it is the breeder that must register them you can still breed them but they will never be classed as pedigree without parting with more money over the original selling price
but dogs are different here is your pedigree dog sign here you cant breed ever from it nice doing business the seller of down the road singing and dancing like morrcume and wise just what is the point of having that pedigree dog then or am i missing something or should this be enacted in parliament and wheeled out across Britain this would get rid of all the cats dogs pigs and horses that are abandoned or no longer wanted or aw that looks cute and we could do this and get thousands from sgum :farmer:
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The first Gordon Setter that we bought was pedigree and had a breeding endorsement. I know it seems strange especially to "stock people" :farmer: :farmer: but I am quite happy with that. I wanted that breed and there aren't non-pedigree breeders of Gordon setters, and had no intention of breeding myself then. The breeders had put this on so that their puppies weren't bought by "puppy farmers". They wanted their pups to go to proper family homes :) They did say though that as we were "nice sensible people" they might lift the endorsement if we asked. We haven't bred from her and she's now 8, and have bought another 2 Gordons after her. I never think of making money from my dogs because I go to work to earn money, dogs are just my guilty pleasure :-) (because I keep wanting more). Hope this goes some way to explaining why I did it Robert? Can't speak for anyone else though :dog:
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I have bred 3 litters in the last 12 years. These have been to give me a dog to work/ sport train. I have endorsed the registrations. This because I have been careful with the necessary health checks & I do not want unhealthy pups produced from my puppies. If the relevant tests are done & the dog is healthy I will remove the endorsement at no cost. So my reasoning is to stop uneducated people producing unhealthy dogs.
Rose
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OK here goes rosemary and Dan will be running for cover with this one with Dans finger hovering over the cancel button
the question about CKC i went on the site mentioned all very informative until i came to the endorsement bit
is there actually people that will pay hundreds of pounds for pedigree dogs and commite themselves to not breeding from that dog cattle that is the whole point of buying pedigree is to breed that particular line same as pigs sheep goats and horses cats work the same way as pigs you can get them birth notified but it is the breeder that must register them you can still breed them but they will never be classed as pedigree without parting with more money over the original selling price
but dogs are different here is your pedigree dog sign here you cant breed ever from it nice doing business the seller of down the road singing and dancing like morrcume and wise just what is the point of having that pedigree dog then or am i missing something or should this be enacted in parliament and wheeled out across Britain this would get rid of all the cats dogs pigs and horses that are abandoned or no longer wanted or aw that looks cute and we could do this and get thousands from sgum :farmer:
Yes, I ALWAYS endorse my pups! I ALWAYS have a waiting list and I ALWAYS get full price for them. Endorsing means that owners will hesitate before breeding a pup too young, or indiscriminately, or to an inappropriate stud or bitch. It's not infallible but it works most of the time - if a dog is endorsed it's progeny can't be registered with the Kennel Club, nor future generations, but some people don't care about that and go ahead anyway, but at least it keeps it in check. And I have the same health ideals as Rose
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Any reputable breeder will put an endorsement on their pupppies papers. This does not mean that people cannot breed from their dogs, only that the pups will not be recognised by the Kennel Club. This would, in theory, discourage people breeding for the wrong reasons,i.e. for pure profit, but in fact a non-registered pup will sell for the same price as a registered one ::)
If the breeder is certain that the dog will be bred for the right reasons, i.e. to enhance or improve that breed or because the person wants a pup to show then the breeder will, no doubt, lift the endorsement.
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IMHO the kennel club and breeders have done more harm to dogs than enough.
Short nosed dogs that can't breath because they've been bred with such short noses, and hip problems seem to be bred into all sorts of breeds now. Think German Shepherd, bred for a particular stance that caused problems. The Golden Cocker Spaniel has problems with schizophrenia which have ruined what was a lovely family pet popular with many.
Chocolate Labradors were very popular at one time and have a reputation for being thick as two short planks, I'm told this is due to breeders producing Chocolate colour rather than breeding for intelligence to do the job they were made for, purely because they could make money out of a dog of a particular colour.
Breeders are also keen to offload bitches that have had their quota of pups and are no good for making further money.
Breeders are known for breeding my type of dog, shooting dogs for the fact that they have FTC champions in them, this doesn't always signify that they are a good working dog. Just that they can perform a particular task in quick time.
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A lot of these points are being or have been remedied thank goodness. The KC now have a list of recommended health tests for most breeds, and most responsible breeders will do these tests on their breeding stock. The breeds with exaggerations have been caused by the breeders themselves trying to outdo each other, not by the Kennel Club - all the KC does is print a breed standard which doesn't change much over the years. The breeders do the damage and the KC gets the blame. But it is trying to redress the balance. All best of breed winners at shows in these breeds are having to undergo an independent vet health test.
Cocker Rage Syndrome is now also under control, I was unfortunate enough to have one which was destroyed at 18 months after attacking me, but that was in 1984 and it is very rare now, it was also seen in solid blacks as well as reds and goldens. As for Chocolate labs I think they are common as muck these days. Whether they are actually less intelligent or just perceived so by reputation, I don't know.
in fact a non-registered pup will sell for the same price as a registered one . Not in my breed - they are being sold down South for half the price of a registered well bred Brittany. But then they cannot be shown or trialled and are unsuitable as pets unless they get a lot of exercise. Those are usually the ones coming on rescue.
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Shep if demand for a specific breed is high and breeding low the price goes up and naturally you will get speculators (puppy farmers) but breeders could be regarded as puppy farmers as well even if they do all the checks before breeding and you the new owner has to Carry out more tests then the pup you are sold is not fit for purpose if it fails these tests i still think these breeders are ring fencing there investment or stopping others getting on the gravy train
the same argument can apply to robate 55 reply what is the difference betwean you and the uneducated people producing unhealthy pups
doganjo is there not another group of people that are dishing out pedigrees as well as the KC
Sylvia i am with moleskins on breeders interference with bringing out particular traits to the detriment of the breed this also applies to other animal breeds the interference list is endless
now CKC from the website that doganjo highlighted on there faults is in 95% of CKC brain to big for there skull
i will bet that remaining 5% are not the breeding nucleus that these ring fenced breeders are breeding from :farmer:
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I bought my pedigree dog knowing that I wouldnt breed from him but chose that breed because I knew from breed characteristics that I would probably end up with a lively, friendly dog that would be playful with my children. I did consider a rescue dog but felt it to be more risky in the sense that I have young children and the temperament would be less certain. Surely it is only the same buying a pedigree dog as a pedigree rabbit, cat or most other creatures. You look at the breed and choose a breed that fits in with your cicumstances. A dog doesnt have to be bred from to be worth the money you pay for it. Same with any other animal.
As regards to breeding, you can only do so much to ensure any animal goes to a good home. That is the same regardless of species. A neighbour will not part with/sell any poultry for that very reason (only to me ;D).
My father did breed a few litters when he worked, trained, field trialled and exhibited gundogs. I remember eye and hip testing but not up to date with new tests. He bred in order to keep pups to train and show and together with the sires owners had a list of people ready to take pups.
There are people that breed for the wrong reasons and that is obviously wrong but occurs with all breeds of animals not just dogs. Someone asked to use my dog recently to produce some cross bred puppies. The answer was a definite no, for lots of reasons which I did explain to the person.
Dont quite understand why everyone gets so heated in this section ??? Dont come here often .... perhaps Ive missed something ??? Please be gentle with me ;D ;D ;D
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Hi the difference is that I will health test & try not to produce unhealthy pups whereas I can't be sure new owner will health test unless I endorse the registration. I would not breed from a dog which failed any health checks, or health problems like my Andra (now neutered) despite her clear tests. I might add I have no unneutered females now as there is too much nastiness about what you breed.
Rose
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I dont remember any real nastiness when we worked/showed dogs but it was some years ago now.
Is it just within one breed?
Went to Crufts and all that and remember it all being quite fun!!! Did think about showing my lad at one point ..... maybe its a good job I didnt.
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Nastiness just local running down of my dogs & putting people off them. Then advising buying off local non testing 'breeder' who is dodgy - both with what he does to his dogs & stalking people! My old bitch blamed nastily for stud dog not mating her. Not sure how anybody believed she threw a stud dog twice her weight on the floor!
Rose
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doganjo is there not another group of people that are dishing out pedigrees as well as the KC
Well there are the bloodhound groups and the collie ones I guess. Don't know of any others.
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Down here there is something called the Dog Lovers Club who issue pedigrees. Pups advertised as DLC registered. They will 'produce' pedigrees for you I think, some with different breeds on it!! They are useful to puppy farmers as it looks as if the puppies are registered somewhere.
Rose
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Is this endorsing just a way of operating a 'closed shop' ?
Unless you're in the 'club' you find it hard to breed and sell a pup.
Does this help to give a person a healthy dog from good stock ?
I doubt it on my experience.
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No it isn't. If the criteria laid down at the time of selling a pup are fulfilled then the endorsement may be lifted. I lift them when asked, (and I make it very clear at the time the pup goes away that I will do so), if the pup has reached two years of age, has been x-rayed for HD and is below or not much above the breed average (the only required health check for our breed), is given a vet health check up, and is of sound temperament - which it should be from my lines, but I always make sure. I prefer to recommend a stud, but it is their dog so I cannot force the owner to take that recommendation.
Endorsement is a method of taking care of a breed's and an individual dog's future.
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Oh ...... I think my dog has an endorsement paper or whatever the term is.
I know that his breeder said that if I ever wanted to breed from him, it would be lifted once eyes and hips were checked. I cant see that it is a problem. If I had wanted to breed from him I would assume that those checks were essential anyway. Not only for the health of the breed but because anyone choosing to buy a pup and paying hundreds of pounds would expect the checks to have been carried out.
I dont think the breeder was trying to monopolise breeding in anyway but she did care about the breed and the pups she sold. She only had an occasional litter and is still in touch with me now. All the dogs she sold get birthday and christmas cards and I know that she has taken back one dog that she was concerned about and helped others by boarding them in her own home when their owners had difficulties(house flooded). That is a big responsibility. To me she was a good breeder. ;D
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1) If I had wanted to breed from him I would assume that those checks were essential anyway. Not only for the health of the breed but because anyone choosing to buy a pup and paying hundreds of pounds would expect the checks to have been carried out.
2) She only had an occasional litter
1) so why would you need to have an endorsement, it wouldn't change what you did.
2) not a 'breeder' by my standards, my problem is with people who breed dogs in poor conditions, offload the redundant dogs / bitches, carry out an op. on a pups hernia with cotton buds and needle and thread, and breed in faults for whatever reason. Etc etc.
This forum is littered (no pun intended) with breeders of pigs, sheep, chickens, goats, goodness knows what. Most of whom don't have clue about what they're doing, yet when it comes to dogs ...............
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Oh ...... I think my dog has an endorsement paper or whatever the term is.
I know that his breeder said that if I ever wanted to breed from him, it would be lifted once eyes and hips were checked. I cant see that it is a problem. If I had wanted to breed from him I would assume that those checks were essential anyway. Not only for the health of the breed but because anyone choosing to buy a pup and paying hundreds of pounds would expect the checks to have been carried out.
I dont think the breeder was trying to monopolise breeding in anyway but she did care about the breed and the pups she sold. She only had an occasional litter and is still in touch with me now. All the dogs she sold get birthday and christmas cards and I know that she has taken back one dog that she was concerned about and helped others by boarding them in her own home when their owners had difficulties(house flooded). That is a big responsibility. To me she was a good breeder. ;D
He he - I'm a softy too then - mine get birthday cards too - and a big goody bag when they leave. A piece of Mum's bed, a toy, a lead, a collar, a chew, and some of the food they are used to. Fortunately I haven't ever had any returned in the last 30 years, but I have kennels in my garage for visitors (some folk ask me to look after their pups/dogs overnight rather than put them in a strange kennel) and just in case I ever get any back to re-home, and space in the house too if need be. I wouldn't breed if I wasn't able to do this.
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moleskins - no the endorsement wouldnt change what I did. I had a dog with an inherited eye condition and so would test for the well being of breed and any pups produced. so endorsement not needed but also not a worry.
Maybe endorsements encourage people to consider more before breeding (if they wish to register) ?
Are you against endorsements?
I think she would class herself as a responsible breeder. I suppose you are refering more to puppy farms/irresponsible people breeding mainly/solely for cash.
Not sure what you mean by your reference to people on here breeding other animals but not having a clue. I suppose we all have to start somewhere. I am breeding sheep for the first time and yes there are gaps in my knowledge that I am deperate to fill. But as my sheep mentor says, he is still learning now.
This is not my usual place to look and read, though I do keep and love dogs. Have found people answering my questions, worries and concerns in the sheepy section to be really supportive and the details they go into are brilliant. Learning so much by reading answers to others questions too.
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There is a big difference in breeding pedigree dogs and cats and breeding pedigree sheep, pigs and cattle in that, if you have an animal not up to scratch( by that I mean having a deformity that could be hereditary) you can take it to the butcher and eat it! With cats and dogs you must keep them or find them a secure and stable home.
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Not sure what you mean by your reference to people on here breeding other animals but not having a clue. I suppose we all have to start somewhere. I am breeding sheep for the first time and yes there are gaps in my knowledge that I am deperate to fill. But as my sheep mentor says, he is still learning now.
Just that, we are mostly on here because we have animals of some sort and we're all learning and asking for advice, yet when it comes to dogs if you ask advice suddenly everyones up in arms and out with flaming torches and pitchforks screaming that you shouldn't breed from your dog.
The sheep side of things is full of nice little comments to people who've lost lambs, sometimes because they've made a mistake. Lost 2 myself because I wasn't there when they were born.
Swap that for someone saying they lost a litter of pups because they left the bitch out in the rain when she was having them and see how many nice little comments come back to you. Double standards ??
The video admired by doganjo of the labs retrieving in the sea to me shows owners being bl**dy stupid.
To say it doesn't matter what we breed with sheep, if we screw up we can eat them, goes over my head.
To insist that every dog needs a home doesn't add up to me, my brothers got a Cocker that's blind that doesn't make sense either, the pup should have been pts.
That's me on this
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Okay moleskins, you bet me too it. Couldnt understand what was being said or hinted at. Sorry, I hadnt read past threads on here but just dipped in as it were. Had just looked down at recent past posts and realised ( I can be a bit slow!!!) and was about to post back to say that my comments werent meant to offend. I couldnt figure out what the discussion was getting at and hadnt followed what was going on in the dog section on a daily basis or anything so was trying to make sense of it.
Yes, one would wish all animals regardless of species to get good, forever homes and for breeders to ensure they bred healthy, well balanced animals and gave good advice and care afterwards as needed.
Yes, you do have the option of the butcher with stock animals but ewes are sometimes sold on to inexperienced people (like me) so in part there is still an element of responsibility there, in my opinion, because their welfare is as important as a dogs. I have found breeding of sheep a huge responsibility, even though my rams will go to the butcher.
Gosh! I will make a hasty retreat too, moleskins, back to the sheepie section. :wave:
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yes moleskins that was the point of me posting the poultry section is the same as you have described i know somebody that will not post because he does not do double standards it is good practical advice from a lifetimes involvement in poultry the pig section is similar breeders of pedigree pigs fair enough a rare line yes breed from that but to have pedigree registered that do not conform to the basics of that breed
now to me the dog breeding world are breeding a whole load of problems eyes hips liver brains/skull and it is alright for a select few to breed dogs that should never be in pup in the first place
now i have collies and breed them to the same standards as i did with cattle sheep and pigs and when i started out with dogs to get my bitch lined with a good dog for agility was £450 plus the pick of the litter i used the same selection process as with all my animals to get a good male dog :farmer:
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Oh the mighty kennel club, that organisation that major sponsors run a mile from, the reason so many dogs have inherent problems , that elitist little club that is full of people who know what is best for the breeds, I don't think so.
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I have recently purchased a Irish Setter puppy ;D from a very reputable breeder. He has endorsements on his pedigree i.e. his youngstock can't be registered and also he can't be exported and a new owner registered. This is to protect the puppy from breeding to early and of course me selling him abroad for a profit to an owner the breeder may not have been happy with. I was happy with the restrictions as they can be lifted if I ask (but I have no intention of breeding from him). I chose a pedigree dog as I know the breed characteristics due to having several other Irish setters and felt he would fit into our life style well. A lot of my puppies litter mates have gone to show homes but the breeder was just as happy mine was to be a 'pet' and very unlikely to be shown. I chose to havea puppy rather than a rescue as we have another dog and wanted to ensure he accepted another dog to the house and this was more likely with a young dog who was no threat to him. I can honestly say I think the breeder was being responsible. I had my previous Irish Setter castrated and would not of bred from him as he suffered from boat and on further investigation a couple of his litter mates and his sire had suffered too. As there was a genetic predisposition to the condition (as well as other circumstances) it would seem inappropriate to breed from that dog although there were no endorsements on his pedigree.
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I think the vast majority of puppy buyers don't want to breed. They just want a healthy dog of their chosen breed. My gwp sired a couple of litters in his time, and both those were endorsed by the breeder, to be lifted if they felt happy with what was happening.
I actually bought an english setter last year with the provision that I allow his breeder to use him at stud so it goes both ways. I was more than happy to do this as the breeder is responsible and won't use him just because.
Helen
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How lovely to have such breaths of fresh air into this subject. Well done to both of you. I sometimes feel as if I am banging my head against a brick wall. You are right that most new owners don't have the immediate intention of breeding but believe me the pound signs start flashing in some of their eyes when they get a bit short of money and they find they have a breed that sells easily.
Good luck to both of you whatever you do with you dogs. I am off out to a community woodlands with mine - 200 acres of sheer bliss, deer fenced and gated - no training, just fun for them and a nice stroll for me with a friend on a sunny day . ;D
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I am off out to a community woodlands with mine - 200 acres of sheer bliss, deer fenced and gated - no training, just fun for them and a nice stroll for me with a friend on a sunny day . ;D
Ooh sounds lovely. Not jealous coz I'm stuck at work, honest... :-\
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Just back, the garden calls afer this cup of tea - lovely day with dogs doing their usual disappearing act going after rabbits and birds. We all ended up at the gate at the same time without whistling though so a good day ;D
Just planted some radish seeds, next to make a long raised bed for the onions which are in plugs at the moment. Raised beds are good - above dog wee height! ::) ;)
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You are right that most new owners don't have the immediate intention of breeding but believe me the pound signs start flashing in some of their eyes when they get a bit short of money and they find they have a breed that sells easily.
Or they find they have a good dog who shows good traits for the breed and they would no more have it castrated / spayed than they would their son or daughter.
They are asked by people if they intend to have the dog bred as it's so good. At this point they completely forget that breeders like to hog things all to themselves and that the Kennel Club like to control everything in dog breeding.
Lay off judging dog owners and I'll lay off with my low opinion of breeders, details of which I've mentioned before.
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You are right that most new owners don't have the immediate intention of breeding but believe me the pound signs start flashing in some of their eyes when they get a bit short of money and they find they have a breed that sells easily.
Or they find they have a good dog who shows good traits for the breed and they would no more have it castrated / spayed than they would their son or daughter.
They are asked by people if they intend to have the dog bred as it's so good. At this point they completely forget that breeders like to hog things all to themselves and that the Kennel Club like to control everything in dog breeding.
Lay off judging dog owners and I'll lay off with my low opinion of breeders, details of which I've mentioned before.
Feel free, MS - I ONLY breed when I want to have a puppy of my own and have a full list of people waiting. My dogs have proved themselves in show ring, work and health. I personally have nothing to prove., and if I feel that a lot of people breed for money I will say so whether you like it or not. It is my opinion. I have never been able to breed for money as I do things properly, but I do know some people who do it for cash - so perhaps my view is clouded by that. . - Health tests, registrations, well bred and lined studs, good food, correctly made whelping boxes, regular vet treatment, well bred dogs to start with - these all cost money and lesser dogs can be bred for profit but they just populate an already full market - just look at the dogs in council pounds that are only allowed a week to be rehomed or found a new home - they are then either killed or if they are lucky they are noticed by a rescue society. I don't object to anyone breeding at all if they do things right, but if they do they can't make money. You have your opinions, go ahead and promulgate the view that it is good that innocent dogs are killed so some human beings can profit from breeding more., That's fine with me, but it's not my idea of a fair world.
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I only have to look at my local gumtree adds to see people are breeding just for the money. so many cross bred puppies and a lot you would be taking a risk buying.
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the more that is posted the more i am convinced that breeders are ring fencing there gravy train if the produce has to be tested for health issues then there is an inherent fault in that breeding simple or is that just to simple
just where are you all you dog people coming from a seller sells a pup that you have to have health checked then they come back and use it for stud purposes so you buy a car and have an agreement that the previous owner can use it you sell your house and still want to stay in it occasionally what a screwed up world that would be
when we were looking for our initial dogs the amount of forking liars that are in this dog breeding they are born inside so why are they in a shed stinking of shite and piss used to children when the door opens they run for cover o yes they are wormed well that means they have a guy full of them and the price they obviously think the more they ask the better there stinking mangy worm infested pups are going to be and you are left with the behavioral and subsequent health issues yes you will need a lot of money to persevere with something that should never have been born never mind mated
when i used to get the yellow paper they used to advertise get a pedigree for your dog just how the hell are they going to do that that wife's Labrador nicked by farmer jocks collie then charge a fortune and have endorsements
Annie has these endorsements ever been challenged in court and has anybody ever got there money back plus costs for being sold a pup that had health issues :farmer:
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the more that is posted the more i am convinced that breeders are ring fencing there gravy train if the produce has to be tested for health issues then there is an inherent fault in that breeding simple or is that just to simple
just where are you all you dog people coming from a seller sells a pup that you have to have health checked then they come back and use it for stud purposes so you buy a car and have an agreement that the previous owner can use it you sell your house and still want to stay in it occasionally what a screwed up world that would be
when we were looking for our initial dogs the amount of forking liars that are in this dog breeding they are born inside so why are they in a shed stinking of shite and piss used to children when the door opens they run for cover o yes they are wormed well that means they have a guy full of them and the price they obviously think the more they ask the better there stinking mangy worm infested pups are going to be and you are left with the behavioral and subsequent health issues yes you will need a lot of money to persevere with something that should never have been born never mind mated
when i used to get the yellow paper they used to advertise get a pedigree for your dog just how the hell are they going to do that that wife's Labrador nicked by farmer jocks collie then charge a fortune and have endorsements
Annie has these endorsements ever been challenged in court and has anybody ever got there money back plus costs for being sold a pup that had health issues :farmer:
You have just described EXACTLY the people that i believe should be stopped, Robert. So I agree with you there. And in answer to the questions you ask about endorsements yes, and yes.
I'm not concerned if someone doesn't want to use endorsements -that's up to the person who breeds a litter - and anyone can do it - you could if your dogs are KC registered. And as for health tests - these diseases are genetic - if you have your dog tested then they can't pass it on to progeny. If every dog was health tested even then mother Nature could still throw a googly and a problem arise, but if you do breed from healthy parents you have a much better chance of the pups being health - no it isn't simple.
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I find this thread really interesting!
Robert and Doganjo - as two seemingly opposing camps would you agree with the following?
There are people breeding dogs who somehow should be prevented from breeding again because they breed too often, from inferior dogs and bitches and kept in appalling conditions?
There are too many puppies being born into the market, and so less appealing puppies or older dogs are being put down or thrown onto the streets and something should be done about it?
That these problems are being caused by "KC" breeders, "nonKC" breeders, "back street breeders" and puppy farms alike?
What can we do on a nationwide scale to improve this state of affairs?
Not asking so as to get you two reconciled (heaven forbid this forum would be boring then) but I have a keen interest. Just got back from a seminar at the weekend on just this issue and what may be the start of a movement to do something about it, so keen to have your thoughts - and every one else's of course :D
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reconciled Shep i never knew that Annie and myself were at odds it may come across as being at odds but then that is forums
just how do you overcome the problem by creating a cartel and price fixing well that is in operation just now at least to me and and my view of the kc breeders and endorsements
kc breeders want it all to themselves there are just as good dogs out there that has the ability but lack the training my dogs are not kc registered but are in my opinion just as good as the neighbours trained agility dogs only difference is mine are priced at what we would pay for a pup how many dog breeders can lay claim to breeding a mountain rescue dog my neighbour my have won at crufts but cant lay claim to a mountain rescue dog under there belt and any that have done agility are at silver and going for gold
it is no wonder that the country is awash with pups just look at the money to be made on the back of the kc just as an example Irish wolfhounds 18 in a litter £1800 each
sensibility has to play a big part in this :farmer:
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Does a pup have to pass any health or conformation test to receive its KC papers?
From what I gather, a KC registration only tells you that the parents are KC registered. It's a pointless bit of paper. So I don't "get" the distinction between "KC" breeders and "backyard" breeders - they can be the same person.
Compare to e.g. the ISDS where an eye test is part of the registration http://www.isds.org.uk/society/dog_registration/guide.html (http://www.isds.org.uk/society/dog_registration/guide.html)
I've no idea if other breed societies have their own registrations.
I tend to think in terms of:
"money" breeders - any dog, any bitch, KC papers look good in the classifieds
"working" breeders - have a good working spaniel, collie, terrier etc, breed for themselves, to replace dogs, for friends/acquaintances
"pedigree" breeders - breeding to pedigrees, possibly for showing, to get good examples of the breed etc.
The latter two categories would hopefully cover their own costs in breeding but it's not done for profit.
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As far as I know (and I stand corrected if I'm wrong) KC papers with a pup just confirm that parents are KC registered, ie are pure bred and there's no "other breeds" in there since that breed was first registered, with the exception of rare approved outcrosses.
I don't think it fair to blame the KC for the price of pups as they don't set the prices, breeders and buyers do this. Also with all the designer mongrels such as oodles doodles prockers and poos etc commanded even higher prices than a purebred pup which are obviously not KC registered this puts the blame and squarely on the breeders and the buyers!
There are many good breeders out there who breed from sound good examples of the breed, fit for the job they are meant to do. Some go down the KC route, some do not. If I were to buy another Gordon setter I would look for a KC breeder, however if looking for a sheepdog I would actively avoid a KC registered border collie because I wouldn't want any show lines! Or more likely look for a rescue :-)
But how can we stop the indiscriminate breeders such as the woman in our village who made her poor springer have 3 litters in 18 months!!! Just because it was easy income!
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But how can we stop the indiscriminate breeders such as the woman in our village who made her poor springer have 3 litters in 18 months!!! Just because it was easy income!
I don't know but that's what I'd want to do too.
The KC registration document will also show DNA results if they have been done, HD scores and I think eye test (not sure about that as my breed don't need those), in my breed they also show if it is a natural bobtail, if proof has been given of all of these. There is a section of the KC website where you can check any dog for the relevant health tests having been done. Just type in the dog's KC name - this is Freckles my older bitch - http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx (http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx)
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the KC will not register some breeds if they suffer from a genetic diseases such as CLAD in the Irish Setter. All KC registered breeders must also under take all the health tests applicable to the breed. There is still room for lots of improvement but those measures should certainly be encouraged surely?
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I may be wrong with this but I think most stud animal may it be dog, bull, ram or stallion have to be the best of their breed to make any offspring worth selling. Maybe if people were a bit more interested in who has kids the world would not be so full of crime.
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I may be wrong with this but I think most stud animal may it be dog, bull, ram or stallion have to be the best of their breed to make any offspring worth selling. Maybe if people were a bit more interested in who has kids the world would not be so full of crime.
Sorry Sabrina but I don't think that is entirely true. The responsible people will, certainly, but there are an awful lot of irresponsible ones. Many people with a bitch they want to have serviced for moneymaking reasons will just find the cheapest dog to use. There are websites where anyone can post a dog at stud, without needing any health checks or qualifications. Joe Public doesn't bother about quality - they want a puppy, they go and see puppies, they buy a puppy - puppies sell themselves because of the cuteness factor ;D
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you are so right. I recently wrote an article for an equine magazine about responsible breeding and the same principles should apply to all stock or pets. You ultimately should breed the best with the best to hopefully produce off spring which are fit for purpose and have the best possible chance of career longevity. Unfortuantely the same as with horses it is the dogs with behavioural or physical issues which often end up welfare cases. I could rant all day about the state of the equine breeding system in this countryand how people breed for all the wrong reasons. I am sure the same is true in the canine world, gosh I can just feel my blood boiling. >:(
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the same in the pig breeding world no thought to what they are producing they think that what they pay for weaners is to much so try and breed there own cant even give them away and wonder why no wonder chicken is dearer than pork :farmer:
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The thing that puzzles me is that in most of the farming and horticulture worlds a lot of effort is spent in trying to improve genetics while in the dog world the effort seems to be expended in trying to stay the same.
We've done a fair bit of socialising puppies for Hearing Dogs. Every one has been different, and most have been crosses. I'm guessing that they seek temperament as well as intelligence but they have gone down a very different path to the Guide Dogs for the Blind people
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You are right that most new owners don't have the immediate intention of breeding but believe me the pound signs start flashing in some of their eyes when they get a bit short of money and they find they have a breed that sells easily.
Or they find they have a good dog who shows good traits for the breed and they would no more have it castrated / spayed than they would their son or daughter.
They are asked by people if they intend to have the dog bred as it's so good. At this point they completely forget that breeders like to hog things all to themselves and that the Kennel Club like to control everything in dog breeding.
Lay off judging dog owners and I'll lay off with my low opinion of breeders, details of which I've mentioned before.
You have your opinions, go ahead and promulgate the view that it is good that innocent dogs are killed so some human beings can profit from breeding more., That's fine with me, but it's not my idea of a fair world.
In an earlier post you laid into anyone who breeds a litter of pups from their dog as a one off type of arrangement.
Here you are putting words into my mouth, I've never advocated breeding dogs for the sake of it or for profit.
I have said I'm in favour of breeding dogs from good animals who have good traits that we would want to encourage or retain in a breed. If that dog is owned by an individual not a 'breeder' so be it.
My brother as I've said has a blind dog, bred by a breeder, taken by him from a rescue centre if you want to snipe at someone have a go at that breeder and rescue centre. Don't have a go at a complete stranger whose dog you don't know.
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I was not talking about people that will breed anything but the ones who breed and show or work their dogs. I know the foke who just do it for the money don't care. I have just had my 2 Shetland Stallions vetted over the last few months. Its expensive, they had to be DNA and everything about their health and tempermeant checked. its something that no longer has to be done down to some EU rule but I decided to have them checked. I know of one Stallion that cannot be shown as its so nasty but it sires foal .His offspring may end up as kids ponies if they are lucky or some French mans dinner. Breeding kittens and puppies has become a way of boosting the family income I think.
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in the good old days there used to be a bull proving scheme all potential bulls had to pas it or it was curtains for them now it is just the sales at the market that judge them every one has a value on the hook and if they don't make that your breeding policy and stock-manship is crap plus you have lost a rake of money :farmer:
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[/quote]
MS - You have your opinions, go ahead and promulgate the view that it is good that innocent dogs are killed so some human beings can profit from breeding more., That's fine with me, but it's not my idea of a fair world.
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Just for clarity, I'd included quotes from this thread which I felt linked to the point I was making.
The above quote was however directly aimed at me and puts words into my mouth, it's not on for
Doganjo to say that it's my view on anything,
My view is that dogs should be bred from suitable animals, who owns them is irrelevant.
At the outset I asked for advice on breeding from my bitch, I was immediately jumped on.
The thread and some PM's have provided me with great enlightenment, but not on how to
breed dogs.
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It should not be acceptable for such discussions to become bad-tempered and insulting.
This is normally a friendly forum where differing opinions should be able to be expressed. No-one has a monopoly on the truth.
Dan?
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surely its better for a debate to become fiery on a safe forum? opinions will always differ, sometimes its good to get down to the bone.
for my 2penneth, i dont see much difference between unwanted dogs being pts and any other bred animal being pts, the only difference is we dont eat dog. ive always fancied trying a spaniel sandwich. (thats a joke...btw)
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Forgive me if this sounds bad, but as long as my a#$E points to the ground there will always be people who breed their dogs because they think it's a money spinner, regardless of whether or not a piece of paper exists saying they 'can't'. Especially the small handbag types, crossbred and unchecked and easier to sell than something big-at least that has been my observation. And as long as Joe Public is prepared to hand over the dosh for these animals, the problem will exist. Even well bred dogs who have come from parents who have had all the health checks can end up as a rescue (going through one at the moment with a litter brother to by boy) because buyers either cannot or will not understand that a small cute fluffy puppy does NOT always stay that way!
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rather the opposite another free thinker :farmer:
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for my 2penneth, i dont see much difference between unwanted dogs being pts and any other bred animal being pts...
because dogs are companions not "stock" and they:
they are our eyes if we are blind, our ears if we are deaf and assist with little jobs when we are not very mobile
they tell us if we have cancer or about to have a fit
they find us when we are lost, in an avalanche, and save us from drowning,
they fight our wars for us and lay down their lives for us
help us find prey where we cannot and when they have it in their mouths bing it back to us- even when they are hungry
they work alongside us with our sheep and cattle gathering and herding that 10 men could never do
they find our sheep when they are lost or in 6 feet of snow
they help us catch our criminals
they ARE our best friends
and no matter what we do to them they are still prepared to love us.
Don't get me wrong I agree if a dog has been baldy bred or badly treated so much that it can never safely live with humans then there is only one answer. But most of the hundreeds of thousands (no exageration) of healthy dogs pts each year in the UK are either perfectly nice pets or have nothing wrong with them that a bit of training and responsible dog ownership wouldn't put right. They aren't just as cute and fluffy as a puppy >:(
Forgive me if this sounds bad, but as long as my a#$E points to the ground there will always be people who breed their dogs because they think it's a money spinner, regardless of whether or not a piece of paper exists saying they 'can't'. Especially the small handbag types, crossbred and unchecked and easier to sell than something big-at least that has been my observation. And as long as Joe Public is prepared to hand over the dosh for these animals, the problem will exist. Even well bred dogs who have come from parents who have had all the health checks can end up as a rescue (going through one at the moment with a litter brother to by boy) because buyers either cannot or will not understand that a small cute fluffy puppy does NOT always stay that way!
Yes Joe Public needs educating !!! :thumbsup:
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I have stayed out if this for some time as my blood rises at some of what I have read on this topic so I can no longer trust myself to type rationally. But I agree so totally with what you have said Helen. Thank you for putting it so well, so succinctly.
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yes Joe public has got a lot to answer to if they see some brainless celebrity with a designer dog or micro pig they start salivating at the mouth and as the price goes up they get even more desperate to have the lattest animal craze and as long as there numties that are prepared to shell out hundreds of pounds and travel the length of the country to get them and there heart kicks in (o i just could not leave it there i travelled 300 miles i might as well buy one) you Will get breeders to produce the goods :farmer:
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Stupid people buying and venal people selling. Nothing changes then.
Did anyone hear the RSPCA have said there are 30,000 unwanted per rabbits - too expensive to keep for God's sake - so there's been a rush of re-homing places springing up. To me that's a lost opportunity for a big casserole but perhaps its my turn to get into trouble.
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:o Yes indeeeeeed small farmer, put my pet rabbit in a casserole - now youre starting another heated discussion. ;D
I agree that people need educating about breeding dogs and also other animals, rabbits being a good example. They often end up living in awful conditions. It applies to lots of species. I understand some people may value dogs more than other species, other people on here may not.
Maybe this thread should be titled .... Dog Breeding ...... It is not just true pedigree breeding that is a problem. I know someone using their bitch to produce cross bred pups. Yes, it is for money and they are selling .... £200 each.
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I imagine that the production of such things as the Labradoodle falls right outside any restrictions a breeder may seek to impose. Or is their a standard now?
We socialised one as a guide dog except that she was not a good learner and the house was knee-deep in the fur she shed continuously. The idea that they don't shed was demonstrably untrue in her case.
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It's not a case of having a standard. Labradoodles in this country have not yet bred true to type for seven generations that is the criteria required before the KC will register them and set down a standard. If you breed a labradoodle to a labradoodle you can get anything from a leggy Labrador to a chunky poodle, with short soft hair to curly long hair - and they needn't be hypo allergenic.
The Australian Labradoodle however, is registered in Oz and does breed true to type and you can bring them into the UK, there might even be breeders here - I saw one on Monday night. Just looked like a larger version of a Spanish Water Dog to me. Had a lovely temperament.
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I have seen a lovely Australian Labradoodle - but obtained at 8 weeks already speyed!!!!
Rose
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The Australian Labradoodle however, is registered in Oz and does breed true to type and you can bring them into the UK, there might even be breeders here - I saw one on Monday night. Just looked like a larger version of a Spanish Water Dog to me. Had a lovely temperament.
Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure that they aren't registered and have certainly never seen one in the show ring, although you do see quite a few around in other places! I have lost count of the number of times I have been asked if my Briards are Labradoodles :o :o!
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The Australian Labradoodle however, is registered in Oz and does breed true to type and you can bring them into the UK, there might even be breeders here - I saw one on Monday night. Just looked like a larger version of a Spanish Water Dog to me. Had a lovely temperament.
Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure that they aren't registered and have certainly never seen one in the show ring, although you do see quite a few around in other places! I have lost count of the number of times I have been asked if my Briards are Labradoodles :o :o!
I have never been to your country so I can only marvel at the vastness, I am only going on what a 'doodle breeder here told me. She wanted to buy a couple so she could breed type adn sell them as a pure breed. I'll bet you can imagine what I said. ;D I'm not going through that again!
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so not a lot of light at the end of the tunnel for every good breeder there is probably 12 or nearer 120 not so good ones i still think money is the driver with pedigree dog breeding and the endorsements i just hope that government intervention does not happen and end up with the fiasco that ensued with the ban on fox hunting
yes there are to many dogs being bread
yes they have health issues
yes the responsible breeders will limit there output but that just opens the floodgates for the breeders that are only in it for the pounds to expand even more
and any way who has the right to condemn somebody like myself that breeds dogs to the standards i think fit and proper in favour of somebody that that has them on a factory line on concrete and never near a family environment until little Johny or Katie proclaims i WANT that one :farmer:
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I have not been here for some time, but feel that I must respond to this thread, given that it was the information on our pet CKC spaniel, information given to Rosemary without realising it would become the subject of discussion on a public forum, which started this debate.
The gentleman from whom we bought our pup breeds pups from healthy, well-looked-after brood stock which have all had all the health checks necessary to ensure that they and their progeny have the best chance of living their lives free of the terrible conditions which afflict some individuals within the breed who have not had the benefits of such stringent testing before being utilised as breeding stock.
The breeder from whom we bought our pup was very clear with us, right from our first point of enquiry, that his brood stock were health-checked, and that he put breeding restrictions on his pups sold, although these may be lifted in the future, provided he was sure that the prospective breeders had their animal checked to the necessary standards. If the restriction were lifted, the breeder would be on hand to offer advice on pedigree lines/choice of stud dog, and other matters which may concern a prospective breeder of one of his pups.
Incidently, he also said he seldom sells pups to homes with children under the age of five, but, after meeting us as a family, agreed that we were suitable for one of his pups.
My wife did months of research on the breed, and was able to discuss at some length the merits of the gentleman's brood bitches and stud dog...a matter which he seemed to appreciate. He also appreciated the fact that my wife discussed many things concerning his dogs before she even asked the price of a pup.
I don't find anything wrong with a breeder of healthy quality stock, who has spent money and time getting his breeding right and wanting to ensure the future reputation of his stock and his good name, putting such restrictions on at the time of sale of his pups. I would if I were in his position.
As it happens, we have no intentions of breeding from our wee bitch, despite the fact that she is a lovely example of the breed and her sire is arguably the best in the uk. We paid quite a lot of money for her, but we got the best we could find and, chances are, she will live a long healthy life, due, in the main, to her breeder's vigilance and commitment.
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Thank you for that, exactly what I hope my puppy buyers would all say. :) :thumbsup:
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In reply to AengusOg
All of that would be fine were it not for the fact that leaving the breeding of dogs in the hands of 'breeders' and the kennel club has led to many of the health problems you have hopefully managed to avoid.
In addition by only having 'professional breeders' you create an elite who can dictate a market for animals and as Doganjo reminds us 'dogs should not be bred for money'.
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moleskins that is exactly why i started the discussion
aengusOg after i read your post i went back to the beginning then went through the dog postings goldcraig started the ckc post rosemary highlighted a breeder and i went on the breeders website and found out about the brains being to large for the skull
if you are happy with your dog and what you paid for it that is fine no problem enjoy your choice of dog they have a certain cuttsie factor just like kunnie pigs or any other animal that appeals to a certain few or many as the case may be just not for me
i have been in the same situation with pigs when the value asked was relevant to the vehicle i was driving i just walked away and still friends with that breeder
if my posting prevented even just one potential buyer from being shafted by these breeders then it has been of benefit initially it is my view then thrown open for others to add to it just like you have after all it is an open forum :farmer:
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In reply to AengusOg
All of that would be fine were it not for the fact that leaving the breeding of dogs in the hands of 'breeders' and the kennel club has led to many of the health problems you have hopefully managed to avoid.
In addition by only having 'professional breeders' you create an elite who can dictate a market for animals and as Doganjo reminds us 'dogs should not be bred for money'.
Oh no, you are at it again! Do please try to get rid of that huge chip. :) [size=78%] [/size]Many people who are are in it for money - I think I already mentioned one person I know who is about to take a third litter from a 5/6 year old bitch in 3 years who, prior to my helping, had no knowledge of even the mating process let alone the whelping and rearing. Most 'breeders' have a litter so they can keep a pup to carry on their lines. I agree there are some bad ones, but they are being reduced due to Kennel Club actions - the Assured Breeder Scheme being one.
Do stop banging on about it moleskins you are becoming boring. ::)
And as for you Robert, stick to pigs,and I'll see you in about a couple of hours ;) :innocent: :love:
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Annie there is similarity's with the dog breeders and the pig breeders not all are there to fleece the buyer just some and they get all the attention even the cat breeders can be a bit suspect with there operation with cages of cats in sheds see you soon ;) :farmer:
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I agree, Robert, not often that happens, eh? See you soon x
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You see Doganjo, there you go again, accusing someone you've never met of having a chip about something. If anything your attitude to dog breeding has hardened my view. I agree it must be getting boring to those following this thread, so as you're determined to have the last word go ahead but, you know and I know, there are countless breeders out there approved by the KC who are screwing up dog breeding.
Yet in the face of that you won't accept that it's right for someone who has a good dog to be able to have a litter of pups with it thereby populating the world with good dogs.
That is my preference, good dogs. Your preference can be KC approved ones, with all their problems, if you like, you'll never bully me into changing my view.
So, as I say, as you're so determined to, you can have the last word on it.
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You have me wrong too. I agree with you that there are some bad breeders out there, but you are wrong about them being the biggest ones, some of the bad breeders are those with only one bitch, some of the bad breeders may have 2, 3 or four bitches and breed every season, without proper health checks - those are the bad breeders. I also agree with you only good dogs should be bred from, proven good dogs. I also think that only HEALTHY dogs should be bred from. And that means having the tests recommended by the Kennel Club. I also think that dogs should not be bred for profit - as you have said. If you look after your bitch properly, and do all the health tests, feed both her and the pups properly then you will not make much money out of it - at best you will obtain forced saving.
I have no objection to anyone breeding under those terms - I have not bred a lot of litters in my time as a breeder but each one has been bred healthily, thoughtfully, with extreme care of my bitches and their pups, and my own stud dog, with thought to the pedigrees and how they relate to each other, and from PROVEN good dogs. Competition is the way to prove whether a dog is good - not the owners eyes. Any terrier or hound man will tell you that.
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aengusOg after i read your post i went back to the beginning then went through the dog postings goldcraig started the ckc post rosemary highlighted a breeder and i went on the breeders website and found out about the brains being to large for the skull
That's the breeder we bought our bitch from (I don't know if you got that ::)), and I found him to have a very responsible approach to his breeding. 'Brains being too large for the skull is precisely what he is trying to avoid and eliminate in his breeding by rigorously testing his brood stock and putting endorsements on his pups sold. I'd rather his information had not been included in this forum, but Rosemary enquired of us as to where we sourced our pup. We didn't realise that the information we gave would be put on this forum and become the spark for the diatribe which resulted.
if you are happy with your dog and what you paid for it that is fine no problem enjoy your choice of dog they have a certain cuttsie factor just like kunnie pigs or any other animal that appeals to a certain few or many as the case may be just not for me
We are very happy with our pup, thank you. You have no idea what we paid for her (unless that information has been divulged on my behalf as well), but we felt that is was fair money for the quality we sought. Having been involved with stock and horses for many years, I know what I like and what I'm prepared to pay. Having kept and trained gundogs, terriers, lurchers, collies, and pet dogs all my life, I can honestly say that our Cavalier King Charles Spaniel is one of the most intelligent, tractable, fun-loving, safe, and lovable dogs I have ever met. Not for macho men, perhaps, but...
i have been in the same situation with pigs when the value asked was relevant to the vehicle i was driving
What an unfortunate position to find yourself in. I have not experienced that, so cannot comment further on that subject.
if my posting prevented even just one potential buyer from being shafted by these breeders then it has been of benefit initially it is my view then thrown open for others to add to it just like you have after all it is an open forum :farmer:
I have never found your ramblings to be that interesting. I doubt you'll have influenced the commited seekers of well-bred dogs.
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angusog from your ramblings i did understand that was were you had purchased your dog
you may not have found my posting to be that interesting but you have read them ;)
i read the vast majority of postings and just because some are deemed uninteresting by a minority that does not excuse the likes of yourself to post your views on any particular poster
no mention of you or your dog other than Rosemary's post has been made until you came in shouldering your way to the front :farmer:
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You did start this thread with the stated intention of being contentious Robert, so that would the be the pot calling the kettle black then?
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yes SS anything to do with dogs is contentious that is why i stated that the administrators would be running for cover
no inference was made to a particular purchaser until aengusog came charging in claiming it was all about them
with breeding of any animal there are those that are trying to improve there breed and unfortunately far to many that are in it for the money churning out imperfect examples with health issues just for the cuttsie factor
that was the point of the original post :farmer:
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with breeding of any animal there are those that are trying to improve there breed and unfortunately far to many that are in it for the money churning out imperfect examples with health issues just for the cuttsie factor
Have to agree with this, Robert .......... again ::) and not just the cute factor either - the mundane and easy to sell factor - like labradors, spaniels, yorkies, cockapoos, doodles etc
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the question about CKC i went on the site mentioned all very informative until i came to the endorsement bit
Robert, can you please point me to the original thread about Cavaliers?
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This one...http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=23194.0 (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=23194.0)
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that does not excuse the likes of yourself to post your views on any particular poster
Yet it seems you can post your views on Mr Fitzsimmons with impunity?
no inference was made to a particular purchaser until aengusog came charging in claiming it was all about them
Read the original thread on CKC spaniels...the one which triggered your rant, remember?
no mention of you or your dog other than Rosemary's post has been made until you came in shouldering your way to the front
I didn't shoulder my way anywhere; I was put at 'the front' by Rosemary's references to the breeder from whom I bought my pup, coupled with the fact that my pup was named in reply #1 in the original thread. I was keen to make my views clear, as I certainly didn't want the breeder to get the impression that I subscibe to yours.
In case you still don't get it...Rosemary made an enquiry of us as to where we got our pup. She made no reference to the fact that she wanted the information to post on her forum, and we gave the information on the assumption that she was making a private enquiry. As it happened, the information was for 'Goldcraig', and would have been better PM'd to that person. However, my wife recently googled the name of the breeder of our pup and saw a reference to this forum. That was why I felt the need to clarify my position.
I doubt whether our future dealings with Mr Fitzsimmons will have been compromised, but we could have done without all this, frankly.
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I have read a few posts and seen this subject is "touchy" all I can say is people should never bring personal battles to a forum like this.
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This thread does not play well. It reflects no credit on the forum.
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Thankfully this thread (and a couple of similar ones) seems to be the odd one out in the general atmosphere of the forum. Must admit I'm hopeless at following muffled conversation, so generally puzzled here!
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aengusog who the France is Mr fitzimmones i have never mentioned him
there must be something lacking in your life to come on here and twist this to suit your self
and yorkshire lass i am puzzled as well :farmer:
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I smell manure stirring by some one :innocent:........ I keep reading a few threads and cannot make sense of them, I am sure some one puts things then takes them off again, just to cause trouble...some people had dull sad lives....well I am off to work ta tar!!
Just before I go, maybe AengusOg should try to remember who has told about Mr fitzimmones , thats an unusual name and now a lot of people on here will be looking it up, I never saw it mentioned either but I have suspicions that some one has put that name on this post but then taken it off.....I have met people like that before and while they are posting on here I will not bother....I think I will go some where else for info!!!
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I wish I never asked .......... >:(
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Oh Bill, that's a shame - the majority of forum users are lovely!! Please don't go because of one thread that turned.
There is an ignore option where you can ignore the posts of anyone you find offensive, I'm not sure how to implement it but I'm sure someone can tell us how to do it?
I am concerned though that if a breeder has been named in a negative way perhaps this thread should be edited as it seems unfair and could have legal implications?
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OK, now I'm getting a little fed up with this since I seem to have been in some way "implicated" in "wrongdoing". I therefore missed most of the football going back thought this thread and the original request by Goldcraig.
Goldcraig was seeking a CKC. A "friend" of mine (AengusOg) has a beautiful one and I knew she'd done loads of research to be sure that the puppy had no health problems. I asked her for the name of the breeder, which I then posted for Goldcraig's benefit and for anyone else seeking a CKC. I did not seek my friend's permission to post the information - perhaps I should have, since my failure to do so has clearly upset her. I did not mention my "friend's" name although I did include the name of the puppy, is saying how wonderful she was.
There was then the usual posts from other folk about making sure the pups are healthy etc etc. There is nothing controversial on the original thread, IMHO. If you google the name of the breeder's website / kennel name, which was in my post, the original TAS thread lists about seventh.
Robert then started THIS thread about endorsements. His interest in this seems to have been piqued by something on the website of the CKC breeder I told Goldcraig about. He, and others, have an unfavourable view of endorsements. Others view them as good things. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.
At no time did Robert link back to the original thread and no-one on this thread had named any particular breeder and a number of different breeds have been mentioned.
The only link to the original thread (which I couldn't even find) or mention of the CKC's breeder's name has been made by AengusOg. No-one had been derogatory of the breeder - some people have expressed reservations about the practice of endorsements; others have been supportive of the practice.
It's a real shame if the actions of a few spoil the forums for others. I find myself in the rather unusual position of defending Robert, who has spent more time in the "naughty chair" than anyone on TAS, but that's life.
This thread is now locked.