The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Other => Topic started by: benkt on March 21, 2012, 10:52:49 pm
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We've just been given a lovely large rabbit hutch and I'm starting to think about getting self-sufficient in rabbit meat. I'm assuming I'd need to build another smaller hutch for a buck to live in but could keep a doe and her litter in the large new run. Is it ok to keep a single doe and buck or do I need more does and if so, do they need a run each? And where do I buy breeding stock from (we're in Cambs) as I can't find obvious lists of breeders online?
Thanks
Ben
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Not impressed. Why dont you give the hutch to a family that can look after a pair of rabbits and learn a bit more about nature through caring, rather than the completely pointless slaughter of a family pet. The idea that you would keep a buck in little hutch, seperate from the female, for its entire life does actually wind me up. You know nothing about the species so just leave well alone. It is people like you that make me wonder if we ought to have a licence system in order to keep any animal.
If you are that desperate to eat a rabbit, go out and shoot a wild one, there's enough of them.
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I would have thought that the responsible thing to do when considering starting to keep a new species of animal on a holding is to do nothing rash and ask experienced folk for advice, as I am doing. I really just wanted to get a feel for the number of separate enclosures etc. required for a small scale breeding program so I can assess whether or not its worthwhile us looking in to it further.
Are you suggesting that one hutch is sufficient for breeding, i.e. keeping buck doe and kids all in the same run, or that I should keep two or more bucks together, or some other arrangement entirely?
Thanks,
Ben
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I am not the right person to ask, I have too strong feelings on the subject. I won't eat dog, cat or rabbit as I class them all as pets. I have no problem with people shooting wild rabbits and eating them, that is up to them and in most cases the rabbits need shooting which is part and parcel of life in the countryside. Personally, I wouldn't eat a wild rabbit anymore than I would eat a feral cat or a dog.
I cannot class rabbits like chickens, they are just too emotional and intelligent and sociable and to me they are just not food, anymore than my cat is. Rabbits need lots and lots of room if you do care about their life - take chickens, I wont eat battery eggs or battery chickens. If you wanted to do it with any degree of ethics, the room you would need just does not justify the small amount of meat you would get. Incidentally, we don't buy pet food with rabbit meat in it either for the same reasons we won't buy battery eggs.
Thats just a personal choice. So many people get pet rabbits and fail to look after them, keep them in hutches they cannot even stand up in properly, dont let them out exercise...it is very sad, hence both our pet rabbits were rescue jobs. It is a sad fact that a free-range chicken bred for the table has a happier life than many 'pet' rabbits. I repeat rabbits are VERY emotional animals, it surprised me a lot and it is true. At present I am nursing our female rabbit and its touch and go whether she will lose her ear. If I go and sit with her for ten minutes and massage her gut which the penicillin is upsetting (kills the bacteria which they need to process food) and give her some love then she will try and eat, otherwise she wont. In the wild she would just die if on her own. Our male rabbit is going ballistic as we have had to seperate them with a grille as he is killing her with kindness by constantly tending her wound and re-infecting it. Yesterday he managed to scale the grille (which is so high that is impossible and when we came downstairs in the morning he was back in with her on her side of the cage, like some animal version of Houdini. He must have actually climbed the vertical grille with teeth and claws to get over and sit with her and when i went to stroke her he used his head to cover hers and was very reluctant to move. Very sweet.
I am not the right person to talk too about eating them I am afraid and the only breeds you could buy would all be bred as pets as far as I know, hence my rather forthright post first off. In all honesty, without emotion, if it was practical and worth it people would be doing it and they aint! Remember Houdini ;)
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Benkt, I'm sure I've seen ads in our local agri merchents from time to time from people selling table bunnies, may be worth looking there. I have no idea about the conditions they should be kept in, though I'd imagine there's no shortage of information. Keep us updated, as it's one of the things I've long considered.
Smalltime, the keeping of rabbits for the table is well founded, indeed that's why the little things were brought here in the 1st place and it long precedes the keeping of them as pets. Not sure the personal attack was warrented, I think the topic and the quesions are both valid and justifiable on a smallholding website.
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Hi benkt, you are doing the right thing by asking for info (I'm always asking about a certain subject and don't care how unknowledgable I might come across, better to ask and learn from the more experienced than flounder on and maybe get it wrong).
So, much to answer but:
Living Accommodation - Keep the buck living separate from the doe or she will be very fed up with all the 'attention', plus she will constantly be having kits. Also she needs a bit of peace for nesting. When you decide to mate them, take the doe to the buck - never the other way around. Leave her in overnight then pop her back in her own hutch.
How many - One of each sex is fine (unrelated). Two litters per year is the most I would be asking of a doe. If you want more get a 2nd doe, again keep her in her own separate housing.
Size of housing - as large as possible. With a cosy darkened area. Mine have housing of about 3ft deep x 10ft each.
External runs - I have a couple which I can move about on the grass. Never mix them in there - one at a time only with the possible exception of when you separate the females from the males of a litter after weaning.
Pop a pic up of your hutch and I'll give it the once over - only my opinion mind, but I've learnt from a good mentor.
Pic of the sort of thing I have. The 3 compartments are joined so each rabbit has a whole floor to itself.
I should add that I don't agree with the commercial cage type of rabbit housing.
If there's anything else I can help you with re this - ask away.
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if you do keep more than 1 doe, should they be togther or seperate?
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Smalltime, the keeping of rabbits for the table is well founded, indeed that's why the little things were brought here in the 1st place and it long precedes the keeping of them as pets. Not sure the personal attack was warrented, I think the topic and the quesions are both valid and justifiable on a smallholding website.
I know, that is fair comment. My partner does a bit of work rescuing rabbits and some of the conditions they are kept in are awful. It genuinely was not meant to be a personal attack on anyone as that would be both stupid and rude, apologies if what i wrote came out that way. I will ask my partner for you as she really does know her onions on this topic :)
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I wont comment on how to keep rabbits for meat consumption because I know nothing about it really. It has been covered in the not too distant past in Country Smallholder magazine. Sorry I cant remember which issue but someone else maybe able to tell you.Think you can order back copies.
Could not rear them and eat myself as I have a pet house rabbit and can in part understand Smalltimes response. If you eat meat there are always dilemmas about what is and what is not acceptable.All animals are intelligent and responsive if we get to know them well enough and spend time with them .... including chickens and I eat those!
Smalltime ... I hope your rabbit is soon well. My bunny loves to be stroked and tickled and licks/ grooms me back. Also purrs .....not many people know what I mean but I guess you will!
They are often very neglected as pets. Have heard people say that they dont need much room because they just sit all day........how can they do anything else in tiny hutches? My lad jumps on the windowsills and chairs and loves to kick his legs. Comes to his name when called!
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I have emailed her and this was her response...
There are too many breeders out there already, this is where the thousands of rescues get most of their rabbits – who have usually been treated extremely badly…
How many rabbits is he planning to consume because even one doe and one buck will produce more rabbits than one family could eat.
I cant give advice because I believe it is fundamentally wrong. As you said there are plenty of wild rabbits, and a million breeders out there with more rabbits than they could ever possibly need.
x
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If you wish to breed rabbits you will need a minimum of 3 hutches/runs/enclosures. One large one that I would use to let the doe kindle in and then when you wean the litter you would leave the litter in it and take the doe away (less stressful for the litter). So that then leaves you with one for the buck and one for the doe.
If you are intending just to breed for meat then I would suggest looking for meat type New Zealand White or Californian rabbits (frequently crosses are used). When I used to get a smallholding magazine there was often a advert for them, but you might have to travel. If you were interested in particular breeds then contact the British Rabbit Council who can put you in touch with clubs for the different breeds or possibly put you in touch with breeders.
Our own rabbits are multi-purpose, in that some are shown and then they are usually regarded more as pets, but we do eat some as well. Overall we regard them as small livestock, and yes there are favourites but that's no different to the goats and other livestock we have kept. We keep rare breeds of rabbit and in the same way that rare breeds of larger livestock are best conserved by breeding them for their original purpose and generating demand for the product, the same is true for these rare breeds of rabbit.
If you keep the meat type or even the larger pure breeds then you will get 8 - 12 in a litter, probably more likely nearer 8. The meat type ones are usually ready to eat at about 12 weeks old and at that age they shouldn't need separating into bucks and does so could be run on in the one large enclosure. If you use some of the pure breeds they are slower growing and will probably need separating so you will then need another enclosure. I would estimate that one litter would generate 32-40 meals, which one family could easily eat - that's rabbit on the menu once a month, or twice a month if you have two litters a year. Rabbits are capable of breeding as soon as they litter but it's not normally recommended to let them breed that often.
Young rabbits are susceptible to gut upsets so feeding is very important especially ensuring sufficient fibre such as hay. If mother is fed greens then they can as well, and ensure consistent regular feeding.
Hope that is helpful to you benkt.
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I kept rabbits for meat many years ago, four does and a buck. They were all in separate hutches and runs but could all see each other. I took the does away as soon as the kittens were weaned , then separated doe and buck kits into two separate runs.
Smalltime, pigs make lovely pets as do chickens and goats. I have no worries eating any of the as long as I am contented they have had a happy enough life. If the killing of animals is abhorrent to you I would question if you are on the right forum?
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Please excuse another long post on this subject.
Some people take a stand against eating animals entirely; I can respect that. But most people (in the west at least) choose to eat animals. Of these though, most muddle through life consuming meat with no thought to the existence of the animal before it arrives shrink wrapped. Some laudable people want better than this for the animal; they care for its good provenance and will involving themselves in the animal's earing to ensure this. The return for their efforts is better quality food and less reliance on the corporate machine. We're on a smallholding website - I'm not saying anything controversial.
Nobody in their right mind enjoys the act of dispatching with a beast, or sending it off to be done, but I can well respect those who choose to do this in a sound manner, for the sound reasons described above. What I don't understand is someone who is prepared to cause the demise of certain types of animal yet cannot comprehend such an act with another, based upon such concepts as the animals' intelligence, appearance, cuteness, social status etc.
Smalltime, I understand your compassion for animals and if you were a non meat eater I would respect your view on not rearing rabbits for the table. That aside, your first post responding to Ben was rash, narrow minded and personal. You lumped him in with a stereotype when you know nothing about him. I have never met him either but at the very least please can we treat each other as individuals rather than casting our net across swathes of society?
Ben, good luck with your venture can you let us know how you get on please?
Olly
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I would echo the words of Olly. I used to be a lacto vegetarian when I was younger but then realised that in fact by eating dairy products and eggs I was still very much part of the demise of animals/farmed in ways I did not appove of/ bred to extremes for high productivity etc. Now we are on the way to providing eggs and meat for our family at least in part. We love all our animals and will say that I still find it difficult when it is time for them to go but I suppose like most on here find it good to know that they have led good lives and unless I become vegan I would otherwise eat animals that may not have been treated with respect and care.
I think Smalltime sees rabbits in the same way as cats and dogs. Would I eat my cat or dog or breed these animals to eat? No. What would I think of someone thinking to do so? The problem is that all species are intelligent, sociable and so on, albeit in different ways ........ unless you are vegan you are going to have to choose which ones you find it acceptable to farm and eat. As a family we eat chicken and eat our own cockerels .... but my daughter will not ...... she loves chickens with the same passion as smalltime obviously loves his rabbits ......to her it would be like eating Alf the dog. I dont force her to eat them because I could not eat Alf!!!! However she can now see that it is not possible for every cockerel born to live here happily ever after because they fight and damage hens.
Ahhh ....... life would be so much simpler if we didnt THINK and did just buy the meat in its film wrap !!!!!
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Good advice there from hopewell, and nicely put sylvia and olly.
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I have nothing against eating meat BUT
For me personally I wouldn't eat home reared rabbit because.....
The buck would have to be kept separately and having a bonded group of rabbits, I KNOW how much they need company of their own kind. Not just within sight, but snuggle up close mutual grooming company.
The doe would also usually be kept on her own apart from when kits are with her.
The minimum space for a pair of rabbits is a 6 foot hutch permanently attached to a 6 foot by 4 foot run.
Most meat producers do not provide this for their rabbits.
Other animals can be reared for meat whilst accommodating natural behaviour, this is generally not so for a rabbit.
Perhaps if you were to create a colony type free range unit where the bucks and does could live permanently then perhaps, but after all that is would just be easier to harvest wild rabbits.
The difference in Geoffrey rabbit's (freecycle bunny) behaviour since having been neutered and bonded is amazing.
If you do decide to go ahead (after all the above is only my opinion) please have a look at the 'A hutch is not enough' campaign by the RWA. Solitary confinement is possibly the worst a bunny can be asked to endure, millions do so every single day of their 8+ year lifespan.
If you work out a way, please do share it with the world!
edited to add, people nowadays wouldn't dream of keeping a single sheep or goat as it would pine and be miserable. We are just beginning to realise the same is true for our rabbits which are by nature probably even more sociable than sheep or goats
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It wasn't nicely put, it was 'rash, narrow minded and personal' from people who claim to care about animals and through their actions show blatant disregard for their well-being. If you bothered reading through all my posts and following the conversation through that might help, in some cases a little knowledge on the subject matter wouldn't go amiss either.
Keeping a rabbit in solitary confinement for its entire life is cruel, whichever and whatever way you choose to do it. Its one of the most sociable animals known to man. They used to say you could tell a lot about a person by looking at the way he/she treats their animals. Still true. It is after all, as has been pointed out, a smallholding forum where you would think most members do care about animals. ::) Now 'Ben' has the facts he can decide for himself if it is for him. Others can carry on caging rabbits in solitary for their own profit and self-interest, doubtless simultaneously advising others on animal welfare and making sure their immediate friends are aware of how 'organic' their livestyles are...there's a lot of those in Surrey...and elsewhere. ::)
Why dont we all pop off to Europe and get stuck into a horse burger? When in Rome and all that........No? Why ever not? Point being there are personal choices and there is the broader concensus in society of what is and what is not deemed acceptable. I am glad I live in country where animal welfare is highly valued by the majority.
Olly398 - Your veiled pretence of interest in how 'Ben' (note the use of first name) 'gets on' does little to disguise the fact that you have nothing to add of any relevance to this discussion. Try not to jump on the 'stereotypical automated response to sound reasonable and sensible and curry favour' posting bandwagon of internet trolls. Its very tiresome when trolls constantly try and hijack discussions.
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Smalltime, I eat meat. To do this an animal has to die. I choose to eat meat that I have reared, fed, loved and has had a quick and stress free death. I choose NOT to eat dogs, cats or horses but respect that other cultures do. It's not the killing and eating of these animals that particularly distresses me but the way they are kept, treated and killed. I never found that my rabbits were in any way unhappy with the way they were kept.
I can't think your attack on Ben or Olly(see, we use proper names here ::)) was in any way justified. They eat meat, Ben was asking which was the best way to keep rabbits, Olly was putting forward a case for responsible husbandry.
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Yes, it is a matter of choice and what is deemed acceptable by an individual and the society they live in. It is maybe easier to give some animals a good life before their time comes than it is others. At the end of the day, if you eat meat you are still taking a life. There is no way of getting around that unless you become a strict vegan. My sheep, I believe are sociable and intelligent, as are my chickens. Is my rabbit more so? I am not sure. Does one species deserve life and another not?
Maybe if we are going to eat rabbit we should shoot wild ones. Their numbers often need controlling and at least they have led natural lives.
There is an actual rabbit thread on here. Have not read all posts carefully but think it says that wild rabbits are so cheap to buy that it may not be worth rearing them anyway. Or is there some difference in taste or something? Dont eat rabbit so I dont know.
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There is an actual rabbit thread on here. Have not read all posts carefully but think it says that wild rabbits are so cheap to buy that it may not be worth rearing them anyway. Or is there some difference in taste or something? Dont eat rabbit so I dont know.
Yes they are different - wild rabbit has a stronger gamier flavour. I'd also expect to get more meat and less bone on a domestic rabbit.
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Perhaps if you were to create a colony type free range unit where the bucks and does could live permanently then perhaps, but after all that is would just be easier to harvest wild rabbits.
We have managed to keep a pair of sisters together in a very large hutch and let them litter together, so it is possible to manage them in a colony. It's not without potential issues as 2 does frequently fight, especially if they don't really have enough space. It does cause issues as to identifying which youngsters came from which doe, which can be important for ongoing breeding.
I wouldn't want to keep a buck permanently with does as they would be breeding far too often, although I do appreciate that rabbits are social animals. We do sometimes leave a doe with a buck for a 2 or 3 weeks. That way they both have company for a while but are separated before the doe kindles and so before she can be mated again.
I think that the way we keep animals is often a compromise or balance, even between different aspects of animal welfare. Eg Keeping a buck and doe together improves the social behavioural aspect of welfare (one of the 5 freedoms) but if allowed to mate immediately each time a doe litters then this will inevitably impact on both the health and nutrition aspects of their welfare (also part of the 5 freedoms).
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We did a cost benefit analysis and full business plan on keeping rabbits for meat having been a fan of consuming wild rabbit. We found that due to teh fact a butcher can import a rabbit from china for less than £1 and wild rabbit is more abundant. Not only will you save yourself a lot of money but also eat a better quality product if you get some wild rabbit. It will also help manage the wild population.
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Yep, we came to a similar conclusion - and given the pressures on housing at this time of year, the rabbit hutch is now full of chicks so any thoughts of rabbit breeding have gone on the back burner for now.
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We have just started keeping rabbits and have exactly the set up detailed by ohLaLa. We are using the concrete clapiers shown in her picture, and have built a large "mother to be " hutch. We also built a large run for the buck that we move about.
We took one doe to the buck for just an hour but then thought that she needed a rest - !!!.
We were given the buck by a neighbour and collected 2 does from a breeder but wire fencing is expensive here so we have made a fair investment so far.
Some good points about keeping rabbits for meat here so I will keep my eye on new posts that discuss just that. Our neighbours have all kept rabbits for food so we have plenty of advice on how to keep and cook them.
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Hope it all goes well for you mak. Your neighbours will be old hands and lots of knowledge to learn there (retain some, discard some, amend some).
We have more than one breeding doe, as our first wasn't particularly maternal (and hated going to the buck), plus, although they can 'breed like rabbits' I don't think it is fair to expect that of them so our girls have a maximum of two litters each per year.
We have a couple of the cage roulants, and that seems to be a good balance.
Our breeding does don't go 'in the pot'. They get retired to a maiden life and the buck gets a new girlfriend or two.........
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Can any of the above who have kept rabbits for meat share their preffered method of killing a table rabbit?
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I've never kept a rabbit for meat, but you can kill em either by stretching them or by a blow to the back of the head.
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A sharp blow to the back of the head was the way we did it, you have to hit hard though and get the skull, not the neck. As always, better to hit too hard than not hard enough.
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Thanks Sylvia - I will make it quick when the time comes.
I have just been in with the 10 kittens, mum and her sister. They now have a micro enclosure within the duck range in case the ducks get agressive to the kittens. Tonight the kittens made their first venture out of their "welsh dresser hutch". great to see the all playing with mum and aunt looking over them.
I really do not want to debate the issues of keeping rabbits for food on this smallholding site. Others have adressed the issue of choice and responsibility very well.
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Haven't looked at this thread for months - thanks for the updates all.
I'm off to troll a few other threads now :P ;D