The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: Rosemary on March 31, 2009, 08:53:28 pm
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We had thirteen chickens killed today, between 9am and 12 - seven Hubbards, five Black Rocks and one Light Sussex. We know who the culprit is but can't prove it - the evidence is circumstantial. Unless the owners of the dog responsible come clean, we (and the police) are stuck, and I doubt if they will.
Last time we actually caught him chasing the hens, and were assured that he would not be allowed out loose again - until then, he was allowed to "free-range". Today, he slipped his chain. And we have thirteen fewer birds than we had yesterday.
I wouldn't have minded the fox as much.
Fortunately, my cream crested legbars were shut in their ark and our new lamb was shut in a small pen with him mum otherwise they would have got it too. The Hubbards were in a run that was demolished. Only three of our 10 survived and one of those is injured.
I don't really want the dog destroyed but if that's the only sure way of stopping this happening again, then that would be my choice. I suppose I just have to put it behind me because nothing will happen, but it's very sad and very frustrating nonetheless.
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This is terrible.
What a waste and heart renching no doubt.
Sorry but you must get the dog destroyed. It may well cause further problems but its the only option if you have already given them a chance. Good luck.
You have one person on your side if you have to do what you dont really want to.
flipflopper
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thats really terrible. we really feel for you. I would have to say something to the owner of the dog but I can see your situation, but it could be worse next time.
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I am always amazed at how lax-ed some people are, we see people just letting there dog Pooh outside in the street and roam all over the place, people have no idea and just let their dogs loose. I am so sorry for you both, the remaining chickens must be a bit shell shocked!!!! You would be in your rights to take a pot shot at it, I know I don't think I could do that either but you give people the benefit of a warning and they do nothing, trouble is it is hard to keep dogs out of your land. Hope it gets sorted soon.
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Hi Rosemary, sorry to hear that its awful. I know its difficult when its a neighbour but I think you should report it to the police. The incident should at least be registered by them for future reference. It could be worse next time.
Jim
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that is soooo frustrating, Rosemary. As you say it wouldnt be have so bad if it was a fox, they have to fight for survival, but a dog that is not properly controlled is a menace.
My sister had an incident a few weeks ago when a local woman was walking her dog and they met my sister with her collie, Millie (on the lead) The Japanese Iketa attacked Millie with such force that Millie's collar was broken as she was thrown around.
My sister was shocked but decided to let it go because the woman only lived up the road and sis did not want to cause upset with neighbours. That was until another neighbour and her dog were attacked...then the police were called by both sis and that neighbour.
The Iketa woman then had the gall to make out that on both occasions it was the other dogs who attacked first. She said that Millie was not on the lead. and that sis was not taking care of where she was going.
Ahem!! Ehhhh!!! Sis was actually on our own property, walking up our own lane towards the road. Iketa lady was on our land and seems to think that she has the right to let her dogs loose on our ground...attack our animals....and that we should be the ones who have to restrict our animals and our own movements. Because she has counter accused the police can do nothing!! oh it was also because there were no witnessess. So always have a camera crew with you for future evidence
Emma
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Rosemary
I am horrified. I can't imagine how you feel. If there is anything I can do to help let me know. I think you should maybe 'pop' along and 'ask' if the owner saw anything and see what he has to say for himself...
:'(
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That is so awful, I am so sorry. I would be so angry that I would have to approach the neighbour and have "it out". What a needless disaster!
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I am really sorry to hear your news Rosemary. It is an awful thing because like you, we love our animals and birds, and any loss is terrible. Last Autumn I bought two pairs of young Brahmas - They had only been with us a couple of days, when some friends came visiting with their Cocker Spaniel. I love dogs, but he boisterous and lept over the fence and had killed one of them is less that two minutes of arriving. All our friends could say was 'that is why we have ours behind fences'. I too was devastated as you are. Others do not see how important our livestock is to us or understand the attachment that we have with them. Well, after all it is only a chicken!!!!
Kate :chook: :(
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Sorry but you must get the dog destroyed. It may well cause further problems but its the only option if you have already given them a chance. Good luck.
flipflopper
I'm sorry for your loss Rosemary, but I disagree entirely with flipflopper. You cannot destroy a dog because it kills birds, it is a natural instinct. What you can and should do is tell the owners to retrain it and that can certainly be done. I saw Cesar Milan doing it just last week. It is not difficult. Did you read my story of my ducks being retrieved? I could have lost all of mine and it would have been my own fault for leaving the gate open. I am lucky that my dogs are trained to retrieve birds alive, or to retrieve shot ones without crushing them, NOT to kill. (in the gundog world that is called pegging and is an elimination in a trial) My dogs when they picked up my ducks all came back to the recall whistle and presented the birds into my hand unharmed (except for the drake whose leg was wobbly for a day or to due to being dropped by my little bitch as he was too heavy for her)
What you must do is let the owner know in no uncertain terms that you will be sending the bill for the loss and that if you see the dog out anywhere without it's owner it will be caught and penned. You must let them know that you will not tolerate this again.
Unless the dog is classed as dangerous (in human terms) you cannot kill it.
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Awful news Rosemary, what a terrible thing to discover. Some people are so inconsiderate, if it was my dog I would be so ashamed. I would have been round with flowers, wine and cheque book. The dog needs a better owner.
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That's really what i was trying to get across - it's not the dog's fault, it's the owners.
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I have to admit with doganjo - its down to the the dog's owners to responsible. It doesn't help you in your situation now - having to deal with the devastation - but they are at least responsible and should recompense your lost at least with major apologies.
Certainly report it to the Police, as you may find that other people have problems with the same dog/owner. If they get enough complaints they they are obliged to contact the RSPCA and they may take further action.
Please don't let it lie, make sure you are heard!
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Rosemary, you can have my four LS if you want. I'm sure Carol and Graham won't mind. I can get more ex batts sometime.
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I feel for you, Rosemary.
One of our neighbours' dogs broke into the bunny's run and killed it. Trouble is that you can hardly ever prove it, even if the culprit comes back to the scene of the crime. The owners are just going to say "I don't think so" unless you have him by the collar...:&>
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I must sound heartless BUT, the farmer up the road from us, shoots dogs that chase his sheep,or any that get into his field, no second chances. When we have been out for walks there people have told s which dogs have been shot, I am not going there at the momemnt as Ben is very young and he may go into the field, so, that certainly stopsme. Now I could not shoot a dog, your right, it is the owners, they need shooting but you would end up in jail, hardly worth it really, we used to have a dog that looked like Bruce, he used to wander the street and bite people as well as terrorise all other dogs and Pooh everywhere, the owners were told loads of times, I saw the Dog Warden at their house, then, t all stopped, the dog burnt in a house fire, It must have been horrid for that dog but, as I said, the owners did not care at all, they would leave their dog out to wander, the only way to put a final stop is to put a warning notice on your gate and then, sadly, you my have to shoot it, after all, they are your livestock and your pets......I'm not a hard person, honest ;)
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So sorry Rosemary - a horrible thing to have happened.
Friends of mine have been having a smilar problem, and have installed a cctv camera to watch the main area. It doesn't stop the immediate prolem, but gives the police evidence to work on.
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Warn the owners, in writing, that if the dog is seen to be attacking your stock again you will use ANY means to protect your livestock. Agreed it is the owners responsibility to control the animal but once a dog gets the habit of worrying it is not easy to retrain it. Particularly if the owners cant control it already.
I lost a good pedigree calf to a dog which attacked it shortly after birth. I dont shoot because I choose not to but if I had had a gun that day I would have shot that dog. The owner was warned and the farmer next door shot it three months later after it attacked his sheep.
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It is NOT difficult to retrain a dog! Everyone has the right idea though - tell the owner that you believe their dog is responsible and that you will take action if it is seen near your property again. You could say you were going to install CCTV too.
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So sorry Rosemary, that is awful news. I hope the owner doesn't make things worse by having a bad attitude. We have a public footpath running through our land and have seen people letting their dogs off the lead as soon as they get over the style into our field, we have been lucky not to have any chasing so far. We did have a fox pacing up and down the electric fence a couple of days ago!
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Thanks all. The police were very sympathetic but I don't think they will be able to do anything as no-one actually saw the deed done. The WPC suggested putting up CCTV and we may do that.
I don't want the dog killed. Ours have rounded up our neighbours sheep before ( since ours refuse to play that game) although I keep Tess on the lead as she's not always reliable.
I think the worst bit is that I feel let down by these folk. We're not friends with them but we've always passed the time of day etc etc.
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Hi Rosemary
have you spoken to the dog owners? what have they had to say about things? I take it you have spoken to them about previous incidents when it was seen chasing your hens?
if no one actually saw anything, can i ask why you suspect it was this dog? What was the circumstantial evidence
i'd be raging, but it would be down to the attitude of the dog owners on whether or not i'd want it put down - if they have no interest, i'd have the dog shot, otherwise it's not going to get any better - and why should you go to the cost of additional fencing/security - never mind the stress/worry.
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I'm sorry but I'd have to take the zero tolerance approach to this. I'd have to concern over the attitude of the dog owners, their remorse etc. if it was proven that their dog killed my chickens then it'd be put down end of. Ultimately dogs are domestic animals therefore their owners have a legal responsibility to ensure that they do not run amok, if they do then therefore they cannot control them so they should not have them.
It's like people that you see on the hills with their dogs off leads & when they try to "whistle" them in as they come bounding over to you nothing happens, then even when all they do is like your hand the owner says (with a smile on their face) "ach they are a big softy". NO - I don't a problem with dogs but my partner does so if this happens when I'm out with her I will take to task the owner and quote the Dangerous Dogs Act at them re ALL dogs must be kept under control when in public places.
Sorry to get on my high horse, but I'm totally sick of "dog lovers/owners" trying to duck the issue as well as fed up stepping in shite everywhere!!!!!!
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There are laws in this country, hadn't you heard?
It is legal for a farmer to shoot a dog which is caught chasing his sheep. It is legal for the Police to restrain a dog which is shown to be dangerous. It is then legal for a case to be brought against the owner - NOT the dog!
The Courts will then decide whether the dogs should be put down - not you, not me, not Rosemary, not the Police - the Court! It is not legal for the general public to take these laws into their own hands.
Under control means JUST that - if a dog recalls to its owner it is under control. If it walks at heel off lead, it is under control. I'm really sorry about your partner being frightened of dogs - she must have had a bad scare, but even that can be trained out. My son-in-law was terrified of dogs when my daughter first met him. He is very much not frightened of them now. As he once said "if you fancy the pants off someone, a herd of elephants won't put you off - your dogs are no problem."
So, logically, and without emotion, I put to you what Rosemary and Dan's options are - 1) talk to their neighbour and tell them of their suspicions 2) assess their response 3) if then necessary at that point to install and look at CCTV footage and take action as recommended by the Police and/or RSPCA.
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as well as fed up stepping in shite everywhere!!!!!!
Why do they pick it up in a bag and then chuck it in the hedge where it hangs like an alternative xmas decoration??
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as well as fed up stepping in shite everywhere!!!!!!
Why do they pick it up in a bag and then chuck it in the hedge where it hangs like an alternative xmas decoration??
i hate this - a wee parcel of shite that'll never degrade, it'll be hanging there for centuries to come, perectly preserved in polythene
i wonder if in years to come archeologists will find these little plastic parcels of poop and wonder what kinda deviants we were!!!
"in the 21st century, it was considered good luck to have your dog poop in a bag and hang it at the entrance to public parks"
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Funny this, I was actually speaking to Eric our animal Welfare Officer yesterday on this very subject. He used to have the Clacks FREE poop bags printed with the message that the bag was biodegradable. He said he had stopped doing this for that very reason. Gartmorn dam is 'littered' with green bags - as Eric said yesterday - at least they'll always be evergreens ;) Joking aside, I am horrified at this - there are numerous dog bins in Clackmannanshire, far more than I've seen anywhere else. So why people go to the effort of picking the mess up then leaving the bag I don't know - WHO do they think is going to collect all tease ornaments? It would actually biodegrade quicker outwith the bag - just left in the undergrowth.
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Rosemary am very sorry for the shock and pain losing your hens must have caused. I dont know if it would work, can you put electric fencing around the hen area at levels that the dog will get a strong shock. We too have had visits from irresponsible owners whose dogs have been let out of cars without any attempt at control, who then either laugh as their animals chase our water birds on our pond or worse (in my opinion) try to rip apart my hens.
Some of these people are actually bird owners themselves. Somehow they seem to lose all sense of responsibility when they take their dogs off their own premises.
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That is so heartbreaking, but I echo every sentiment about it being the owners fault and not the dogs. On another forum I regularly visit a young girl was riding her horse on the beach when it was attacked by a dog. The owner got it under control, only to let it off the lead again and for it to attach itself, by it's teeth, to the underside of the gelding. The owner just laughed.
Of my own dogs, our Border Collie is a minx for chasing all of the animals and has had our pet Rhody several times, but thankfully only held her down. I eventually got so fed up I borrowed a petsafe collar and after a few zaps with that she now steers well clear. Are the dog's owners approachable enough for you to suggest a training method? If not I think the electric fence of your own is a good solution.
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We had thirteen chickens killed today, between 9am and 12 - seven Hubbards, five Black Rocks and one Light Sussex. We know who the culprit is but can't prove it - the evidence is circumstantial. Unless the owners of the dog responsible come clean, we (and the police) are stuck, and I doubt if they will.
Last time we actually caught him chasing the hens, and were assured that he would not be allowed out loose again - until then, he was allowed to "free-range". Today, he slipped his chain. And we have thirteen fewer birds than we had yesterday.
I wouldn't have minded the fox as much.
Fortunately, my cream crested legbars were shut in their ark and our new lamb was shut in a small pen with him mum otherwise they would have got it too. The Hubbards were in a run that was demolished. Only three of our 10 survived and one of those is injured.
I don't really want the dog destroyed but if that's the only sure way of stopping this happening again, then that would be my choice. I suppose I just have to put it behind me because nothing will happen, but it's very sad and very frustrating nonetheless.
Wrong, you can demand the dogs are tested, for evidence of hen.
If, they are found to have "hen" in them or on them, then you can sue for malicious damage to your property,
these days, they /the authorities are putting ASBO'S on dogs, the owners are ultimately responsible and you should sue.
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ime not so sure you cannot shot a livestock worrying dog... you can for sheep etc.... ime not ashamed to say i have a shotgun and i would blow the brains out of any egg stealing crow, chick stealing magpie or rat which i have done, and any livestock killing fox or dog..... harry
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It's funny how we could shoot one anima but not another!!!!
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but i think you can if its a livestock killer..... i would .... i belong to an organisation thats give free legal advise i will ask them next week.. harry
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You can take any action deemed nessesary to prevent the dog from damaging/continuing to damage your stock. ANY stock. I stand by my previous post IF the owners wont take responsibility for their animal you are perfectly within your rights to protect your animals. Warn them that if you see it about to attack your stock you will take the appropriate action. You may be able to train the dog not to worry stock, (though personally I doubt it )you will never get the owners who cant be bothered now to make the effort to train it in the future.
If you have a gun even an air rifle take to patrolling your fields with it under your arm. They may take you seriously and improve their fencing. Its worth trying a bluff. ;)
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Like I said in another post, I love all animals and understand it is the owners responsibility BUT, I know so many people that are not at all bothered by the law, the basical do not care as most times they will be let off, the only way is to put up a warning sign andkeep to it, your animals are just as preciouse as the dog that killed them!!!! We do not tae our new dog to the nearest field as the owner would shoot to kill if he saw him even off the path yet alone worrying his sheep, it works. I am a firm beliver of keeping to my word and do not make idol threats, post a warning on your fence!!!!! and hope that it does not happen again as Iwould hate to be the one with the gun!!!!
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Rosemary, How awful to hear your terrible news. :'( The CCTV option does sound like a good idea as my worry would be that now the dog knows where to get some easy 'meat' he will definitely be back for more. At least if the dog returns it would caught in the act and you will have some evidence against it. Waiting around for next time would be a constant worry especially now you have your little lambs to worry about as well. Just a thought, can the Dog Warden do more than the Police to help in the mean time?
I wish you luck with what ever you decide to do and I will keep my fingers crossed we can help top up your bird numbers when our broody hen hatches some of your eggs in a couple of weeks! x x Gill
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Unfortunately the Dog Warden has even less teeth that the Police. However, a bill for the chickens re-inforced by a small claims threat might make them take notice. Small claims can be done over the internet.
I still disagree that the dog can be shot for killing chickens. It is natural for a dog to go after birds but not to go after sheep - they are classed differently. Chickens are not strictly speaking 'stock'. In any case, why should the dog suffer for the bad manners and irresponsibility of its owners? Far better to retrain and re-home.
It sounds horrible, but I have heard that a good way is to tie a dead chicken around the dog's neck [well out of its reach of course] for a day or two. Don't know if it would work or not or whether you could position the chicken so the dog couldn't reach it - maybe a muzzle on the dog would work.
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A friend of mine tried that, the dog (a springer spaniel) ate the chicken. I dont know how you could effectively tie the chicken to the dog without the dog getting it.
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A greyhound muzzle would work
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I still disagree that the dog can be shot for killing chickens. It is natural for a dog to go after birds but not to go after sheep - they are classed differently. Chickens are not strictly speaking 'stock'. In any case, why should the dog suffer for the bad manners and irresponsibility of its owners? Far better to retrain and re-home.
Dogs are decendants of wolves. The sheepdogs herding instinct is a controlled form of hunting. Of course its natural for dogs to go after sheep.
Gamekeepers are allowed to shoot dogs after their "stock" whats the difference between a pheasant and a chicken??
I agree that the dog shouldnt suffer and the owners are at fault but if the owners wont take responsibility and they wont give the dog up(it is their dog) then an out of control animal must be controlled and if as a last resort it has to be shot so be it.
Why should this ladies stock be stressed any more and her livelhood be put at risk.
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Well,I think we'll leave Rosemary and Dan to decide on that one, will we?