The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Introduce yourself => Topic started by: Bullbythehorns on April 18, 2012, 03:53:54 pm
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I'd love to take on the exciting challenge of becoming a smallholder. We, my wife and two young kids, live in Scotland and have only just started looking at possible future smallholdings. I'd really appreciate some feedback from those already much further down the path than me. My initial questions are all based around making sound financial decisions.
First of all I currently own a property in Glasgow which I would be selling in order to buy a suitable place. I anticipate receiving around 200K with a further 50K savings.
Assuming I was able to generate enough income from elsewhere for basic only living expenses what kind of money/savings should I be thinking about requiring to invest ( in addition to buying the property/land itself) in creating a smallholding that can actually provide a reasonable amount of sustenance and/or provide an income stream. I know that is a how long is a piece of string type question!
From my initial websearching there is place in Dumfries and Galloway; 17 acres of grazing land with a small vegetable garden and a farm buildings for guide price of 220K. Would that be a good starting point? Or should I start smaller and have a bigger nest egg?
I'm curious to what extent people have been able to make it to the situation where they are mostly self sufficient and/or are generating any kind of dependable income.
Another question we'd be hoping to create a small business using the smallholding as a base for starting a small (maybe food related) business. Would I better off concentrating on that aspect first of all?
I really love the idea of just jumping into this but I'm just wary that I will be taking on a range of entirely new challenges.
Would people advise a year of planning before taking this leap or as I am in position to go for it now or should I just learn 'on the job'?
I look forward to your collective wisdom!
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Hello, and welcome to TAS. :wave:
These are great questions, and the hardest to answer because every one of us has different personal circumstances, goals, tolerances to hardship ;) etc, but it's good you're asking them!
Start by thinking about what you actually want to spend your time focussing on, and what you enjoy doing - is it livestock, horticulture, fruit/veg production, or a mixture. If it's just you or you + 1 there's a limit to how much you can do, and specialising in / concentrating on one enterprise is probably the way to go - do all the other things as well, but decide where you're going to make your mark, assuming you're going to be selling something for income.
Bear in mind that not all grazing is equal. Those 17 acres in D&G might be fantastically fertile, and support a good flock of sheep, herd of cattle or other livestock, year on year. Or it might be an inch of stony topsoil on top of bedrock. So it's essential you make the right investment in land - you need to be working with the land's natural state, not against it.
This should be interesting reading for you, the Small is Successful project which is looking at income from small acreages: http://www.ecologicalland.coop/projects-small-successful (http://www.ecologicalland.coop/projects-small-successful)
Download the PDF here, and read the case studies: http://www.ecologicalland.coop/sites/ecologicalland.coop/files/Small_is_Successful.pdf (http://www.ecologicalland.coop/sites/ecologicalland.coop/files/Small_is_Successful.pdf)
We're on 12 acres and just entering our third year here. We've invested a lot of capital and time into the smallholding, and are starting to see the returns - egg sales, meat sales, a new orchard planted, and lots of ideas.
Good luck in whatever you decide, and look forward to hearing more about it. :thumbsup:
Dan
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Hi, I would get some experience in livestock and land management while you are looking, are there smallholders courses by you? It has taken us 9 yrs to get to the point we are at now which is self sufficient in most things including fuel. One person will need to work especially if you are going into this with a mortgage, and self sufficiency does not mean all free, food bills, vet bills , household bills etc still need to be paid. If you sell a lot of produce in summer the rest of the year will eat your profits so dont rely on making money from smallholding. Smallholding is a lifestyle change , very few can make a profit and live on that profit. A great boon is a trade, a great bartering tool. I f you get a registered croft there may be grants available but we dont claim a penny and they keep changing so you had better check on those at the time. Also one of the most important things could you eat or take to slaughter your own stock that you have bred? could you kill a chicken? a hard bridge to cross when it comes to it.Whatever you decide, take it steady,Shetlanders have seen so many folk come and 'do it all ' and fail by being too enthusiastic and then go back home again.I f you take it steady and do each job well first time you will build up to a full running smallholding in no time , instead of playing catchup, mending and finishing jobs the whole time. The very best of luck on your new adventure, we have done it now and got where we are happy to be but I still get jealous of the excitement folk have of setting out.
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Hi and welcome from another newbie. I'm in D&G if you need any help or advice on potential places. It all depends on what you want from a smallholding. For that price, if I'm honest, it sounds like it'll need some work to get on its feet, but again it depends where it is and what your plans are.
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Hello, and welcome from Durham
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Thanks for the welcome and appreciate those links. Some great case studies there and especially good to see some realistic figures included. Lots of hard work fpr sure and the rewards are unlikely to be primarily monetary! Still great to hear about viable efforts and those in the process of creating them.
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If you want to come this far north , look at Brattahlid on the Tait and Peterson website. Ready made..Been for sale for a long time now so they may accapt an offer.
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Interesting looking place thanks for sharing. Looks like any goldfish in that pond though might end up as an exotic foreign snack for that otter...
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Just had look at Brattahild Hermit, if only OH could get a job in Shetland I would move in a shot. Would not be able to afford that lovely croft but something smaller. Would re-comend Shetland to anyone who was looking for a better way of life.
Welcome to the forum Bullbythehorns :wave:
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Ha Ha , yes you have to watch the pesky otters, they are our foxes. A friend of mine thought a heron was taking her goldfish until she saw an otter having a good chomp on one! When are you up next Sabrina?
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No plans to come up this year as yet but maybe my mother will get home sick again. She so misses Shetland and at 81 her friends there are slowly passing away. One of my Stallions will up for the summer.
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Hi and welcome from Northants,we wish you well :wave:
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:wave: Hi and welcome from soggy Shropshire. I'm looking forward to hearing how your dream progresses. Good luck.
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Hi Hermit. My wife and I are very taken with the property you pointed us towards in Shetland. We are actually discussing taking a trip up there to get a feel for the island itself as well as checking out Brattahlid in more detail. Beautiful place.
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Welcome ,
lots of sensible questions Animals / Smallholdings are money pits to start off with, you will never have exactly what you have in your mind to start off with so then it will cost you to strive to have what you want whether its an Orchard / Bees / Sheep / polytunnel etc they all cost. There are various ways of starting if you are cautious and not in a rush then scan the local adds / eBay / gumtree etc and try and pick up what you need at bargain prices or Free on occasion. You can go to auctions. Instead of buying your Orchard from the reputable garden website you can buy bare rooted trees out of Lidls in Feb for £4 a time instead of £20 takes a little longer for establishment but more affordable on a big scale. Be miserable its great
Animals potentially need expensive vet medicine / treatment on occasion and if you have no or little experience then you are more likely to use a vet more often - If you can find a ( physical) mentor or assist somewhere similar to what your looking to establish then then that would help.
Although i have mentioned bargains always be wary of bargain animals - there will be a true stories, some one having a change in circumstance etc but there is those that will burden you with something that's ill doing / not right also.
As previously suggested, i don't know your circumstance, but i think reality dictates that you need at least one wage if not two to live on at least for the first 5 - 10 years to get things established ( unless you can find an ongoing concern with things ready to crop / slaughter / other produce to give income). This unfortunately then takes time away from getting things established.
Other options are to find a place with a tourist interest, an annex / cottage you could rent out to tourists. A shed that could be easily (and probably expensively) converted or extra rooms for B&B
Assess the potential for other sources of income or reducing out goings - even renewables - wind / water power ( needs initial cash investment).
Also remember thing are seasonal ( especially in Scotland). If you had no money would you fancy a winter of eating Kale and turnips!. - personally i feed them to sheep and eat them ;)
I assume you still have a property to sell, i would start with that then you now exactly what you have to play with and you are also a buyer with a little power. Its nice to shop online and take note of whats available at what price -also you can see what has been sitting on the market
We had two house to sell managed that then got a rental, bought a plot and converted a barn with an acre then bought another 5 acres with the building vat refund etc. Whole process took 3 years, so i wouldn't wait too long if it's what you want to do. My BH tells me to add "remember it will cost more than you think"
As for generating a dependable income, I'm not entirely sure anyone on here does - other will have outside incomes - even writing books / articles for specialist magazines / running courses etc to assist with finances - but you really need to have some experiences to be able to do this.
If anyone has managed to make a dependable income from small holding i think we would all be interested on how they did / do it. ( almost new thread time)!!
Good luck
OH forgot about authorities make sure you read the rules and regs for selling what you are going to produce and can comply with them without spending a fortune
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Glad you like it. If you come to Shetland pm me and I will give you a tour of my little spot to show you what I have done. Nothing fancy up here but more than folk think can be grown. An idea for an income at Brattahlid would be a campsite, we get loads of campers( tents and caravans are on the increase) and I dont think there is one at all in that area of Shetland.
If you do decide to come and visit us a thing to check out would be prices, animal feed, diesel etc and distances to travel to get them. A lot of things on Shetland are bought via the internet as it can be easier to pay post than diesel costs! There is a shop at vidlin with diesel and a well used community hall that has farmers markets and craft fairs. Shetland is a stunning place but a massive windfarm is going to be built , I dont think it will be visible much from tucked away Brattahlid though . Brattahlid can make its own hay , a massive boost as hay is pot luck up here and straw cannot be found some years. I make my own and bed my animals on it!
Shetland is posher than a lot of folk realise there is a lot of money up here and jobs are available of all kinds. Lerwick has basic shops but if you want a spree Aberdeen is an overnight ferry away , a day shopping and back the next night. For an islander I think it is about £40.00 return with no cabin, just recliner chair in the sleep room. I dont bother , I like the simple life. Good luck whatever you decide.
There is always next year Sabrina!
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I have been following this thread with interest and I have found the replies very thoughtful and reflecting peoples experiences.
One thing no-one has touched on is your children. You will still have to spend a lot of time rearing them and particularly as they grow they may love or hate where you end up. You will need to think about schooling, both primary and secondary, and getting them to school. Once they become teenagers their surroundings will be influential on their futures - this can be in either direction, for good or bad. Being in a very rural area could hold them back from what they want to do with their lives, or they could share your dream and a smallholding could be everything they want. There's no telling, but they need to come into your equations.
Our own experiences lead me to mention health - if your whole life depends on your being fit, you can come acropper if you are hit by a major illness - and when it happens to both of you it can mean the end of your dreams. In our case we have adapted, and our smallholding has adapted with us, but when you are starting out it is as well to check that there is flexibilty in where you choose to settle.
In our case, when we bought our smallholding nearly 17 years ago, we bought the smallholding before we had sold our house, which was quite a risk, but we didn't want to miss the smallholding and we were fairly sure the house would sell quickly - it did, within a week, which was great, but it was a risk and we could have ended up with bridging loans and even more stress.
You have the opportunity to choose carefully where to go, and there seem to be plenty of potential smallholdings out there so you can be picky. My main advice would be to know just what you are seeing when you look at the land - dig holes and assess the soil carefully. The house and buildings can be changed but you are stuck with the land, and where it is.
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What Fleecewife says about looking at education is true, we found small schools useless . My daughter was at a large school in England with three teachers per class . She is very smart and they kept her occupied and learning whilst able to bring the less smart children on. In a small school she was bored off her head as she was being taught with children a few years younger and had to do the same work. She went from years ahead to stagnant . She forged ahead again with top marks straight across the board in the larger secondary. So dont think small schools are always good.
Health is a good point as well to go into.
Most folk that want to buy up here rent first or have a few holidays at all times of year. We were lucky enough to own this house and our England one so we hopped between the two for a bit before coming here permanently . You must study Shetland first and all its good and bad points or indeed wherever you go . Property up here is cheap but folk spend there profits and cant afford to move back so beware of that trap.
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Some excellent food for thought here. The camping site idea strikes a chord, Hermit, thanks for that. Something to consider when I check out Brattahild.
Education is a very important factor for me. It was actually a key factor in returning to the UK after 12 years away in Hong Kong and the Philippines.
My brother lives in a rural area and I'm very impressed by the social life and sports opportunities his kids have in their local community. I'm hoping Shetland will tick all those boxes for me.
Do let me know if there are any other opportunities that are worth checking out during what would probably be around a three day trip up.