The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: holz306 on April 08, 2012, 10:10:50 pm
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hi :wave:
I'm looking to get a couple of weaners, i fancy either GOS x Tamworths or pure Kune Kunes unless anyone has other suggestions? I'm wondering if anyone has any advice for the new pig keeper, or tips. I know i have to register as a pig keeper prior to getting them but is there other paperwork other than movement forms that i need to be aware of? Any advice on general care would be well recieved too
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big difference betwean traditional pigs and kunnies you have to be registered with e aml prior to collecting them
i think trading standards have to be informed to check your premises and where you store there food ts used to deal with the paper work not now :farmer:
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You'll need a holding no. first if you don't have one, this tells the authorities you're keeping a farmed animal.
Then you'll need a herd no. for your pigs.
Finally moves are now electronic. In E&W you'll need to register with the e-aml2 system, in Scotland with Scot-eid
You'll also need to keep a movement register that must be updated within 36 hours of a move, and a medical records book to show what medicines (if any) have been given to your pigs.
South of the border, you do not need to specifically tell trading standrads, but as Robert says you should store your feed away from possible contamination such not bext to pesticides, and keep stored food rodent proof.
As a pig keeper ypu'll also come under a myriad of other rules and regulations, such as the Water Regulations 1999, governing how you connect your pig's water to the water system and notification therefof and if making a profit these can include silly things such as doing an annual ladder inspection report! However don't panic, everyone in every walk of life breaks a mass of minor regulations everyday without being aware of it, and if you are sensible then you should be ok.
On breed go for what you like the look of, everyone has their favorites.
As for general care - get a good book [advert warning] such as ours, or go on a course to get a real feel for how to set up and care for your pigs [advert warning off].
Pigs are really fun to keep, so enjoy your new venture
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Holz,
I'm not sure where you are but for Wales, Carmarthenshire at least, I found out last week that they won't give you a pig herd number until 1-2 weeks before you are actually due to get them.
CPH you can get no problem.
Sally
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Ditto what everyone else says ;)
I think that Kunekune's do best when they have plenty of space and grass (certainly no less than half an acre) the pork is fantastic and the pigs are easy to keep and manage. But Tammies are excellent too :thumbsup: The pig forum has loads of info as does the main TAS page and the Scottish Pig Keepers Association website ;)
Good luck & keep us posted :thumbsup:
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hi bionic after your advice last week about pigs iphoned carmarthen and i have now got my pig/herd number to go with cph,my pigs are coming in may. what is the e-aml2 ? do i need this to buy my weaners , they will be going to slaughter once fat enough
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Rockstar,
I don't yet have any pigs but I think the e-aml2 is the electronic movements form. If I understand it correctly this will be initiated by the seller.
I think the e-aml2 needs to be completed when the weaners are moved to your land and again when they go to slaughter.
I am sure someone who can advise further will be along shortly.
Sally
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thanks bionic. i see you are looking for some weaners, the lady im having mine off is nr brecon they are gos,
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Thanks guys, this is all great advice!! I'm in North west scotland, in the remote highlands, so unless i travel quite big distances, finding a specific breed may be difficult, but i'm certainly searching!! I have my CPH number, so i now have to get a herd number for them (prior to buying them?) and register with the e-aml thing....why do i need to tell trading standards? I was trying to read up on the rules on the scottish governments site, but it all seems a bit confusing for a novice so your help is much appreciated. Do your pigs have ear tags or tattoos, or slap mark - that bit confused me a little as i assume they only need one identifier? but someone told me the slaughter house won't take them without the slapmark = is this correct?
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the other thing i was hoping someone could do is give me a rough guide as to how much you think it costs to feed mr pig from weaning to slaughter - i know they need 1lb of feed a day per month etc....but how would you say that equates into ££ - obviously i understand different feeds cost different amounts etc, i just want a rough guide (to prove to my OH that it won't break the bank ::) )
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Rockstar - you are correct that the seller now initiates an electronic movement.
Holz, as you are in Scotland then you will use the quite simple Scot-eid rather than the e-aml2 that is for England & Wales (E&W).
As far as I am aware you don't need to tell TS in Scotland, but Robert may know better as he raised this, you definately don't need to for E&W.
You can move live pigs under 1 year old on a "temporary mark" usually a stock paint mark, and typically most people will sell them this way. Some breeders will tag weaners, and this used to be fine for Scotland. However they have now harmonised with the rest of the UK who from 2007 had different rules to Scotland, and now these are unified technically they need your herdmark on them when they go to slaughter, so having a tag with the breeders herdmark on them doesn't help you.
To go to slaughter you either need one eartag with your herd no. or two slapmarks - one on each shoulder. However some abattoirs insist on slapmarks, some are happy with either, if you come back to the forum with your nearest abattoir, a forum member may be able to help you. Otherwise before you buy tagging or slapmarking equipment, you'll need to check. Tattoos can be used, and are used for some breeds to ensure that they are pedigree. They are not used for slaughter as most if not all abattoirs will not accept them as they need to start handing and cleaning pigs ears to see the number, which obviously they are not keen to do.
On feeding costs etc. we have worked examples in our book that show costs. Someone on here might have costings they are happy to share.
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just talking to a new pig keeper today and yes trading standards were involved with him
but he was starting from scratch
also they have changed the paper copy and probably the puter one as well to include the cph of birth of the pig
this is in Scotland :farmer:
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guys....someone very close to home got in touch today to say they have 2 Kunekune x Tamworth/wild boar.......i don't want to rush but at the same time i don't want to miss out, and these piglets are ready now. I emailed about getting a herd number earlier today so hope to get a response tomorrow, if not i will phone the office. Could i tag them (assuming they're not already tagged) with my herd number although i haven't bred them? My nearest slaughterhouse is in Dingwall, inverness-shire..
p.s - whats your books title, or can you pm me the details about it?
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i can appreciate your logistic problems these piglets could appear to fit what you want it really is up to you whether you buy them or wait for something else
with tagging them if the breeder has tagged them they are supposed to be re tagged by every owner that buys them until there death and it is illegal to remove tags already fitted yet pedigree pigs retain the tag allocated by the breeder pigs are the only animal that has this weired anomaly all others retain there original identity :farmer:
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so if he's not tagged them, and i do, then i take them to slaughter then that should satisfy them? no tattoo or slap required?
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no not as simple as that find out what the slaughter house prefer tags metal or plastic the plastic ones do survive the scalding process the slap mark identifies the half carcasses so there is no confusion over who's is who this does happen before the Scot eid came into force pigs up to a year old could move on a paint mark even to slaughter and to slaughter as well :farmer:
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2 Kunekune x Tamworth/wild boar.....
wow, was that a deliberate cross?
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Holz :wave:
I back HappyHippy re the Kune Kune, but them I would ;D
Don't worry about a herd No. until after you get them - all you need is your CPH number at the moment, as you can't move them onto your land without it (& the seller shouldn't let you have them without it either, as ScotEID will alert all & sundry VERY quickly).
Just check that any CPH No. you have includes LAND - this may seem a bit daft, but don't assume a CPH No. automatically means you can keep stock. Recently 1 of my Kune buyers didn't realise that their CPH No. was LANDLESS :o The easiest way is to register with ScotEID first, before looking for piglets, it will immediately tell you if your holding is ok.
Not heard of a KK cross Tammy, but if you get the best of each breed you could be on to some lovely pork that's not too expensive to rear :yum: - just watch out for the Tammy specialist escape skills!
:love: :pig: :love:
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pretty sure it was a deliberate cross. the sow is the Kune Kune, shame they're not pure because i'd definately have said yes already. Thanks guys you've all been so helpfull so far - i'm used to horses (and a few sheep in the past) so its a learning curve when it comes to the rules and regs of piggys!
Pretty sure the holding is land - its part of a farm, bit silly if its not, but it is a new CPH so i'd better check! i'll try to register with Scoteid tomorrow. and get the herd number sorted....i'm ridiculously excited about it.
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it is not so much the Tammie escape artist i would be more concerned with the aggression of the wild boar cornered or in earshot of a pig squealing they will smash down rickety fences and barricades to get and protect that distressed pig all you end up with is a mongrel of a cross with no specific advantage :farmer:
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oh dear, that doesn't sound good.....there's a lot of wild boar crosses around here, i don't know why?
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they are introduced to the forrests and large estates and like yourself there is nothing else available but you have to search for what you want there are far to many dolly mixture crosses and trading standards should get involved with the crap passed of as a specific breed oh it so infuriates me the the duff information and the praying on the new owners that goes on in the pig world :farmer:
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the two pigs that are left are males - is there a downside to keeping males rather than females, will they fight as they get bigger or likely to be more aggressive etc?
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Holz :wave:
If they have not been castrated, be VERY CAREFUL !!!
KK's are sexually mature from 5 months - though the breed is very docile, you can often get problems keeping boars together, even litter brothers, especially if there are any females within sniffing distance.
Although I've not got got any experience with Tammies, from what Robert is saying the wild boar mix could prove a dangerous combination.
:love: :pig: :love:
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If the piglets are moving farm to farm and they are under a year old they don't need to have any tags - a temporary paint mark is adequate (and you can fill that in on the ScotEID form no problems - they have a space for you to note it down :)) I'd suggest it would be better for them not to be tagged to be honest, it makes the slaughter end easier - with only one tag ID to worry about ;)
The males won't fight as they are brothers (well, they'll fight but only in 'play') and the advantage of keeping uncastrated boars is that you HAVE to send them to slaughter, you wouldn't want to keep them as pets as they get too big and too boisterous. (You would get ovely attached to a pure Kunekune as they're just like big soft dogs ;))
My Kunekune cross OSB's were great pigs and I was surprised that the Kune in them didn't seem to slow the growth. If these wee guys are close, the breeder is helpful and you're keen to get started then I'd say go for it ;) You can always try something else the next time ;D
HTH
Karen
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Just read this thread and feel exhausted by all the regs needed to keep a soddin pig or two in the UK.
here in France I answered an advert and got 2 ( ear tagged) pigs for 45 Euros each - as I don't breed i have no need to tell anyone - We had a pig stye but we had to buy an electric fence - I did buy in some pig food but the pigs had a bit of a field and were fed by all of my neighbours ( orchards and large veg gardens, acorns, walnuts and chestnuts). I reckon I spent about £40-£50 on feed over 10 months with most expenditure post autumn when I cooked up spuds,marrow, pumpkins with a compliment flour and pig nuts for tea. We killed the pigs on site and I butchered them - we did our own bacon, hams, salami and sausages.
I only mention the above because it strikes me just how much red tape smallholders in the UK have to deal with and how challenging it must be. I do not think it is rocket science to look after a couple of healthy pigs and give them a good life and we were very lucky to have experienced neighbours to do a professional home kill.
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i am, glad you posted MAK we are in the EU what we have to adhere to in the UK the rest of Europe should be doing similar but it appears not to be :farmer:
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One EU a myriad of different country interpretations!
Yes France has decided that the rules only apply to breeders, not to people just raising pigs.
Holz, as others have said I would be vary of anything wild boar cross as a first time pig, maybe when you've got more experience. Have PM'd you on the book, but it is available on our website at the end of this post.
To re-iterate what HH and others have said, but them on a paintmark. You don't have to ID them unitl you take them to slaughter, so no hurry about tags/slapmarks, but as Robert wisely says check what you local abattoir wants.
Robert - on holding of birth as you point out thisd has been added - this came in for Scotland under PRIMO 2011. It is actually a requirement under a EU directive from 2007 that says that the paperwork should carry holding of birth for paintmark moves. Totally pointless rule, as either that is the holding they were moving from so is already on the form 999% of cases), or another in which case why do you need to know that? As it is a directive rather than a regulation, each country is allowed to decide how to implement the rule. England & Wales just added it to the paper form, relying on people filling it in. Scotland ignored it (wisely). However given that a new PRIMO regulation was coming out, Scotland added it to their regulation, but E&W did not, so whilst it is a bit on the form, in E&W it has no sanction.
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Ok - does anyone have any idea where i can get nice female weaners in North Scotland - i think you're right to not go for 2 males with Wild boar in them as first pigs.....so, I like rare breeds, british breeds....and Kunekunes - but i wonder are they too small to make it worth while raising them for the freezer? The only pig people around here have wild boar x's. i suspect this has something to do with it being a relatively remote area, and everyones been sharing boars over the past few years!! so, all suggestions welcome? what would be your one reccommended first pig, bearing in mind my location in the west highlands of scotland, where it tends to be wet and windy even in the summer! (although plenty of dry housing awaits them!!)
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it may well surprise you just what is available in a bigger radius unfortunately there seams a hesitancy for Scots to travel any great distance to further the gene pool in any great numbers
British lops do very well in Scotland and may well be worth your time and effort bringing them north and are an ideal starter pig with better results weight wise and time wise than kunnies future breeding has to be considered if you get pedigree whatever you decide Lillian can organise transport to Aberdeen which gives you a bigger catchment area :farmer:
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I found two main things when I started keeping pigs, they are brainy and can escape very easily under stock fencing and they are quite expensive to feed. Consider 2 strands of good electric fencing and try to find suppliers of alternative foods such as waste bread processors, brewers, cider makers etc. They are great fun to keep and the pork will be the best you've ever tasted! Oh and invest in an extra freezer!
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I found two main things when I started keeping pigs, they are brainy and can escape very easily under stock fencing and they are quite expensive to feed..................they are great fun to keep and the pork will be the best you've ever tasted! Oh and invest in an extra freezer!
Couldn't have put it better myself.
My guideline:
Stock fencing will not hold a pig in. Apart from a wall, corrugated iron attached FIRMLY to cemented in posts is the fence to go for. Pig Arks will maybe last a season before they need repair/replacing.
Pigs like 'entertainment' (snackit balls, bales of hay without the twine etc).
Never put other stock in with pigs.
I've tried various breeds/crosses, some taste better than others, and some are 'easier' than others. My next pigs will definitely be GOS as never had that breed and (at the risk of sounding girly) they are soooooo cute!
Just read this thread and feel exhausted by all the regs needed to keep a soddin pig or two in the UK.
here in France I answered an advert and got 2 ( ear tagged) pigs for 45 Euros each - as I don't breed i have no need to tell anyone................
.............I only mention the above because it strikes me just how much red tape smallholders in the UK have to deal with and how challenging it must be.
Naughty naughty!! You HAVE to be registered regardless of whether you breed.
If anything, the 'red tape' is tougher in France than in the UK - plus there is the language to also deal with.
The seller of the ear tagged pigs will have sent off their paperwork after they sold the pigs, and that paper trail leads to you....
....and if you had them during the month of January you were also required to have the necessary vacs done!
A home kill is allowed. It's the keeping them without a holding number that isn't.
Bonne Chance!!
:farmer: :pig:
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thanks for that Oh La La - we bought them from Brits and they say we do not have to register as we are keeping for our own consumption. The English people who breed a serious number of pigs and many other animals currently have our next 2. They say that they don' like putting ear tags in as they can harm the animal. They will ear tag when the animals are older or give us the tags before we pick them up.
Neither sellers asked our address or papers.
Think I better check up on this
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I know, it's tricky. I've been told all sorts in the past by sellers and they are adamant that they are right. Only last week I had to pull out the relevant docs to back myself up; then watch them cough and splutter, as there's no arguing with that.
L'identification des porcins est obligatoire dans toute l'Union Européenne.
I bumped into one seller a couple of months ago that caught me out a few years back when I wasn't up to par with it all. When I questioned him about the error in the sale he simply said "pass". ::)
Many breeders prefer not to tag or fill in the paperwork as they are taxed on every sale. But if the pigs aren't tagged they are selling illegally.
As a buyer you take your chance. Plenty of people do it that way. Plenty get away with it. And plenty get caught.
I've attached these links for you. The French is easy to follow, and might help explain a bit:
http://www.gds69.asso.fr/web/gds.nsf/e9c718688b57374cc1257223007ffc79/3160aa90401dbff1c1256d0a00581a1f (http://www.gds69.asso.fr/web/gds.nsf/e9c718688b57374cc1257223007ffc79/3160aa90401dbff1c1256d0a00581a1f)!OpenDocument
and
http://www.leporc.com/systeme-identification-tracabilite-porc.php (http://www.leporc.com/systeme-identification-tracabilite-porc.php)
:pig:
Apol if going off topic (or 'off country') a little guys. :-\
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Ohlala - thanks for posting that - very interesting - (and tested how much of my schoolboy french I could remember :)
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ohLaLa posted a link to French regs for keeping pigs and it had a comments section.
My french is not great but it had someone who tells of his friend who will get 100,000 Euros for NOT keeping pigs this year. The questioner asked how many and what kind of pigs he should NOT keep to earn 200,000 Euros.
He then went on to ask would the farmers who produce the millions of tonnes of grain, that will NOT be eaten by less pigs being kept be paid for NOT producing the grain too. Funny ;D
Pork is cheap and there is overproduction in the north ( Brittany mainly).
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QUOTE ]Stock fencing will not hold a pig in. Apart from a wall, corrugated iron attached FIRMLY to cemented in posts is the fence to go for. Pig Arks will maybe last a season before they need repair/replacing.
I don't know what you lot do to your pigs to make them want to get out. Mine are in pens of stock fence and a few sections of post and rail, no escapees. May be you should try putting the fence up properly. ::)
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I don't know what you lot do to your pigs to make them want to get out. Mine are in pens of stock fence and a few sections of post and rail, no escapees. May be you should try putting the fence up properly.
'Try putting the fence up properly'? Plenty of pigs get out. We can only advise on what works best for us.
Better to close the door BEFORE the pigs have bolted.
:pig:
PS: And in our case one of the main reasons for putting up a more solid structure is the WILD BOAR which is a regular visitor on the other side of the pig fence. That alone is valid enough reason to put up something more solid than post and rail or stock fencing (which incidentally, our first lot chewed through).
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I can only imagine that the stock fencing that has let pigs through was not properly erected. It's a waste of time and money unless it's put up properly. I work at a farm supplies store and I can testify to many examples of clueless individuals coming in to buy fencing materials who have no idea what they're doing. Most of them won't be told either.