The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: amscott on March 06, 2012, 08:59:17 am
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Hello Accidental Smallholders! This is my first post. I'm just looking to have a general conversation about our Sow. We were offered her cheap with the 4 OSB weaners we bought. She was getting bullied by the other sows and was very thin. She was in pig when we got her (cost £100, OSB but not birth registered) and recently gave birth to just 4 piglets. This was our first farrowing and to be extra sure we did call the vet in to double check that there were no piglets still in there. I am assuming that because she was in bad condition, she had only very few piglets?
Also, how long do sows live, and what do you do with them when they are too old? She was born in 2007 and this was her 10th litter (her records show she has always had 10+ piglets). Any info, views welcome
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I think you're probably spot on with your assumption that she was in such bad condition thats the reason behind her small litter, also if she was being bulied sows under stress sometimes reabsorb some of their litter during early pregnancy.
I would suggest you keep her well fed; while she has piglets you'll be giving her extra food anyway but she needs that to feed her young so don't skimp on it, and when weaned from her litter give her a cycle or two off to rebuild her condition and i would keep her on 6lb(2.7kg) food per day plus supplements of fruit & veg if you can after weaning. At 5yrs old she still has a good few litters in her if you can keep her in good condition, her litters will naturally become smaller but in the current climate this can be a blessing. Then get her back to the boar and take it from there.
HTH
Mandy :pig:
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As you suspect one of the most likely casues of a small litter is poor condition. Alongside this, if she was bullied early in pregnancy, the eggs can fail to implant on the wall of the uterus.
Obviously you will never know, but given her history of larger litters, I would work on getting good condition back before next mating.
Pigs can live for quite a few years. As to when you stop breeding from her, this is a subjective decision, which you would base on things like how able she is to take a mating (eg condition of back legs); how well she is coping with litters; size of litters; number of litters she has had (less intensively bred pigs can give good litter sizes longer); how well she is able to feed them (teat condition, mastitis, ability for her to create milk); what your aims are (pig to make profit, break even, just be a pet) and probably many more.
When ours have stopped being used for breeding, we send them for cull, via our local market. Of course you can keep them just as pets, or indeed sausage the whole pig (but that's a lot of sausages). Opinion on joints and other cuts from sows does vary (and not many people do this), but generally you would expect them be to tough.
(was typing at the same time as Mandy - hense repetition!)
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probably you paid to much for her in her condition what everybody else does is irrelevant it is your sow your circumstances your money sows can and do live for many years being productive is another matter with this being her first small litter the piglets will not draw her down and once back to the boar she may go back to large litters it is when she persistently has small litters or is difficult to get in pig that her days are numbered
cast sow prices will increase this year or should given that there is about 20% less sows going about nothing wrong with eating her yourself but do not sell at a market you are only making money for somebody the other option is to sell her to cheale meats you could then get what you paid for her
for a non registered pig she has been very productive and quite frankly should never have been breed from and is no great loss unless to you(we breed pedigree)
if you enjoyed the keeping her and farrowing get a pedigree in pig gilt and have her for many years :farmer:
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Welcome amscott :wave:, fellow OSB sow owner!
I just wanted to say that there are plenty of folks on here who think that only pedigree pigs should be bred from.
Personally I have no issue with a non-registered or even crossbred sow being used to produce meat pigs. And I have no issue with the meat pigs being crossbred either.
Declaring my interest - I have a pure-bred but unregistered OSB sow who has just reared a litter of stunning meat pigs, being crossed to a pedigree Saddleback (by AI.) The pigs were such fun, grew so well, and turned out so excellent in terms of fat cover, marbling, flavour and tenderness, that I am hoping to repeat the mating.
But then, I am a farmer, and my views on where rare breeds sit in the scheme of things are somewhat contentious! ;) :D
Enjoy your pigs, do what is right for you and for that sow with her. :thumbsup: And don't be bullied by anyone on here - including me! ;) :D
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if the sow is not birth registered how has she got a breeding record and what credence can there be from this breeding record
if every pig breeder was to cross and recross with whatever is available there will be no gene pool left to extract from if there is a major disaster in the farming world surely even you sally can see that even you are using pedigree seamen :farmer:
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Amscott, many of us do keep pedigree pigs (and some more than others are biased that way) but there is nothing wrong as Sally says in having an unregistered sow providied you don't sell their offspring as pedigree. Out of interest were the breeding records you have kept by the previous owner?
As Sally also says enjoy your girl and get her fit for purpose again. Having only four piglets this time means they shouldn't take so much out of her and you can get her back to fitness in a relatively short time. She will give you many years of enjoyment, pigs are very lovable and you sound like you really care for her (getting the vet in to check above & beyond many wouldn't :thumbsup: well done you) so make the most of her experience and you can learn together.
HTH
Mandy :pig:
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Thank you so much for the replies, I really do appreciate them, and all the advice.
Sorry , I wrote she was not registered, I meant birth notified- she is actually pedigree stock and has all her records but she was not notified with the breed book, or rather vice versa, I'm confusing myself here, help?
As she is our first sow, it's all a learning curve, and very enjoyable so far (I never thought I'd feel so at home with my arm up a sow's uterus!). The vet remarked that the old girl is in really good condition now, and we are very happy with her bracken destroying and ploughing skills if nothing else.
It has been slowly dawning on us that we are very unlikely to make any money from our pigs, however I am keen to get a gilt in the future, probably OSB pedigree, even though I had a chat with the OSB man from Arran, near us in Argyll, who just had to shoot 6 of his sows as there is no market at all for the pork here in the West Coast.
With Ramona, arhem, sorry I mean the old sow, I would like to try AI after she has had a few free cycles,but I have been told that it is very tricky to get right (I'm a trained nurse, would this make a difference?). We will breed from her as the meat is mostly for ourselves, and friends, and although I can see the argument for keeping pedigree stock, and I like the OSB's, our last weaners were tamworth crossed with Gl Old Spot and the meat was divine.
BTW how much would have a registered pedigree in pig sow cost? We are already £'s down but the learning experience is invaluable ;)
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I too see nothing wrong in breeding from unregistered stock, and crossbreeding providing that you are not mis-selling. This still creates demand for purebred registered stock, adn crossbreeders freqently move into a particular breed and go registered as they progress.
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It has been slowly dawning on us that we are very unlikely to make any money from our pigs,
just pretend...lol
With Ramona, arhem, sorry I mean the old sow, I would like to try AI after she has had a few free cycles,but I have been told that it is very tricky to get right (I'm a trained nurse, would this make a difference?). We will breed from her as the meat is mostly for ourselves, and friends, and although I can see the argument for
its not that difficult at all. u just need to spend time everyday noting ur sows seasons. its timing that is crucial but we managed on our 2nd ever attempt. Dorothy has had 2 litters from 3 AI's.
:wave: :wave: :wave:
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Thank you so much for the replies, I really do appreciate them, and all the advice.
Sorry , I wrote she was not registered, I meant birth notified- she is actually pedigree stock and has all her records but she was not notified with the breed book, or rather vice versa, I'm confusing myself here, help?
With Ramona, arhem, sorry I mean the old sow,
Ramona is a great name and no shame in her having a name! I have Twinkle & Clover!
If she has all her records it probably means she is registered (birth notes precede registering they are like a pigs birth certificate and registration is like getting a passport ) on her breeding record does she have a posh pedigree name and does it give her parentage if it does the she's pedigree and you may be able to look her up on the BPA website tick both the dead & alive boxes as they kill off pigs even though they are alive. Google british pig association, click on pedigree pigs and then choose online herdbook.
Sounds like she's been well looked after and has found a good home, can't help on the AI thing as its never worked for my pigs but Sally has used it with success so no doubtshe'll be along to explain all the gory details.
HTH
Mandy :pig:
ps forgot to say none of us makes money form our pigs we just don't tell our husbands ;D
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a lot of people buy birth notified pigs it is explained to them they are for meat only not breeding breeding is a different price and not all piglets make the grade
registered is just that fancy name all the parentage and dates etc if you buy a registered pig you must join the bpa to get that pigs details transferred to you either that or it becomes a pig a lot of people make this mistake
the guy that shot the sows that was a dead loss to him and could have been worth the trip to the mainland for the cast sow trade
nothing wrong with Ramona it is better than some old sows get called ;) :farmer:
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Hi again amscott :wave: My girl is (Long) Meg, "MeeeeEEEEGGGGG-PiiiiiiiiigggGGGGG" when she's the other end of the paddock. She comes a-running, ears flapping, looooong body see-sawing - we get visitors come just to see Meggy run to them for a banana! :D
BH loves my pigs and is very happy that we have a huge amount of enjoyment out of them and eat fabulous pork that costs less overall than it would if we bought it from the butcher. Since we enjoy every second we spend with them, we do not include anything for our time in the costings!! Rather, the enjoyment we and our visitors get from them is yet another intangible asset! :D
can't help on the AI thing as its never worked for my pigs but Sally has used it with success so no doubt she'll be along to explain all the gory details.
I did get her to hold to AI, second time of trying, yes. We only got 5 piglets as we only managed to get it to work properly the once and it's best to do it three times over 36 hours.
I tried again for another litter after Christmas but failed miserably. I blame BH's technique - he gets me to do the business end so he has to do the 'stimulation' bit and frankly, he's a bit Bruce about it. ;) :D (By which I mean to allude to a stereotypical Ozzie bloke's foreplay, "Sheila? You awake?" rather than in any way impune Karen's OH!!! )
I haven't tried again yet as I had a reason for not wanting a litter now until July. So I am hoping to catch her and have another go in a couple of weeks time, lambing and calving allowing... maybe it's more realistic to aim for five weeks hence... And maybe I'd be best to book the cattle AI guy to do the business end and I'll do the soft lights and music... ;) :D
Deerpark do pedigree rare breed (and not so rare breed too) fresh semen:
http://www.deerpark-pigs.com/ (http://www.deerpark-pigs.com/) but it's best to ring them to ask about available breeds, or indeed anything else - they're very friendly and helpful. Remember though that the semen is fresh - and if you don't want to use it for a few days it needs to be stored somewhere not too hot but not in the fridge (which is the main reason my first attempt didn't work ::))
Deerpark's instructions are very helpful, as is this website:
http://pigsinfrance.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=47&Itemid=75 (http://pigsinfrance.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=47&Itemid=75)
its not that difficult at all. u just need to spend time everyday noting ur sows seasons. its timing that is crucial but we managed on our 2nd ever attempt. Dorothy has had 2 litters from 3 AI's.
princesspiggy - you've been more successful than me; do you have any tips to share?
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its not that difficult at all. u just need to spend time everyday noting ur sows seasons. its timing that is crucial but we managed on our 2nd ever attempt. Dorothy has had 2 litters from 3 AI's.
princesspiggy - you've been more successful than me; do you have any tips to share?
dorothy has caught 2 out of 3 attempts.but then wev had 2 fails from pepper, one fail from belle, and one fail from delilah (who wasnt that well). but i was a complete beginner at it so it is possible but can be quite costly when u add it up. iv found the GOS much harder to identify there seasons than the tamworths. and thats where u can trip up. u really have to check twice daily and record it for a few months so u can predict the next seasons. unfortunately ours seem to be ready at weekends, xmas day, newyears day, and any bank holidays possible which resulted in us ordering a bit too late or a bit too early.
i didnt think dorothy had caught so we bought a boar - but she did - even though alot ended up on the floor, but is it not 4 billion sperm per bottle - or something like that. all my girls have stood with a bucket of feed so that part hasnt been difficult. just accurate timings is the crucial thing. but then dorothys seasons were a bit slow in autumn so might have fallen quicker with resident boar. ?
really pleased with the deerparks tamworth cos the piglets are little crackers, tho quite darker in colouring.
we'l try and breed pedigree with pepper(gos) after she has her first litter of tam-spots.
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Yes, I am delighted with Deerpark's Saddleback boar. Strong healthy growy lovely-natured pigs who have been an absolute delight to know. And eat. Even my butcher approves, and he's a tough audience.
Do you get a real 'stand', pp? And then do the services 12, 24 and 36 hours after she first stands? I know when
Meg's in season, but I can't identify that 'moment', because broadly, she'll stand for a bit of fuss pretty much any time! Hence I worry about trying too soon, don't persevere in case I'm too early, then end up being too late and missing it ::)
I am pretty comfortable and confident with the mechanics of doing the AI, but as pp says, the timing is crucial and I'm not good enough at it yet.
Maybe I am trying too hard to get the timing spot on, and letting her munch a bucket of sow rolls would be better than BH footling on... food for thought.
Thanks for the details, pp - as you say, at £25-ish per time, it can get expensive if we have one or more failures for every success. In my case, we couldn't really manage our own boar, I struggle to have enough separate pig-friendly areas as it is. Going to or hiring / borrowing a boar is less appealing because of trying to work the rest of the farm around the standstill, but it's something I may have to consider if I don't get it right next time.
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i aim to ai 24 hrs after the vulva has swollen up, mine will stand more than normal but not rock solid - dorothy is better tempered when in season so i can lean on her rump without her complaining, whereas on a normal day she'l curse and move away.
i just feed them. they dont even seem to notice the ai at all. the gos are less obvious when they swell up and more even tempered everyday hence why i get the timing wrong.
much easier having a fulltime boar but he still eats alot!! less worry tho. i wouldnt like the responsibilty of someones elses boar incase something happened to him.
deerpark have delivered ontime every time but sometimes the blasted postman takes the parcel back to the depot which stuffs it all up, especially if its sat morning...tss
;D ;D :wave:
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I've only, until recently, reared bought-in weaners for pork. I don't add up the cost :o am just thankful for all the "Happy" meat.
Now I have my sows I think, with selling some of the weaners (Kune-Kune) I may be near to breaking even. With the remainder, I have a firm order with a restaurant so may even see, maybe a fiver profit ::)
As to what will become of "the girls" when their breeding days are over I won't think about now. I will, more than likely, keep them 'til it will be kinder to have them P.T.S. I love them :)
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Thanks pp, very helpful to know someone else's experiences :)
We are blessed with helpful sensible posties (unless all the usuals are on hols), thankfully. Deerpark even sorted me out successfully when I knew I'd need semen between Christmas and New Year! ::)
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Another thing which is a huge help getting the timing of AI right is to use Boarmate spray on the main day you think they are on heat - ie. swollen vulvas, responding to stimulation, standing or nearly standing still, weird behaviour and manically active ears (particularly Tamworths). A spot of mucus on or just inside the vulva is an even better sign. If they are up for it, they respond very noticeably to the spray, either freezing there and then, or showing you excessive attention as if you were the boar. (At other times when they are not ready for mating they are completely disinterested in the spray.) We always AI not at feeding time, as they are far too busy rooting around for every last nut, and usually wait for an hour or so when they are no longer hungry and not obsessed with eating. When you have got the timing just right and spray the Boarmate near their nose, they stand stock still for 10 minutes, like a frozen statue out of Chronicles of Narnia, and do not move a muscle while you are doing the AI, even with very little back pressure. We always do the three doses, am/pm/am, or pm/am/pm, the first as soon as they respond positively to Boarmate, and often find that by dose 3 they are starting to lose interest and cannot be persuaded to stand still for very long. So far we have done AI four times and have had four first go successes. The instructions that come with the Deerpark semen are excellent, and each time we have had a bit of leakage at the end - so obviously this does not affect the end result. You can get Boarmate spray from Animal Health, address on internet. We try not to overuse the spray so they don't get too over familiar with it. HTH Tamsaddle
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from previous posts we are all for the real McCoy the most obvious is the cost 2 or 3 failed attempts and you are not far short of the price of a boar 4 breeding sows you are not long in eating away at a big chunk of money
hiring a boar a good one is easier and not much more than one failed AI session yes you have to feed it and there is collection and all that our Tamworth boar is still out on his tour of Scotland from last Sept it all down to the individual breeder :farmer:
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from previous posts we are all for the real McCoy ........................all down to the individual breeder :farmer:
Agree with Robert i spent a good couple of hundred quid on AI, got proper pig men in to do it and no luck! Its why i have a boar and to keep him occupied we do sow B&B, this way i know where he is and who's using him, he has a palatial bio-security pad specially for his visiting ladies and touch wood we have had very few problems. He'll be available mid - end of April if anyone's interested, see GOS website for details or message me on here.
Mandy :pig:
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In our set up having our own boars wouldn't work at all. To start with we have 2 Tamworths sows and 2 Saddlebacks only and don't want to cross breed, so 2 different boars would be needed with absolutely impenetrable fencing to prevent accidents happening with the wrong pigs. In the last month our two younger gilts have been serviced directly as AI was impossible (the only Deepark semen available is that of their respective sires), one going off to a boar a 2 hour drive away, and the other boar visiting us. What with the hire charge, cost of feed and fuel getting there and back twice, the cost for each one was about £80, as oppose to £28 from Deerpark including the postage. Another big problem is finding suitable boars for hire, the right size, the right bloodline, and a holding which is open to visiting pigs - most places near us are entirely closed and do not want to run the risk of any unknown diseases or 21 day standstills. Tamsaddle
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a boar does not suit every situation or breeder and it is not just a simple case of any female will do you have to forward plan the lines that both are from and what other breeders there are with the same breed it will get to saturation point when your lines have to be changed or there is inbreeding
when we started with Tammie's dreamboy was the boar line we used and most of the Tammie's that are pedigree can be traced back to our breeding in Scotland there have been others that have imported other lines to Scotland since but mainly female
welsh pigs there are only two herds in Scotland
lops there are lops on an island and we have one and there may be one other herd up north
Duroc only males in Scotland
Hampshire only two herds and they are closely related
gos breeders have to go down south to get quality and not always with results
potential breeding problems for a shed load of breeders that deerpark cant solve
as to shutdown i cant hammer this enough every breeder should have isolation facility's proper registered ones :farmer:
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as to shutdown i cant hammer this enough every breeder should have isolation facility's proper registered ones :farmer:
I echo this, its easy to get an isolation unit checked out speak to your vet, they assess your set up and then put in a report to your nearest AH and they issue your certificate. Google isolation unit defra for info on the set up required. We use our unit both for visiting ladies to our boar and thro' out the show season. Takes a lot of juggling sometimes but generally we manage. Big wall chart, coloured pens and head scratching! ;D
Mandy :pig:
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if planning on using an isolation pen for showing, is a separate paddock enough with respect to show preparation etc.
we have a little paddock and sty that is suitable for isolation etc as easy access and not near our other pigs. but couldnt see a clean show pig coming out of there. we have a concrete courtyard that would be better with showing in mind but wouldnt be suitable for covering visiting sows. do AH let u have 2 separate isolation pens? and do they charge you when applying?
ta
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isolation means just that isolated you can have one in the middle of a field if you want it just has to be double fenced a specified distance apart and no possibility of any animal touching noses
two isolation facility's would require two applications or at least two acceptances from AH
the animals go into isolation for 6 days before mixing with the rest of the herd show grounds are treated as isolation facility's and theoretically you can move from one isolation unit to another without triggering a standstill period free in Scotland in England your vet has to come and see the isolation facility's so that would incur a cost better to wash them before leaving then it is only a tidy up at the show and there is always a Que to get to the wash facility's not in Scotland we don't have any :farmer:
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What you have no wash facilities in Scotland Robert. Not invented taps yet. ;D
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just wait till the English government see sense and have a pipline for water to irrigate the deserts of eastern England you will know all about taps and faucets then :D :D :farmer:
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isolation means just that isolated you can have one in the middle of a field if you want it just has to be double fenced a specified distance apart and no possibility of any animal touching noses
touching noses with other pigs? or other animals?
my little paddock is away from the pigs but bordered by sheep, ponies and cows. is electric acceptable fencing to be approved?
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PP try this link its from the berkshire pig club but they won't mind should have al the info you need.
http://www.berkshirepigs.org.uk/conditions.htm (http://www.berkshirepigs.org.uk/conditions.htm)
also
http://archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/movements/documents/livestock_movement_controls-review.pdf (http://archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/movements/documents/livestock_movement_controls-review.pdf)
Find page 37 annex d
HTH
Mandy :pig:
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In England & Wales, isolation is for 20 clear days, so much longer than scotland.
Approved isolation is important if you take pigs to shows and don't want to be on standstill for 20 days.
However we would also recommend isolation (although doesn't need to be approved) for any stock that you bring back from a show, or if you bring stock in for mating (eg sows coming in for boar hire), or for returning boars from being lent out, and if you are breeding when you introduce new stock to the herd.
Getting isolation approved used to be free in England (don't know about Wales & Scotland), as AHVLA paid the vets fee. Not sure about it now, am just getting a new ones approved, so when I do or don;t get the bvets bill, will let you all know.
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are you sure oaklands it is in the back of my memory box that England differed from Scotland and was written about extensively on the e aml subject England had no back up plan if disease struck Scotland had a longer shut down period and was a better system unless they have changed it since its introduction
it has to be approved ( isolation facility's)or any man and his dog could say anything
it was free in Scotland last year and on renewal :farmer:
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Hi, interesting thread, We first bought a registered British lop sow, Lucy, in pig, fantastic breed, easy placid etc, only ever registered 3 gilts for breeding out of 4 litters, one of which we kept, Lola, the problem we now find is that like a lot of other people getting anyone to pay £40 for a weaner is getting near impossible ::) The last litter Lola had was a cross with an OSB the only boar we could get at the time, we did manage to sell 11 of the weaners but that was at £30 each. We just can't afford to keep the sows any more and we are going back to just buying in weaners, so sad as I really love my girls :'(
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hang on in there there is an overall 20% reduction in pigs £30 a piglet you are losing money :farmer:
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I know we are loosing money but I don't want to feed them for another month and still only get £30.
We have a friend who due to very tragic circumstances was left on her own with 22, 7 month old unregistered GOS meat pigs for sale and she stuggled to get £50 each and indeed still has 11 hogs left now aged 8 months and impossible to get any buyers, another friend took 3 good ready to slaughter lop meat pigs to Newark market and ended up with £42.50 each :'(
Take a look at Pre-loved, you can barely give pigs away at the moment
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there must be a local buyer for cheale or other processor's you will get a lot more better than you are getting it than some fly by night shark :farmer:
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Prices in Devon at our local smallholder's market last Saturday. TamworthX Old Spot, 20 weeks old £16 apiece. "Saddleback" weaners(some were almost all saddle) £8 apiece They were 9 weeks old. Some cracking looking Kunekune 12 weeks old, no takers at a fiver apiece.
I had to keep my hands firmly in my pockets!!!
I sold my Kunekune weaners for £40 apiece, no problem but I'm not counting on doing that next time.
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there must be a local buyer for cheale or other processor's you will get a lot more better than you are getting it than some fly by night shark :farmer:
just wondering - do cheale buy any finished size, as opposed to just the big ones, and how far do they travel to collect?
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waiting for them to get back with a price they start there journey from aberdeen :farmer:
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are you sure oaklands it is in the back of my memory box that England differed from Scotland and was written about extensively on the e aml subject England had no back up plan if disease struck Scotland had a longer shut down period and was a better system unless they have changed it since its introduction
it has to be approved ( isolation facility's)or any man and his dog could say anything
it was free in Scotland last year and on renewal :farmer:
Definately 20 days in E&W, before you can mix back in with herds.
England has a enzoootic contingency plan
My point on not having approved is that if you are using purely to introduce stock, rather than to avoid 20 day standstills, then it is a good policy to isolate stock coming in using the isolation principals, rather tha just chuck stock straight into the herd.