The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: Tamsaddle on March 16, 2012, 12:18:04 pm
-
First I got the dates wrong having used a gestation calendar - I'd made no allowance for an extra day on leap year this year. So watching Rhubarb (Tamworth I bought at Stoneleigh) starting to nest at 1430 on Thursday when I was expecting a Saturday farrowing had me worried - but then realised Friday was now the correct due day. Nesting work went on actively to 1730, then checked all evening and 6 times in the night, but although she was very restless and kept getting up nothing happened. She ate all her breakfast at 0830 today. Friday, as we had only given her half rations the afternoon before, and then went straight back into the ark, very soon started having contractions and making an awful noise, and at 0930 and 0940 out came 2 lovely live piglets who are both suckling well, and believe it or not, fighting over the same teat when they are 14 available! Since then I have installed a chair outside (and out of view) and have been watching almost continuously, but despite what looked like another batch of contractions at 1030 and 1130, nothing else has arrived - neither piglets, nor afterbirth. My Carol Harris book says that if there is over an hour gap to start thinking about Oxytocin etc., which inevitably I haven't got, and don't want to bother the vet yet if there is nothing to worry about. Rhubarb herself is not looking or sounding stressed - lying on her side and grunting as they do when feeding. I just wish I could get straight on to the GOS forum to discover what Fowgill Farm's recent "epic labour" was about, but it is impossible to register immediately so I cannot find out. It is now 1215 and I am starting to get worried - am I panicking unnecessarily? Longing to hear from one of you who know about all this so much better than me. At least Rhubarb is producing lots of milk, unlike our Tamworth gilt with agalactia last year. Bye for now - back to my watching post - Tamsaddle
-
Tam
if nothings happened for an hour you need to go in and investigate if she's pushing and nothings coming out theres a blockage, likely an arse first piglet.
Wash you hand and arm in hot water (no soap) and dry with clean towel, then hold you hand like to make a frogs head with your thumb and fingers and gently insert into her swollen tush its very likely you'll feel a piglets feet or head so when she next pushes grasp the piglets and gently pull as she pushes ( if its breech you have to turn it) You will need to administer antibiotics when she's finished if you intervene just to be on the safe side. She will also feel pretty bruised so may need a painkiller but you'll be able to judge this.
Only use Oxytocin if the contractions stop but speak to your vet first.
HTH
mandy :pig:
ps have sent you a PM with my mobile number if you want to call.
-
Excellent advice Mandy :)
Hope all goes well....let us know how you get on.
-
Sadly, (or perhaps not), I think it is all over, as when I went out again she had expelled two, separate, but very small afterbirths - tiny compared with last year's ones, but then if you were growing only one piglet per horn I suppose one should expect a small sized afterbirth. They both look normal and intact and there are definitely no stillborn/dead piglets amongst the stuff. She meanwhile is now lying with a completely soft relaxed belly, no more quiverying or contractions or pushing, with the two little piggies sucking for all they are worth. Even though the two babies look fine and healthy, it is nevertheless extremely disappointing only getting two piglets - I have never heard of such a small litter ever, and of course makes the cost of this breeding pig astronomical if she cannot produce a reasonable sized litter. I must say I had been worried for days she would have a small or no litter - she just wasn't big enough or bagged up the same as the two pigs were last year. If pigs start off like this with a tiny first litter, is it likely to be the same in future litters? If so it will be completely uneconomic keeping her, which will be quite devastating as she is so beautiful. I cannot think of any reason why this should have happened - she appeared to have a normal pregnancy after her AI, has not been ill or ever off her feed - just very small in her belly towards the end of her time. All the same, I must try and remain positive and thankful that we at least have two live piglets and what looks like, now, a perfectly normal sow who does not need any intervention.
In the meantime, her Saddleback companion who is now due on Sunday instead of Monday, is looking absolutely enormous and has bagged up to almost ground level. If perchance she were to have a very large litter (she had 10 last year), more than could fit on the teats, is it ever possible to foster a few out to Rhubarb, the Tamworth, to make use of all her 14 milky teats?
Thank you so much Mandy for your rapid response - Tamsaddle
-
Here's my thoughts.....
Did you nudge at her belly before you AI'd her ? Boars do this to encourage the release of eggs before service ;)
Did you increase her feeding before and after AI ?
Small afterbirths I'm not sure on, but would have expected them to still be large (ish) - it might be a sign of an underlying problem (stress or infection of some point early in pregnancy maybe?) which would also account for a low litter.
You've got to take into account her condition too - too heavy or too skinny at service can affect litter size.
There could be loads of other contributing factors, but I certainly wouldn't write her off just yet - especially as she seems to be taking to motherhood ;) You can try fostering some of your other sow's piglets - but I'd only do that if the Saddleback was struggling. If she's doing fine with them - don't interfere ! Your Tamworth's milk supply will adjust to match what her piglets need. I'd let her raise these ones (you might even find you can wean them earlier if they do really well) and get her AI'd again next cycle after weaning (doing the belly nudge thing :thumbsup:) feed her well for a month and see how she goes next time.
Karen :wave:
-
as karen says you need to have a bit of foreplay also how many times did you ai her look back her dams breeding history also the boars as well you are not so bad you have 2 piglets some only have one and then go on to have very large litters just because there is afterbirth there she could have more with pigs there is something new or different all the time :farmer:
-
I think we did do belly nudging and vulva stroking when we AI'd these two, we usually do, but the year before didn't do anything like that and got 2 litters of 10 each on our first AI attempt. Possibly Rhubarb was just going off heat on the Tuesday the semen arrived - the first batch on that Tuesday morning she stood stock still, then was more restless during the Tuesday afternoon and following morning batch on Wednesday. She definitely did not come into heat 3 or 6 weeks later, so I thought all was fine. She had been having very strong, very visible heats in the weeks leading up to her AI. She was neither fat or skinny at service, but I hadn't discovered about feeding them up before and after service way back in November, so she was just having her normal 5.25 lbs nuts per day at the time.
Now 14.30 - all seems very peaceful in the ark and I am sure now nothing more will happen today. What a disappointing blow this has been - was so looking forward to having a minimum of 6. Will leave the decision as to whether to give her another chance until another day. Many thanks for all your replies - Tamsaddle
-
It's not a dissapointing day Tamsaddle - you've still got a healthy sow :pig: and two piglets :pig: :love: :pig: who are going to be absolute corkers :thumbsup: It could have been a lot worse :'(
Don't beat yourself up about it, these things happen sometimes :bouquet:
Karen :-*
-
i never knew about nudging or flushing either. its all a learning curve. im not one for waiting 12 hrs between each ai, if shes standing rock solid, do it more frequently when u think shes at the optimum.
bit disappointing but at least shes alive and healthy :wave: :wave:
-
Tamsaddle I've had 2 gilts that had 3 each with their first litter and went on to both have 10 the next time it is just one of those things. As the others have said you have a healthy sow and 2 healthy piglets that will grow very fast as they will have plenty of milk its not the end of the world. :wave:
-
Here is a pic of our two new babies on the first day of their lives - Tamsaddle
-
beautiful :thumbsup:
-
Dear little souls, be thankful for them :)
-
They definitely look very happy - that's a great picture
-
Congratulations!
I'd be very happy with that :thumbsup:
-
congrats. what r ur plans for the piglets?
-
You have all been amazing, and the kind things you have said have really cheered me up! Good to hear from BB that his gilts who had small litters to start with went on to have good sized ones later. Now for a good night's sleep for me! Will sex them tomorrow, then think about their future once they have got through the first few days & nights OK - Tamsaddle
-
Fantastic
-
Beautiful - and HUGE, aren't they?
My Meg (OSB) had 5 in her first litter (AI to the Saddleback, useless on the foreplay and only managed to get her to stand one time - but I was very happy to have 5 for her and my first litter! :D); they were a good size and grew like Topsy - they were ready to wean at 5 weeks (though I didn't), the boars were butched at 5 months, mine was just under 56kg deadweight and not fat at all. The gilts are still growing, I am hoping to keep them fairly lean and get lots more bacon :yum:
-
A perfect picture of piggy bliss ;D :thumbsup:
They do look like they're gonna get pretty big, pretty quick ;)
-
Sadly, (or perhaps not), I think it is all over, as when I went out again she had expelled two, separate, but very small afterbirths - tiny compared with last year's ones, but then if you were growing only one piglet per horn I suppose one should expect a small sized afterbirth. They both look normal and intact and there are definitely no stillborn/dead piglets amongst the stuff. She meanwhile is now lying with a completely soft relaxed belly, no more quiverying or contractions or pushing, with the two little piggies sucking for all they are worth. Even though the two babies look fine and healthy, it is nevertheless extremely disappointing only getting two piglets - I have never heard of such a small litter ever, and of course makes the cost of this breeding pig astronomical if she cannot produce a reasonable sized litter. I must say I had been worried for days she would have a small or no litter - she just wasn't big enough or bagged up the same as the two pigs were last year. If pigs start off like this with a tiny first litter, is it likely to be the same in future litters? If so it will be completely uneconomic keeping her, which will be quite devastating as she is so beautiful. I cannot think of any reason why this should have happened - she appeared to have a normal pregnancy after her AI, has not been ill or ever off her feed - just very small in her belly towards the end of her time. All the same, I must try and remain positive and thankful that we at least have two live piglets and what looks like, now, a perfectly normal sow who does not need any intervention.
In the meantime, her Saddleback companion who is now due on Sunday instead of Monday, is looking absolutely enormous and has bagged up to almost ground level. If perchance she were to have a very large litter (she had 10 last year), more than could fit on the teats, is it ever possible to foster a few out to Rhubarb, the Tamworth, to make use of all her 14 milky teats?
Thank you so much Mandy for your rapid response - Tamsaddle
small first litter sows should be culled. Also those that have a big litter and lay on them all should also be culled. Might seem hard but feed is not free and neither is your time. The space is better used by a sow that works that space by having a big litter and then bringing them through. That is they way I work and I don't farrow in crates....... but out in pallet huts with tin on the top and the sides.
-
Very interesting reply Blonde, but incredibly depressing as well. We won't decide immediately what to do with our Tamworth sow, but if we do give her a second chance and she produces a tiny litter again that will have to be it - as you say, feed is very pricey. I "cost" my piglets by dividing the sow's costs between the number of viable piglets - that is from the sow's birth or previous weaning date all the way through to the end of the current litter's weaning date - plus the piglet's own feed and other costs. With 10 or more piglets it works out fairly cheap per piglet, with only two piglets the costs are plain silly, and one could never make up the loss, either selling them as weaners, or for meat later on. Making a profit on the pigs is not primarily the reason I keep them - I just love having them, but nevertheless unless one is awash with spare cash, which I'm not, one cannot endlessly ignore the bitter reality of the bank balance. I have now checked the dam and grand dam's breeding histories, and all of them had 8-8, 9-9, or 10-10 litters, so it is presumably not a genetic problem. What a conundrum - Tamsaddle
-
No conundrum in my opinion, you have to give her the chance of another litter. As you AI'd her it may be your technique not her fault. ::)
-
So hope you're right BB. Next time I will try flushing with extra feed to encourage increased egg release, nudging, stimulation and everything else, or even better, see if I can find her a boar. That would overcome one other major problem - coming into heat on Sunday, Monday or Tuesday, but not being absolutely sure whether to order semen on Friday or wait till Monday. So much more convenient if they come on heat on Wednesdays to Saturdays - if only. Tamsaddle
-
blonde is an Australian commercial pig farmer they are enjoying good prices for pork just now so numbers really do matter
the vast majority of posters on here want to get away from the commercialism of pigs and one downside is small litters even if there actions are the reason for the small litters i would still give her another chance and i would say i am one of the most realistic pig people :farmer:
-
I agree with Robert - give her another go (and a boar would be the best choice) :thumbsup:
It's important to remember we're talking about traditional rare breed pigs here (compared to Blonde's commercial crosses, which are by their nature bred to produce high litter numbers which in turn grow very quick and lean) one of the reason these breeds are now rare is because they don't deliver the same numbers/profit margin as the commercial breeds and have fallen out of favour with almost all commercial porducers. They take longer to grow, are better suited to outdoor production methods (truth be told, I think they need the outdoor set up to flourish) and cost more to raise, but what you lose in quantity, you gain in quality.
Karen
-
One of our Mangalitzas only delivered one live piglet in her first litter (with sadly a couple of still born), her second litter four weeks ago produced eight (the largest quantity we've had from a Mangalitza) alive and kicking piglets who are all doing well.
Worth the second attempt I'd say.
Steph
-
They look gorgeous - plump and healthy - to me.
And what a breakfast table there is laid out for them :D How many teats does Rhubarb have?