The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: smudger on March 04, 2012, 10:59:14 am
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Any suggestions / recommendations for a first timer? Should we get an older experienced dog/bitch, perhaps needing a lighter workload or a puppy we can socialise then get trained up (either sent away or we get trained or a bit of both).
We do have a young daughter, so slight reservation about introducing an older dog as has been recommended to us (on basis can see it working and its true temprement).
We don't have a desperate need for one right now in terms of sheep handling (can rope husband in as a two legged equivalent, but lets face if not as pretty....) so have the time to wait for one to be trained up.
Before anyone responds do I need one, there are other reasons for having a dog: foxes, security, companionship (I am on my own almost 12 hrs a day, and occasional weekends not to mention the late night trawl round fields late at night and in fowl weather).
Whats the going rate for :
a part trained young dog
puppy from working stock
older experienced dog.
many thx
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As a novice (I'd never owned a dog) I went for a trained dog, so that at least one of us would have a clue! I have been on a few days training *with* her too, there is no point training one part in isolation; the whole point is to develop a partnership.
There's a lot more to it than come-bye and away! :o
Look for ISDS registered, so you know dog is from registered working lines. Do you know anyone that could come with you and see the dog working? You need to at least try to work the dog yourself; you need to be on the same wavelength. There are dogs that need a stronger shepherd, and there are nervy wee things that need the calm, quiet touch.
Get in touch with Trialling sheepdog owners/breeders - they will often sell on dogs that are good workers but not up to trialling standards (my little bitch is scared of crowds/audiences ::) ).
I paid £500 and the general reaction was "wow you got a bargain!!" but she does have other issues.
To compare, the same person was selling a trained dog for £2000.
Top triallers can go for £5k+ :o
A good pup I think goes from say £300-£500?
I wouldn't risk an auction!
Yes it seems a lot, but this is a living, breathing "tool" that will work for you for 5-10 years. It needs to be right.
Good luck
(I wouldn't be without mine now :love: )
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a good dog is worth several thousand not every pup from working parents makes it if it is for more of a companion better getting a pup one that HAS been born and reared in a house environment
prices well it depends on how much you are prepared to spend and some working dogs will not work for there new owner both have to be trained to each other :farmer:
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Ooo that's a point, check whether the dog lives in or out! And what "life experience2 it has - buses, parks, crowded streets....
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You could also have a word with the peeps at Border Collie Trust GB, as although they are a rescue, they do have working dogs in on occasion. Farmers have to give up or cut back numbers etc, they might be able to help you out ;)
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Alan Bradley does 'sheepdog experience' days in the Lake District and also has dogs to sell.
http://www.lakedistrictworkingsheepdogs.co.uk/sheep-dog-handling-courses/ (http://www.lakedistrictworkingsheepdogs.co.uk/sheep-dog-handling-courses/)
I can thoroughly recommend the experience day to give you a feel for handling a dog, and if Alan has one he thinks may suit you you can try it out there.
Alan uses his own dogs and those he has for sale on his courses, so they get used to working for different people. He trains his dogs in different voices and accents so that they find it easier to adapt to different handlers!
I have always had dogs but had never had a working collie working sheep before (done agility and obedience but not herding sheep.) I got given a dog that 'knew what to do but didn't really have any commands' by a local friendly farmer, and, knowing I needed one I could command and that our farm needed at least two working collies, I also bought a part-trained one from Alan. Both dogs were a godsend, in different ways! ;D
When I was looking, dogs that could do the basics and weren't puppies any longer were £500 - £1000, fully trained dogs with farm experience were £1000 - £2000.
I do now know of people who can supply part-trained dogs at about £300; they are probably not registered but will be of locally-known working stock. They mostly will be live-out dogs; a lot of working collies don't settle well as house dogs, although most enjoy coming in for a bit of a treat for 20 minutes now and again.
Others will recommend Barbara Sykes' book, "Understanding your Border Collie"; I do now have a copy and am reading it. I like what I've read so far and I think for someone wanting a collie to be part companion / pet and part worker, it is probably a very good book to read.
You are right that some collies don't cope with small children very well - for me, that'd be a reason to get an older one whose temperament is already formed. If you got a pup and it decided later on it didn't like children...
The other advice I'd give is find a local sheepdog-handler-trainer who will work with you and your dog. My side of the country, I'm lucky enough to have Derek Scrimgeour, we've Katy Cropper in the county too and Tom Longton just over the border in Lancashire ; I'm sure I've seen someone recommend a one out your way but I can't recall who it was.
Good on you for doing some research and thinking it through, and getting some advice, before taking on one of these amazing, but rarely easy, creatures. :thumbsup:
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I have had sheep and dogs all of my life but have only once owned a working collie. I actually rehomed him when I cut my sheep numbers in 1996 as I could not provide enough work. A farmer friend who keeps cattle is having problems with his new young dog as she wants to work all the time and has taken up herding cars..... :o not a good idea!
I wouldn't ask do you need a dog...of course you do...dogs are great....just do you have enough work for a working collie? I have neighbours and they have several hundred sheep....but use a quad and a bucket! If you are up a mountain etc though its a bit different to down here!
Good luck!
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Thanks for advice / information everyone.
As much as it breaks my soft-centred heart, the dog will live out (albeit with a plush des res in the barn). I already have two white furry sofa-loving canines who won't cross the threshold the minute the woodburner is lit. If the collie was to be in then it would definitely be a pup.
Think the idea that I can road test a dog (either fully or part trained) is a good one, so will start with doing a course myself and put feelers out through the folks who breed and trial. I had a look at the BCT website, but they are based in Staffs which is too far way, plus most on the website had behavioural issues.
I'll trawl the internet for trainers in Devon/Somerset / North Cornwall, but its good to get a recommendation if anyone has one for someone in these areas. Also get onto Amazon and get a copy of 'Understanding your Border Collie'....
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I have 5 working collies from 2-13 yrs, 2are reg 3non reg it makes no differance to their ability, so far the dearest pup iv'e bought was £130 registered and it would not work and i gave it away as a pet. My last pup was £50 from a neighbour and works very well . A working dog must have something to stimulate it or they will chase anything and can become hyper
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Thanks for advice / information everyone.
As much as it breaks my soft-centred heart, the dog will live out (albeit with a plush des res in the barn). I already have two white furry sofa-loving canines who won't cross the threshold the minute the woodburner is lit. If the collie was to be in then it would definitely be a pup.
Think the idea that I can road test a dog (either fully or part trained) is a good one, so will start with doing a course myself and put feelers out through the folks who breed and trial. I had a look at the BCT website, but they are based in Staffs which is too far way, plus most on the website had behavioural issues.
I'll trawl the internet for trainers in Devon/Somerset / North Cornwall, but its good to get a recommendation if anyone has one for someone in these areas. Also get onto Amazon (http://www.amazon.co.uk/?tag=theaccidsmall-21) and get a copy of 'Understanding your Border Collie'....
Ah didn't realise you were down here. Go to the trials on Bodmin this summer and ask for 'Bill from Launston'!
I have no idea what his surname is, but he has some cracking dogs, will train other peoples dogs up, and train the owner.
I would think he is still on the scene, and he is a fab bloke. He felt sorry for me and my mate once when we were camping down that way watching the trials and invited us to pitch tent at his gaff. Then cos it got overcast, him and his lovely wife bedded us and our 6 (between us) dogs IN HIS SITTING ROOM :o :o AND fed us roast dinner followed by whiskey :thumbsup:
If you recite that tale, he should remember the person who is recommending him ;D
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Ah, smudger, I got myself confused and had you in N Yorks. ::) :dunce:
You've got David Kennard at Borough Farm near Woolacombe on the North Devon coast - he may well be too busy doing all his Mist stuff these days to help you himself, but I bet he can recommend you to someone else.
It was actually David who put me onto Derek Scrimgeour - I was down in Exmoor when I started looking for some help, the dog I was given is from there, and I initially approached David for help. He recommended Derek as being my local trainer once I'd moved; David himself has trained with Derek - and buys some of his dogs from him.
David's website : http://www.boroughfarm.co.uk/ (http://www.boroughfarm.co.uk/)
Oh - I've just read colliewoman's post - Bill from Launceston sounds just great, too! ;D
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Hi Smudger, I recently had a post on this forum regarding our young bc nipping and snarling at our 2 kids aged 8 and 10, totally unprovoked. As it has turned out our collie has taken to herding everything in site to a great degree including swimming round our pond herding all our ducks, constantly. She would make a fab working dog (she was from a local shepherd, cost only £100 just over a year ago) but her talents will be wasted somewhat here as we have very jumpy native breed sheep who don't behave like normal sheep. She just doesn't like our kids despite their gentleness with her and she was probably the wrong choice to have as a family pet but of course we have grown to love her. We are planning an outhouse for her in our ongoing building work but there is always a question mark over her head. If I found someone who was happy to take her as a working dog I would put pressure on my OH to let her go and get a different dog. Make your choice of dog wisely. If I had £1 for everyone who has told me they know a sheepdog that is nippy....don't mean to put you off but it's not all down to training, there are just traits in their nature. Good luck.
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They are nippy, yes - it's one of the very many things they do naturally that help them manage sheep. Argumentative sheep need a nip to the face - a good collie snaps the jaws closed just in front of the face as a warning; if not heeded, and so instructed, the dog will repeat the warning and make contact. Some collies, particularly those used with cattle, also snap behind the heels.
That quick SNAP of the jaws can be a danger with children, yes.
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Our first pet dog was a collie from working farm dogs - with no kids the natural nipping thing wasn't a problem - or rarely seen and she was a fantastic animal friendly and people friendly dog - although she once lunged for a passer by in the village for no reason - she had not problem with my newphew ages 4 and we have not long lost her at 18 - so all in all they can be great great, certainly great working dogs, live in or out, with or without kids, with or without sheep - I guess it down to the actual dog!! We now have Zip a male just 6 months and he certainly loves to herd things - ducks at the moment - they are getting used to flying off when he approaches!!
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Getting the right sort of temperament is key.
In my family we have always had collies as pets and working dogs. Right now we have 6 between us, 5 bred from the same parents, some living in, some out. They are all pretty bomb-proof with kids, from babies to big gangling teenagers, and love being with them.
Even so, we'd never leave unknown kids unsupervised with them. The kids in our extended family also know how to behave around dogs, as well as the collies knowing about kids.
And there are some collies I know who are only happy around calm, quiet adults and get very fraught and nippy in more stressful circumstances.
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well some collies can be nippers and others just don't bother no mater what the situation but it is training and there environment that brings it out or not
maybe we have been lucky with the dogs we selected to breed from and how quite and gentle that the pups are with there new family's :farmer:
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Border collies are very intelligent. I was finishing off a job one afternoon at a house and all I had to do was explain how the heating worked, then I was away for a longish drive home and my tea, so quite keen to get done and gone!
The dog, a collie, was barking and generally being a pain, the lady of the house stopped my explanation of her heating to go and put the telly on, explaining that "he likes to watch Blue Peter" I was amazed to see the dog lie down in front of the TV once it was on. She demonstrated that if you got the remote and put the other side on he went nuts until Blue Peter was back on then he lay down to watch.
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;D
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Some working dogs can become quite neurotic if not given the right stimulants. My sister got a BC pup but kept it as a house pet - it came from working stock and turned out snappy and hyper as it wasn't given enough to do, it ended up being PTS as it went for one of their kids :-\.
I have Australian Cattle dogs, another high energy and full-on breed. Their instinct to nip hind legs is very strong and many a time they have driven me mad trying to 'help' with the horses ::). They also hang onto your trouser legs if they are trying to get a point across ;D. I love them but they need loads of exercise otherwise they will often get up to no good ..
I also had a Lancashire Heeler, another cattle herding breed. He was an adorable little thing, no trouble, very obedient. But once we were walking in the woods and passed this woman who had very skinny legs and shorts on, and trainers with no socks. Well this little dog just nipped her as she was passing, and drew blood! :o He didn't do it in malice, he must have thought her legs looked rather cow-lke - we were mortified but thankfully she was quite good about it!
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If you decide to get a pup, I presume that you will be careful where you purchase - so many puppy farms out there or backstreet breeders breeding from completely unsuitable parents. This KC report is quite scary
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/4186/23/5/3 (http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/4186/23/5/3)
If you go for an older dog at least you should know what you are getting because their personality will have developed. If you went for a rescue dog - try to find out how many they get returned if you can - this shows how good they are at matching dogs to their new owners requirements. Some have a high rate of returns which is more upsetting for the dog.
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Hi Smudger :wave:
Hmmm.....Lots of views on this subject!
Well done for thinking through all the options - ??? Everybody is different and every dog is too -so getting the correct combination is very difficult.
I wouldn`t know where to start in advising you, but can only say, I if you have as much fun as I have over the last year with Meg I would get a pup. ;D
-I had hoped for Meggy to be a working dog and as she grew her natural instinct around the animals proved she would fit the bill.
There are times when I "pull my hair out though"- she is a typical collie ::) and is pretty hyper.This spring I am hoping to knuckle down and do some proper sheepdog training.
Today is actually her first Birthday and although I am a rufty tufty Farmer and expect her to work for a living We will be celebrating with a cake..(http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/ae26/thomsett_bucket/P3057023.jpg)
Happy Birthday Meg ;)
Best of luck to you Smudger
Tilly :wave:
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Happy birthday Meg ! :dog: :dog:
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Hi Tilly - it's Hayley from the old GFD forum but a newbie to TAS - it's good to see you and other fellow GFD breeders here... Anyhow Happy Birthday to Meg!
Smudger - I have a 15 month old BC from agility/show lines who is a pet but from day one was fascinated with the sheep and cows. She had a few sheepdog training sessions down in Cornwall whilst we were down there on hols last year and she showed real promise. So far I've not found any local trainers up in Derbyshire so for the time being she helps us round up the sheep in her own special way (not that Greyface Dartmoors ever respond that well to being rounded up!). So you can be surprised when a good 'un turns up. Best of luck with your search!
I don't suppose anyone knows of any sheepdog trainers in the Derbyshire/Cheshire/Staffs area??
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Totally never take on an older dog, it`s just someone elses problem. Raise a pup from 6 weeks. Even in the 1931 book I Bought a Mountain the author is advocating this and after many many sheepdog problems from bought in dogs our pups are now working well. There is no fasttrack answer to this. But there are lessons for you and your dog to attend as he or she grows.
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Totally never take on an older dog, it`s just someone elses problem. Raise a pup from 6 weeks. Even in the 1931 book I Bought a Mountain the author is advocating this and after many many sheepdog problems from bought in dogs our pups are now working well. There is no fasttrack answer to this. But there are lessons for you and your dog to attend as he or she grows.
Hi there and welcome :thumbsup:
But I totally disagree with you. Pups should not be away from the dam at 6 weeks so unless you are breeding them there is no way to raise a bc from 6 weeks. This isn't just my opinion, it is the law (Scotland may be different but I hope not)
As for other peoples problems, IMO For a newcomer to the sheepdog world, I would actively SUGGEST and older dog.
I have had both pups and older rescues (and an older dog doesn't have to be a rescue I know) and each of them I have loved with all my heart. My rescue bitch would have defended me to the death had she needed to. Her faults and reasons for being discarded? 'Oh she doesn't like other dogs, and doesn't like it when we throw balls at her'. That's right, not for her but AT her. Poor love, her only crime with me? Dying way too soon, she was supposed to live forever, we had an agreement :'(
She was/is missed dreadfully by all, including the dogs she lived with.
Anyhoo hi again ;D :wave:
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6 weeks is way to early to part from mother even at 8 weeks they are just starting to get there individual selves :farmer:
and nothing wrong with a rescue collie either we had one that was going to end its days tied to a boulder at the bottom of a pond it did not like children and never did but one bloody good guard dog and very friendly to adults :farmer:
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http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=21903.0;topicseen (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=21903.0;topicseen)
;)
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http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=21903.0;topicseen (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=21903.0;topicseen)
;)
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Would this be a god place to post gratuitous pics of my collie pup, Pip? He is now 11 weeks and was whelped in a house, but is slowly being relocated outdoors. Pip is not registered, but came from a local shepherd and is out of 'known stock' as it were.
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a314/Funky_Monks/2012-02-11213923.jpg)
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a314/Funky_Monks/2012-02-11122950.jpg)
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Oh Steve, I hate to be the one to tell you this, that dog is in the wrong home, but I have a solution :thumbsup:
SEND HIM TO ME AT ONCE!!! :love: :love: :love:
Enjoy every minute of his puppyhood it goes way too soon.
I miss puppy breath :love:
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I miss puppy breath :love:
He is something of a facelicker, as it goes...
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Would this be a god place to post gratuitous pics of my collie pup, Pip?
Anywhere would be a good place to post gratuitous pics of any pup ;D :love: :dog:
Pip's gorgeous - aahhhh :love:
Totally never take on an older dog, it`s just someone elses problem.
Re: older dogs, I think it wise to exercise caution, of course, but with working collies a significant proportion are sold as trained or part-trained dogs. Some dogs end up with the wrong kind of handler for them and need a rehome to find the right sort of handler, some are simply surplus to requirements and become available for sale, some are trained by triallists and found to be more suited to farm work than trialling, etc, etc. There are pros and cons with buying an older, trained or part-trained dog and there are pros and cons with buying a pup and either getting it trained or trying to train it yourself.
I started my sheepdog handling and shepherding career with two adult dogs, one which 'knew what to do but didn't really have any commands' and one part-trained. Both were clearly very friendly with people, which was important as there was to be a pre-teen at the farm. I was able to 'test drive' both dogs before commiting to them - in fact, I had a 'return if not satisfied' arrangement with the former, and bought the second from dealer who is also a trainer and a trainer of handlers, so the backup was there if there were any problems. (There never were, he was a tremendous dog.)
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;D Mine are 10 and 8 now but Pip's puppy pic brings it straight back ;D
And I love Meg's blue eye in her birthday pic! My Skerry has a half-blue eye, makes her look especially naughty, which of course is completely out of character ::)
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Found a couple of resources if anyone has any comments - post or pm.
http://www.allaboutsheepdogs.com/sheepdog-trainers.html (http://www.allaboutsheepdogs.com/sheepdog-trainers.html) (trainers in SW - possibly Bill from Launceston?)).
Emphasis is on training the dog with the owner, which is how we plan to do it.
DVD's: not cheap wondered if any good (not in lieu of training of course, but an insight into what we are getting ourselves committed to):
http://www.secondsightproductions.co.uk/shop/the-shepherd-s-pup (http://www.secondsightproductions.co.uk/shop/the-shepherd-s-pup) (Derek Scrimgeur)
http://www.herding-dog-training-border-collie-sheepdog-dvd.com/dvd_herding_first_steps_in_border_collie_sheepdog_training.htm (http://www.herding-dog-training-border-collie-sheepdog-dvd.com/dvd_herding_first_steps_in_border_collie_sheepdog_training.htm) (Andy Nickless)
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Found a couple of resources if anyone has any comments - post or pm.
http://www.allaboutsheepdogs.com/sheepdog-trainers.html (http://www.allaboutsheepdogs.com/sheepdog-trainers.html) (trainers in SW - possibly Bill from Launceston?)).
Emphasis is on training the dog with the owner, which is how we plan to do it.
That is a good site and Caroline Wooley is very very helpful - e-mail her if you are looking for a working dog and she will help you find one in your area.
I hear 'From Chaos to Control' is a good 'VD.
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I have had a few training sessions with Derek Scrimgeour over a period of years and find his Hill Shepherd and Shepherd's Pup DvDs, and his Talking Sheepdogs book too, to be very useful.
However, I think all trainers have their own style, and it could be counter-productive to be using books and DvDs from a trainer who has a very different style to the one you will be going to yourself.
If possible, choose your trainer and then get any resources they recommend. If you need to read some books or watch some DvDs before being able to choose / decide on your trainer, I'd see what your local library can do to help!